Also, to amend the may day joke part. There was at least 30,000 people there. Impressive.
But there's a problem. In Tehran there was 500,000. So there's a communication problem. However, at the same time, we're at 8% unemployment in this country. So the question remains. What DOES the popular consensus want? Anything? And if it was just 30,000, what would the numbers have been like if the Saya and Versus camp actually felt like they could be a part of it? |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
http://oaklandoccupypatriarchy.wordpress.com/
May I ask what's up with these guys? I wouldn't know and don't care to use them as ammunition to prove anything. I just want to know if they're legit. |
Quote:
Quote:
How percisely is the NYCGA supposed to bring the Norfolk GA in line so that Solumina gets to speak more often without Jake helping her out? Occupy Norfolk is accountable to the Occupy Norfolk GA. Quote:
Let's say that the NYCGA takes "responsibility" for the actions of 3 occupiers at the Danny Cheng martch and issues an apology. Well guess what? Now the republicans, the democrats and the NYPD have just been handed a MAJOR weapon. All they have to do is just start sending out plainclothes police officers and/or right-wing activists to other left wing marches, and have them identify themselves as occupiers, after all, who is the GA to say that they aren't? Then they tear shit up, act like Jackasses, and suddenly the NYCGA is responsible for their actions. Every single time they do this the NYCGA will have to apologize, for actions that it has nothing to do with, but folks like you and Saya will just see a string of apologies and say to yourselves "Wow, Occupy is REALLY racist. I'll never get involved in that movement" and the whole thing will NEVER have the chance to grow. Occupy COULD decide to start keeping a very strict record of it's members, and declaring official "occupations" and forcing new occupations to apply for a charter with the NYCGA...but once again, in doing so, we've just abandoned the core of what Occupy is about. The whole point is to get autonomous groups of folks to get up off the couch and become active in their own communities. The whole point is to get as many people as possible to be the change that they want to see. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
He had this to say: "Yes, there are big problems with folks not understanding privilege, it's probably the biggest internal problem in the movement, but Occupy is still one of the biggest, best forces for change I have ever seen in my entire life. The reason is, that when you say: "Hey, you guys have a serious problem because you don't understand this" They say "Then come and teach us." They say that every single time, and they make good on it." Quote:
2) Why do you understand that this is absent from the movement? You haven't been to the GAs, you only have Saya's and Solumina's word to go on. Neither have been particularly involved in the movement. Granted this is because they apparently got disrespected by a few people when they did come out (Which sucks) but neither is really educated enough about the movement to say that for instance, Occupy Denver doesn't follow process. Quote:
It's unreasonable to demand that everyone completely change overnight, and it's unreasonable to refuse to work with someone who's well-meaning but still clueless. Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
THAT is divisive. Getting involved and working for change within your part of the movement and your own community as a whole is what OWS is all about. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Now Please stop being so condescending. It's unbecoming and rude. |
Tokens of what? It says in the opening statement that one of the reasons they exist is because they need a space within the community to feel safe. Which implies that there wasn't one previously. Including Occupy Oakland.
But I could be misinterpreting or seeing what I want to see.. Stern says that I do that. |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Also: Stop applying this critique to "Occupy" Occupy Norfolk is clearly different from Occupy Wall Street. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Stop it. It's frustrating. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Please tell me plainly what you need to see, in order to believe that Occupy is worthy. What is your burden of proof here? Saya wouldn't answert me, and Versus admitted that there was nothing I could do or say to prove otherwise, so what exactly am I supposed to do? Quote:
You and Saya have dismissed everything I have brought. You haven't even considered the fact that you might be wrong, nor has either of you admitted that you have limited direct knowledge as to what goes on at Occupy. Just because I'm not throwing the biggest movement for social justice in forty years under a bus does not mean that I am dismissing your concerns. |
Quote:
It's like this: 1) Capitalism is Deadman 2) I argue against deadman, but I am also a white man and argue in a way that a white man would argue 3) Saya comes in and makes arguments against Deadman that a woman would make, and also points out that the way I'm arguing against Deadman sometimes makes her feel marginalized, and maybe I shouldn't call Deadman a "pussy". 4) You come in and see that part of Saya's post and decide I'm a son of a bitch because Saya made a legitimate complaint, and you abstain from telling Deadman what a fat pile of fail he is because you don't want to be associated with Despanan. Got it? |
I'll get back to this, I'm allowing myself to get frustrated and that doesn't lead to helpful discussions. I will keep reading what everyone has to say but I'm going to take a step back until at least tonight, though most likely it will wait until tomorrow. I just wanted you to know that I'm not leaving the conversation, I think it is an important one to have but that at this point impassioned words may lead to harm and further division, which is not something that I want.
|
Quote:
I will agree that I have been impassioned as well. I had to back off from a post actually. For now I'll just say I'm hearing your complaints, and I think they are valid. |
Thanks, I appreciate it.
|
Quote:
Do you really think chanting "I am Trayvon Martin" proves that you're so fucking inclusive it hurts? It erases your privilege, and the whole fucking point is that you're NOT Trayvon Martin. You have no fucking clue what its like to be at the bottom of the hierarchy in society, and you never will because of your skin colour and your sense of entitlement to your privilege. You're the kind of cat who was looking away when people were being rraped and murdered all your life, and in the last few months you've suddenly wiped away all the privilege from your eyes and everything is clear now? You're not even willing to shut the fuck up and listen, you have to excuse everything away, the system will not allow racism or sexism or any kind of oppression, just like everyone else says the US can't be a racist state because the laws don't allow it and we have women and black politicians who won't allow it. They strut those politicians out as proof that they're not racist, just as you strut the few minorities willing to tolerate OWS out as proof that the movement can't be racist. Its the same shit in a different pile. Quote:
|
Saya, I am getting the distinct impression that the way you're feeling right now goes well beyond simply myself and Occupy.
|
Because its a manifestation of a problem much bigger than you or me. There's nothing inherently revolutionary or radical in Occupy. The one here has established itself as reformist, capitalism isn't inherently evil and they incorporated to show that corporates don't have to be evil and they'll set a good example. OWS is overwhelmingly male and white in a city where white men are a minority, and chants how they are Trayvon Martin as if they know what its like to be the victim of racism, and if you're not with them, you're with the counter-revolution. Activists who have been around for ages doing the same god damn work and more suddenly don't matter and are part of the problem if they don't want to be with Occupy. Meanwhile you march and sit in and hope that socialism will be given if you just reform enough laws and have enough politicians speak to the group. You listen to a woman or a person of colour now and then to pat yourself on the back for being inclusive, but attack anyone who says you aren't inclusive enough. You're so in love with yourselves you couldn't give two shits.
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
1) I am Trayvonn Martin was the MILLION HOODIES CHANT. It was not OWS's Chant. OWS was chanting it in solidarity with the rest of the crowd. What are we supposed to chant? Elon James White objected to "We are the 99%", now you're objecting to "I am Trayvonn Martin" maybe all the white men involved with Occupy should just shut the fuck up and go home? Because seriously, that seems to be what you're saying here. Quote:
I want you to consider that you're acting very possessively towards activism. You don't own social justice, you don't own activism and Occupy can't take either away from you. I want you to consider that regardless of whether or not it's fair, Occupy has caused the issues YOU'VE been fighting for your whole life to gain some new traction, and some international attention. The next few years are going to be crucial and which groups of activists who get involved with occupy could very well mean the difference between it being a reform movement and a movement for radical change. Occupy Wall Street isn't asking for socialism to be granted. We aren't supporting Obama. We're engaging in direct action against targets like Bank of America in an attempt to make them go insolvent. Occupy Seattle caused the city to declare a state of Emergency Oakland is nearly a warzone http://www.nicholasmirzoeff.com/O201...nd-1-27-12.jpg the protestors attacked banks and businesses and The OPD deployed a goddamn tank they bought from Blackwater against them. Occupy San Francisco took over private property in order to turn it into a community center Occupy Wall Street brought out 30,000 activists we were lead down the street by fucking taxi drivers: http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...88935859_n.jpg But no, this isn't a real movement, we just want reform. That's why my friends are getting their heads split by NYPD batons. That's why female members of occupy are being sexually assulted by the NYPD that's why we're putting up with rain, snow, freezing conditions, and police brutality because we're just sitting in a park and asking for socialism. <--Check out around 1:13 btw, You can actually see the NYPD reach down and pull up a female protester's skirt while they arrest them. I would like you to consider, Saya, that perhaps Newfoundland is privileged enough, that it can incorporate and ask for reform and a little more socialism than Canada already has. Things are very different here in the states. I would like you to consider that perhaps I was NOT saying that occupy couldn't be criticized, but that YOUR criticisms were not entirely correct. That you lacked information about Occupy, and that this information should be taken into account whenever one talks about the movement as a whole. I would like you to look through this album of mayday actions around the world, and tell me precisely WHY all of these people are wrong and/or, just want reforms: http://imgur.com/a/kr1Ug#0 |
Quote:
|
Nope. Nothin' but reform and Ron Paul:
http://mikeely.files.wordpress.com/2...pg?w=508&h=338 No serious committed activism here. Move along. |
Quote:
|
|
Quote:
You are twisting what I've said to fit your narrative. Quote:
Aso for the rest, seriously, you think I'm just mad that there's another movement? Jesus Christ on a stick, are you that fucked in the head? Me and Solumina REALLY wanted to be part of the movement, but the movement isn't for chicks. I have a friend that was all for it in the beginning, and she made a few friends, but mostly all she got from it was a stalker who's still there. I have an AMERICAN, btw, not a privileged Canadian (seriously? We're all dying of poverty and racism here and you're saying we're more privileged than you, who's parents could pay for him to move to NYC to be a writer?) professor who's specialization is labour movements, who was also all for OWS, but is extremely critical of how the movement as a whole has been white male oriented. Its not something some hysterical women dreamed up so you had to make **** free zones to make them happy, its not something black people who don't like you much is making up to discredit you, you're insanely privileged and you never want to listen unless people are stroking your ego. You're willing to take a bruising for cops now, but you never cared when it was black people. You don't care that women are being sexually assaulted by both activists and cops, you'll only believe it when its the other side who does it. You dismiss me and Solumina as just being too quiet, you treat sexual assault as something unreal and made up. You are the definition of privileged. |
|
All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:56 AM. |