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burningplain 01-28-2012 06:39 AM

Theology (Does god exist? Why/Why Not? etc.)
 
Okay so I realised recently that I had hijacked a thread on the subject of philosophy (the study of ethics & morality) to discuss theology (the nature of God/if there is a god or not). Alan, feel free to call me an arse for doing so. Also please restart the philosophy thread. I'm interested in learning what you think on various topics.

Now to the purpose of this thread. I have recently found myself leaning towards the a "neopagan" theology and am currently joining the pagan society at my university in the hopes of finding a branch of neopaganism that suits me.
For those you wondering why I make a distinction between paganism and neopaganism, the answer is simple. The Latin meaning of the word Pagan is something equivalent to Yokel and was used to talk about anyone or any culture that was not Roman. Neopaganism is actually a massive movement towards a group of religions of Gaulic, Germanic & Celtic origin.

But I am interested by the beliefs of others. What do you believe about God? Do you believe in the existance of a god? If not why not?
If you do Believe in God? What do you believe about is the Nature of God?

This is a thread for the discussion of theology, of the concept of the divine and of the afterlife.

I'm not interested in why you think Religion is stupid, if you want to talk about that go talk about it on one of Pothead's many irritating threads where he basically attempts to shove his version of the divine down everyone else's throat.

I'm interested in what people believe and why they believe it.

x-deviant-x 01-29-2012 05:31 PM

I believe in God, just not the biblical God. My beliefs can't be defined by any one religious pretext, that I know of.

Even back when I proclaimed to be an atheist, some part of me deep down still knew there was a God. I think a lot of atheists only pretend to be atheists as a sort of rebellion against religious doctrine, and in at least some cases, their human ego refuses to allow their existence to be controlled or defined by the concept of God.

I think the concept of God itself is different and personal for every individual. For me, God is nature, and everything that exists in nature. It is the universe that all things exist in, and without it, nothing exists. That's the simplest way I know to describe it.

Despanan 01-29-2012 06:42 PM

Quote:

I believe in God, just not the biblical God. My beliefs can't be defined by any one religious pretext, that I know of.

Even back when I proclaimed to be an atheist, some part of me deep down still knew there was a God. I think a lot of atheists only pretend to be atheists as a sort of rebellion against religious doctrine, and in at least some cases, their human ego refuses to allow their existence to be controlled or defined by the concept of God.

I think the concept of God itself is different and personal for every individual. For me, God is nature, and everything that exists in nature. It is the universe that all things exist in, and without it, nothing exists. That's the simplest way I know to describe it.
So why should I believe in your God?

AshleyO 01-29-2012 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burningplain (Post 689292)
Okay so I realised recently that I had hijacked a thread on the subject of philosophy (the study of ethics & morality) to discuss theology (the nature of God/if there is a god or not). Alan, feel free to call me an arse for doing so. Also please restart the philosophy thread. I'm interested in learning what you think on various topics.

Now to the purpose of this thread. I have recently found myself leaning towards the a "neopagan" theology and am currently joining the pagan society at my university in the hopes of finding a branch of neopaganism that suits me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empiricism

Quote:

For those you wondering why I make a distinction between paganism and neopaganism, the answer is simple. The Latin meaning of the word Pagan is something equivalent to Yokel and was used to talk about anyone or any culture that was not Roman. Neopaganism is actually a massive movement towards a group of religions of Gaulic, Germanic & Celtic origin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monist

Quote:

But I am interested by the beliefs of others. What do you believe about God? Do you believe in the existance of a god? If not why not?
If you do Believe in God? What do you believe about is the Nature of God?

This is a thread for the discussion of theology, of the concept of the divine and of the afterlife.

I'm not interested in why you think Religion is stupid, if you want to talk about that go talk about it on one of Pothead's many irritating threads where he basically attempts to shove his version of the divine down everyone else's throat.

I'm interested in what people believe and why they believe it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materia...irio-criticism

Check up on these kinds of thinking and tell us again as to WHY it's important for you to be neopagan.

I'm bothered as to why you're afraid of talking about why religion is stupid. You're making already a stupid move insofar that you're already assuming that there's a supernatural with no empirical evidence. You're already saying, "We can KNOW there is an immaterial and not only that, but my new spiritual beliefs can actually EXPLAIN the immaterial or supernatural."

I know exactly why you decided to get into neopaganism. It's not because you're spiritually sincere, it's because you want community in some measure.

I'm an atheist. I'd weigh in more severely, but it'd be pointless. Have fun pretending. I know I did.

AshleyO 01-29-2012 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x (Post 689329)
I believe in God, just not the biblical God. My beliefs can't be defined by any one religious pretext, that I know of.

All anecdote? Cool beliefs bro. Must be wicked useful.

Quote:

Even back when I proclaimed to be an atheist, some part of me deep down still knew there was a God. I think a lot of atheists only pretend to be atheists as a sort of rebellion against religious doctrine, and in at least some cases, their human ego refuses to allow their existence to be controlled or defined by the concept of God.
You were never an atheist if you knew deep down there was a god. Stop lying. People hate lying.

Quote:

I think the concept of God itself is different and personal for every individual. For me, God is nature, and everything that exists in nature. It is the universe that all things exist in, and without it, nothing exists. That's the simplest way I know to describe it.
Sounds like Spinoza's god. I guess you COULD say that existence is in itself, god, but the word "existence" defines the phenomena of the real sufficiently without having to wax poetic with lofty nouns such as "god".

x-deviant-x 01-29-2012 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Despanan (Post 689331)
So why should I believe in your God?

It's not my responsibility to convince you whether you should or shouldn't believe in mine or anyone's God. That's all on you.

If instead, you mean to ask why you should believe in God the way I believe in God, then I can only give you examples.

If you believe in nature, you believe in my God. If you believe that anything you do has a direct or indirect impact on the world around you, then you believe in my God.

AshleyO 01-29-2012 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x (Post 689334)
It's not my responsibility to convince you whether you should or shouldn't believe in mine or anyone's God. That's all on you.

If instead, you mean to ask why you should believe in God the way I believe in God, then I can only give you examples.

If you believe in nature, you believe in my God. If you believe that anything you do has a direct or indirect impact on the world around you, then you believe in my God.


I have a weird feeling that Despanan is going to make you get specific. ...I'm sorry.

Despanan 01-29-2012 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x (Post 689334)
It's not my responsibility to convince you whether you should or shouldn't believe in mine or anyone's God. That's all on you.

Why is it not your responsibility?

Quote:

If you believe in nature, you believe in my God. If you believe that anything you do has a direct or indirect impact on the world around you, then you believe in my God.
Then why is it important that I acknowledge nature as "God"?

AshleyO 01-29-2012 07:24 PM

@ BurningPlan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialist

That would be a bit more specific than my other link.

x-deviant-x 01-29-2012 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Despanan (Post 689336)
Why is it not your responsibility?

Because it's not my responsibility how you choose to live your life, or what you choose to believe or not believe. For me to do so would be to try dictating how you should live your life. No one can decide that but you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Despanan (Post 689336)
Then why is it important that I acknowledge nature as "God"?

It's not important whether you acknowledge it or not. I acknowledge it for myself. Whether you do or not has no bearing on the issue. Your lack of acknowledgement or refusal of, does not change my beliefs. You're free to believe whatever you like.

I think you're trying to wrap the concept of God into the context of something tangible, like - for example - the big man in the sky that watches over everyone and sees all things. That's not what God is. At least, that's not what my perception of God is. For a christian, perhaps, but not for me.

Despanan 01-29-2012 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x (Post 689341)
Because it's not my responsibility how you choose to live your life, or what you choose to believe or not believe. For me to do so would be to try dictating how you should live your life. No one can decide that but you.

It's not important whether you acknowledge it or not. I acknowledge it for myself. Whether you do or not has no bearing on the issue. Your lack of acknowledgement or refusal of, does not change my beliefs. You're free to believe whatever you like.

I think you're trying to wrap the concept of God into the context of something tangible, like - for example - the big man in the sky that watches over everyone and sees all things. That's not what God is. At least, that's not what my perception of God is. For a christian, perhaps, but not for me.

Okay, so hypothetically, if you were to wake up and reject the notion of this God that you have, what are the consequences for your rejection? What are the consequences for my rejection of this God?

x-deviant-x 01-29-2012 07:57 PM

Ashley, I'm not lying when I said I proclaimed to be an atheist, so I'm not sure what your argument is.

Any system of beliefs is a religion. Atheism is your religion. Science is a religion. Whatever it is you believe to be true is your religion. So to argue that "religion is stupid" is to argue that belief in anything at all is stupid.

AshleyO 01-29-2012 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x (Post 689343)
Ashley, I'm not lying when I said I proclaimed to be an atheist, so I'm not sure what your argument is.

You proclaimed to be an atheist. But you were lying in the time that you said you were an atheist. The charges you level against atheism rings more true about your character and possibly your anger against other religions than any real understanding of what an atheist is.

Quote:

Any system of beliefs is a religion. Atheism is your religion. Science is a religion. Whatever it is you believe to be true is your religion. So to argue that "religion is stupid" is to argue that belief in anything at all is stupid.
...You seriously don't know what atheism is. Atheism ISN'T a belief. It's a lack of belief in gods. Religion requires a creed, a code, and at least a ritual. None of this applies to atheism. Atheism has no creed and no code. It simply IS just a lack of belief in gods. Some atheists can go so far as to reject the idea of the supernatural outright such as myself. Atheism is at best a conclusion one draws about gods or even the supernatural after examining the empirical evidence. It doesn't take faith to lack a faith in gods.

You're an atheist in regards to perhaps Odin, Vishnu, Astarte, Diana, ect. Your non-belief on those gods extends all the way to a terminal state of non-belief in all things pertaining to gods or positive claims of supernatural events. This isn't a faith.

If you insist that it's a faith, please show me where my creed is. Please point me to my scriptures, and please point me to my churches.

x-deviant-x 01-29-2012 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Despanan (Post 689342)
Okay, so hypothetically, if you were to wake up and reject the notion of this God that you have, what are the consequences for your rejection? What are the consequences for my rejection of this God?

I can't answer that because I don't know. I've never actually experienced the consequences, if there are any, or communicated with anyone that had in order to draw any solid conclusion from it.

But fearing the consequences of not believing in something is not a valid reason to believe in it. At least I wouldn't think so.

Despanan 01-29-2012 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x (Post 689346)
I can't answer that because I don't know. I've never actually experienced the consequences, if there are any, or communicated with anyone that had in order to draw any solid conclusion from it.

So, would it be Correct to say that as far as you know, there are no consequences for not believing in your God, and no rewards for believing in your God?

AshleyO 01-29-2012 08:11 PM

A more specific breakdown as to why atheism is NOT a religion.

Is atheism a religion?

"Atheism is just another religion." or "It takes faith to be an atheist."

There are several errors in such an assumption. Primary among them is that atheism is descriptive of a singular characteristic: a lack of belief in a god or gods. Quite literally anything else is negotiable. It's possible for an atheist to believe that ghosts exist, for example, so long as those ghosts aren't gods. Theism, the counterpart to atheism, is also not a religion. Religion requires doctrine, rituals, and other bells and whistles.

That, however, may not be enough to convince someone inclined toward the belief that atheism is some sort of religion. Luckily, there are many other common characteristics of religions:

Sacred objects, sacred places, sacred times or days

There is no concept of "sacred" inherent to atheism.

Rituals focused on the above

Being atheist just is. There is nothing that needs to be done to become an atheist or remain one save not believing in gods.

Making statements on existence, either current or origin

These things are often claimed by religions in the form of creation myths. Atheism has no such thing.

Providing a philosophy

"Lack of belief in a god or gods" doesn't speak to how to live. The society one lives in does.

Providing a world view

The religious version is often basically "God did it" and builds from there. Atheism has no such thing.

Providing a moral code

These things are inherent to humanity in general. Most people regardless of belief (or lack thereof) will agree that it's wrong to shoot someone in the face, for instance. Atheism itself makes no statements on morals or behavior.

x-deviant-x 01-29-2012 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AshleyO (Post 689345)
You proclaimed to be an atheist. But you were lying in the time that you said you were an atheist.

Lying to myself, perhaps. I can see how that can be considered lying.


Quote:

Originally Posted by AshleyO (Post 689345)
...You seriously don't know what atheism is. Atheism ISN'T a belief... Atheism is at best a conclusion one draws about gods...

Quote:

Originally Posted by AshleyO (Post 689345)
If you insist that it's a faith, please show me where my creed is. Please point me to my scriptures, and please point me to my churches.

A conclusion is a belief.

Let's define belief.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/belief

be·lief   [bih-leef]
noun
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.

3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.

4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

Now, let's define religion.

re·li·gion   [ri-lij-uhn]
noun

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

And, just for shits and giggles, let's define atheism.

a·the·ism   [ey-thee-iz-uhm]
noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.

2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Any questions?

x-deviant-x 01-29-2012 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Despanan (Post 689347)
So, would it be Correct to say that as far as you know, there are no consequences for not believing in your God, and no rewards for believing in your God?

Its not a system of merit, or Win or Lose. Again, you're trying to wrap it into something tangible.

Whether it is correct or incorrect for you to draw that conclusion, only you can answer that for yourself.

Despanan 01-29-2012 08:37 PM

Well, I'll say right off the bat that your defenition of atheism is insufficient, it only covers positive claims about the non-existence of God(s).

But I will let Ashley respond to that one. I'm more interested in your response to my above statement.

So:

I'm going to assume that since this God of yours won't punish or reward me according to my belief or lack of belief, and since your defenition of this God is "everything" that you have no knowledge of its nature beyond the material world.

I have one final question: what is your empirical scientific evidence for the e istence of this God?

AshleyO 01-29-2012 08:45 PM

conclusion
[kuhn-kloo-zhuhn]   Origin
con·clu·sion
   [kuhn-kloo-zhuhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
the end or close; final part.
2.
the last main division of a discourse, usually containing a summing up of the points and a statement of opinion or decisions reached.
3.
a result, issue, or outcome; settlement or arrangement: The restitution payment was one of the conclusions of the negotiations.
4.
final decision: The judge has reached his conclusion.
5.
a reasoned deduction or inference.

Conclusions are not beliefs, Deviant. An atheist lacks a belief in gods. What you're trying to say is that an amputee has some form of an arm when he or she has no arm.

And the first definition is patently incorrect. There are no doctrines of atheism. There are books about atheism, but not HOW to be an atheist, but more about why there are certainly no gods in anyway that humanity has ever conceived of gods. To put it further to the point that atheism has no doctrine, many atheists have come to the conclusion of atheism or returned to the natural intellectual default position through many different ways. Some apostates of religion and belief in gods have done so through surviving abuse, learning about evolution, experiencing atrocities in the real world, or even raised in a non-religious household. There is no "how-to" guide to being an atheist. Atheists have no doctrines because a doctrine would spell out a path to atheism and there is no path. There is no "way of the atheist".

Deviant. Religion has to be LEARNED. You're not born with beliefs in gods and a lack of belief is not the same as actively disbelieving. What one can conclude about the state of atheism from an empirical standpoint is that it is a default position which can be altered by our naturally dualistic minds.

Alan 01-29-2012 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x (Post 689329)
I think a lot of atheists only pretend to be atheists as a sort of rebellion against religious doctrine, and in at least some cases, their human ego refuses to allow their existence to be controlled or defined by the concept of God.

How ironic that you'd think atheists just have a big ego, while saying that it just so happens that the REAL god is your nondescript god that you managed to find out but no one in the whole history of humankind has found yet.

AshleyO 01-29-2012 09:16 PM

Lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

x-deviant-x 01-29-2012 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Despanan (Post 689351)
I'm going to assume that since this God of yours won't punish or reward me according to my belief or lack of belief, and since your defenition of this God is "everything" that you have no knowledge of its nature beyond the material world.

The concept of "punishment" is a human construct. If you're going to believe that you're going to be punished for believing one way or another then you have issues that someone or something else is going to have to help you with.

It seems like you're trying to force me into saying this is right and this is wrong based on my own personal beliefs and that's not something I'm going to do because it's just not for me to decide. "Judge not lest ye be judged". It doesn't matter to me whether you believe how I believe or not. It makes no difference to me. You have to find your own path. If that's atheism for you, so be it. It doesn't affect me or anyone else, nor should it. The only point where it affects me, or anyone else, is when you start trying to force your opinions and beliefs on other people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Despanan (Post 689351)
I have one final question: what is your empirical scientific evidence for the e istence of this God?

I don't need scientific evidence. It's simply what I believe. My evidence comes from life experience and conclusions that I've drawn from my own existence. If I were trying to prove to you beyond doubt that this is how things are, that this is what God is, then - and only then - would I need scientific evidence to back it up. But that's not what I'm trying to do and it's not what the OP's objective was.

As I said in my original post, I think the concept of God is different and personal for every individual.

That includes your lack of belief in a God.

Where is your empirical scientific evidence that God does not exist? Where is your empirical scientific evidence that life just happened by chance? There was a time not too long ago that nobody knew what gravity was. Does that mean it didn't exist? There was a time even more recent that nobody knew what DNA was. Does that mean it didn't exist?

When science can prove beyond doubt where, how and why life came into existence, then my beliefs may change. Until then, each person is entitled to draw their own conclusions in their own way.

Alan 01-29-2012 09:32 PM

KNOW, or BELIEVE? Make up your fucking mind.

Despanan 01-29-2012 09:38 PM

Wonderful, now that I have some idea as to exactly what your God IS, I'm going to point out what I've been getting at:

The God of x-deviant-x is positively the most useless god ever imagined. Quite literally and by his own admission, there is absolutely no reason to believe in his God at all. There are no consequences for disbelief. There are no rewards for belief. Whether or not this God exists has absolutely no material, or immaterial effect on the world whatsoever.

It is, by definition toothless and utterly hopelessly impotent...so, lacking any real proof, again I ask, why believe in it at all?

Hell, it's almost sexed-up atheism, except deviant DID make one mistake, because as obtuse as he has been, it is possible to prove conclusively that even a God as vague as his "nature" God does not exist.

Observe:

Quote:

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x
If you believe in nature, you believe in my God. If you believe that anything you do has a direct or indirect impact on the world around you, then you believe in my God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x
I think you're trying to wrap the concept of God into the context of something tangible, like - for example - the big man in the sky that watches over everyone and sees all things. That's not what God is.

Judging by these statements, the God of x-deviant-x is both tangible and intangible and therefore self-refuting. Ergo, because of this inherent impossiblity in it's nature x-deviant-x's god is demonstrably not real.

Observe x-deviant-x: your god lays slain at my feet. Behold my majesty and tremble.

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/skuld6.jpg


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