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-   -   The DC Reboot Shit Show (http://www.gothic.net/boards/showthread.php?t=25152)

Saya 07-27-2011 08:52 PM

The DC Reboot Shit Show
 
So its been known for a while that in September, DC is rebooting all of its series. So if you think that its too late to get into Batman because you'd have no clue whats going on, you have a chance to get the new Batman #1, a new clean slate, and you know everything you need to know. Right?

I'm not opposed to it, I mean if we didn't reboot after the golden, silver and bronze ages we'd miss out on a lot of good comics and re imaginings. A lot of things have been improved upon. But as more and more information comes out, some things seem like bizarre changes. Like, no Lois and Clark. None! They aren't married now!

And the costumes...

http://www.comicbookbin.com/artman2/.../action1_4.jpg

http://www.harley-quinn.com/news/hqrelaunch.jpg

Yeah, thats Harley Quinn.

Wonder Woman's pants/no pants status keeps changing, but it seems to be that she'll be going back and forth, and hopefully Superman is also going back and forth between I'm-so-working-class-my-jeans-have-patches costume and the more classic suit:

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lm...zyxso1_500.jpg

But it also seems a lot of superheroes are getting the boot, particularly female characters. And The Killing Joke remains canon, but Barbara Gordon is going to get "better" (because paralysis is just like a cold! You get over it eventually), cease to be Oracle and become Batgirl again. Oh, and she's much younger too. Because over 25 is the new 50 apparently.

Also looks like the first few issues of Catwoman at least is just going to be her having sex with Batman and being "dirty". And apparently, they axed most of their women writers. DC's writers prior to this reboot would have been 12% female, but its being reduced to only 1.9% of their writers being women.

Quote:

With the new line, DC have dropped from having 12.5% of their creators being women, to only 1.9%. This isn't about artificial quotas or petulant foot stomping, this is about a drastic cut in the number of women behind DC characters and a worry of what this might mean for the future of DC comics.

But are there women out there who want to write for DC? Most assuredly there are, but perhaps not in the numbers we would hope for. And why would there be? A great number of terrific women writers have absolutely no interest in writing superhero stories because of the incredible male focus they demand. Why have your words rendered into exposed flesh and heaving breasts, all most likely for a character that will spin on the spot for a male character's plot point? For DC, and superhero comics as a whole, to achieve a greater diversity behind the scenes, it first needs to show that diversity on the pages themselves.
http://www.comicbookgrrrl.com/2011/0...-of-san-diego/

And with Didio apparently being a total dick at Comic Con when asked about this and acted like the reason they have so few female writers is because there aren't any, and asked women to send their stuff in (which DC does not allow, does he not know this?) I'm conflicted whether to keep reading DC. On one hand, I'm pretty excited about Batwoman and Voodoo, who are gay and bisexual respectively and that's pretty cool. But the attitude seems to be is that yes, they'll inject some diversity if they don't think it'll interfere with them trying to turn on their target audience of heterosexual men ages 18-34. And they seem to have weird ideas about what youth today like.

Grausamkeit 07-27-2011 11:44 PM

This bodes ill.....

If they want to do something groundbreaking and exciting why not make Superman and Batman gay and bisexual, respectively?

Saya 07-28-2011 12:24 AM

At Comic Con they said they didn't want to change the personalities of any superheroes drastically, they're rebooting and changing the costumes but not really who they are.

Although I think if they made Wonder Woman gay it wouldn't be a huge stretch. She hasn't gotten very serious with any man before, I think her fling with Nemesis was the closest we got (I hope they bring him back, though, I enjoyed that pairing). She's been pretty virginal.

Batwoman is pretty neat though, originally she was created in the fifties when there was a lot of criticism towards Batman and Robin's relationship as being homosexual, so Batwoman was created to be Batman's "I'M NOT GAY" girlfriend (been there! I relate to her already). So by reintroducing her in this continuity as a lesbian is pretty redeeming (they're technically not changing her personality though because its an entirely different woman, Kate Kane). I'm drooling over the artwork as well, I really want her comic to be good and successful.

There are other gay superheroes, but none as prominent and I think she's the only one to have her own comic series, Voodoo will be the second queer superhero with her own comic (Batwoman #0 came out last year, its pretty short and just kinda sums up the character so if you skip it you're not missing much). I gotta admit I am more nervous about Voodoo, biphobia is rampant even among LGBTQ people, I'm kinda worried her bisexuality will be used to pander to a male audience and just have her sleep with everything that comes her way until she gets a good dicking, you know? I tend to be paranoid about that kind of thing though.

Saya 07-28-2011 12:39 AM

Actually, some wikipedia-ing lead me to realize that Starman was probably DC's first openly gay superhero with his own series. He doesn't seem to be part of the reboot though.

Hydrodyssodia 07-28-2011 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saya (Post 673955)

Although I think if they made Wonder Woman gay it wouldn't be a huge stretch. She hasn't gotten very serious with any man before, I think her fling with Nemesis was the closest we got (I hope they bring him back, though, I enjoyed that pairing). She's been pretty virginal.

I actually think Greg Rucka wanted to make her a lesbian, but DC didn't let him.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Saya (Post 673955)
I'm drooling over the artwork as well, I really want her comic to be good and successful.

I'm pretty sure Elegy, her story by the same artist in Detective Comics, sold like crazy, so you probably won't have to worry about that.

BTW, Midnighter is gay and he had his own series way before Kate, probablly some other characters too.
And talking about Midnighter and Apollo
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grausamkeit (Post 673954)
If they want to do something groundbreaking and exciting why not make Superman and Batman gay and bisexual, respectively?

That's basically what they are. Or well, both are gay, and a couple. And now they exist in the DCU!

Anyways, don't do that. Changing a characters sexual orientation looks terrrible and awful when done to gay characters, it's just as bad when done to straights.

Saya 07-28-2011 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hydrodyssodia (Post 673958)
BTW, Midnighter is gay and he had his own series way before Kate, probablly some other characters too.

Hmm, looks like Starman's boyfriend was introduced the same year as Midnighter's series. 1998 was a good year for DC's gay heroes, it seems!

I'm going to blame the blogosphere for saying she was the first. Maybe she's the first lesbian?

AshleyO 07-28-2011 12:51 PM

Quinn looks stupid. I bet she's also wearing heels. You know, cause nothing says function like HEELS when you're planting bombs and running from the cops.

Ben Lahnger 07-29-2011 12:37 AM

There are oh so many problems with this. The twitterverse has been blowing up over it. Like the fact that if Superman was the first superhero, that means there never was any JSA. Powergirl doesn't appear to exist. And other meaningful characters are MIA.

But more importantly, some whole sections of history are FUBARed. For instance, in the Newsarama article titled Canon Fodder: 10 Possible Story Casualties of the DCnU they indicate that the planned changes could un-write the entire Grant Morrison run on JLA. And this section of that article is particularly troubling:
IDENTITY CRISIS

Another story that we've been assured will have happened in the new DC Universe, there are some curiosities about what, exactly, will survive the reboot: Perhaps Sue Dibny's death at the hands of (spoiler) Jean Loring will make it (although try explaining the grisly details to a new reader) but there are all manner of subplots that suddenly seem in question: Was Zatanna a member of the new JLA at any point (we know she's with JLDark now, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she ran with the superheroes at any point), and if not, how did the mindwipes happen? If Firestorm didn't exist prior to The Fury of Firestorm #1, who died (if anyone) as a result of the manhunts?
I love Identity Crisis. The trade paperback is one of my favorite comics of all time. This really messes with the continuity of that story. And there are more timeline troubles because of this reboot.

Also, there was a move by DC to change Wonder Woman's issue numbering a while back. Fans started a petition to get the numbering restored, and so a little over a year ago DiDio agreed to restore the numbering to issue 600 (the number it should have reached at that point) and even made some statements about "having heard the fans." So apparently, even DC's direct response to the fans will be undone when they renumber her to #1.

And, this blogger thinks There Are Actually LESS Female Characters In The DC Relaunch Than There Are Now. (I threw that one in for you, Saya.)

I don't like it. It's a naked marketing ploy, and unnecessary. If any of the logic behind this applied, then I would never have picked up a copy of Action Comics in the first place.

Saya 07-29-2011 12:50 AM

Actually, do you have anymore info on how this is going to kerfuffle up Batman's history? Apparently, he still has a son? So how is it that Superman is young and starting out but Batman is still old enough to have Robin as his son?

Far as I heard Dick isn't going to return as Robin, which is messed, why does Oracle have to go back to Batgirl?

PS http://dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/ is my new favourite blog, and has an awesome interview with the Batgirl lady who was asking questions about women characters and creators. She got booed and Didio was a total dick to her, but Gail Simone and Paul Cornell went out of their way to talk to her afterwards, which is pretty nice.

AshleyO 07-29-2011 10:27 AM

I don't follow the comics you guys are talking about. Hell, I don't follow DC or Marvel for that matter.

So what I want to know is:

Why would there be a need to reboot?

Beowulf 07-29-2011 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AshleyO (Post 674049)
I don't follow the comics you guys are talking about. Hell, I don't follow DC or Marvel for that matter.

So what I want to know is:

Why would there be a need to reboot?


That is a question I often ask myself of so called `re-boots`, personally I feel that reboots are nothing more than a poorly disguised marketing gimmick to fool us into thinking that its a new and exiting (read marketable) to todays audiences.

Is there such a lack of imagination in todays entertainment industries that they cannot create something new, or adapt something that has cult status that has yet to be adapted for TV or Cinema ?

The same goes for all the various re-makes the film industry regurgitates at us now and again !!!.

Ben Lahnger 07-29-2011 09:33 PM

A reboot can be a good thing (example - the recent Star Trek movie, which opened up an entire new universe of storytelling ideas) or a bad thing.

My sense is that since this is basically just a naked marketing ploy, it's bound to be a bad thing.

Saya, I don't know more about how the Batverse will be affected. I was reading some online, but there's so much speculation that it's hard to separate fact from fiction.

Here's another of my complaints. This YouTube clip from May of 2008 features an interview with DCU publisher Dan DiDio, from the New York Comic Con, talking about Power Girl:

Dan DiDio talks Powergirl

"You know, Power Girl is the one character that people have asked the most about, for why we haven't done an ongoing series with her." - Dan DiDio, 2008

Three years later (after an interesting ride for the character and an unusual story arc which is going to come to an unnatural end due to running out of time), not so much now.

Straight up, DiDio pisses me off, and I don't trust him with the DCU any more.

Ben Lahnger 07-29-2011 10:22 PM

Also, Saya, I think you'll get a kick out of this:

DC Comics Listens To Batgirl, Makes Changes

From the San Diego Comic Con - "Thanks to one woman (known as Kyrax2 on Twitter) dressed as the Stephanie Brown Batgirl who went to all of the panels to ask question, then follow up question, then follow up question, creating a narrative across the show, asking about the lack of female creators in the new DCU and the lack of prominent independent female characters, something snapped. By the the last panel, Dan DiDio seemed visibly frustrated – this was not the way the narrative was meant to go."

I admire her tenacity.

Saya 07-30-2011 12:03 AM

Oh, they aren't off the hook, but I can't say I'm not heartened by that. And yeah, I really admire her. I'd be so intimidated if I asked a question like that and got such a bad reaction from Didio AND fans, I probably wouldn't have the courage to get up two more times!

If they really wanted to, they could totally turn this around and realize what a potential market they have with women readers.

And, yeah, the whole reboot thing is mostly about sales from what I can tell, DC's sales have been in the shitter, generally. Superman was hard hit, I think, which is probably why he got a total reboot and Batverse, which sells really well (Batgirl: The Flood sold spectacularly) isn't getting a entire reboot, just getting changed without undoing a whole lot.

AshleyO 07-30-2011 12:10 AM

But they're invoking the same formulas. Look at Quinn there. She's just MORE titillating. This obviously in my mind, doesn't make much sense. There are PLENTY of artists out there just as good as the comic artists who can actually DELIVER a nude or full blown pornographic depiction of any of our comic characters. So I don't see how sexualizing the female characters like that would actually increase sales.

Am I wrong to assume that the reader base has changed? Would it not make sense that because of our generation and because of what we were taught as kids, it's time for Marvel and DC to reflect the values WE grew up with? Are we not generally more feminist?

I seriously can't see how rebooting a franchise and then doing more of the same is something that would work to boost sales.

Saya 07-30-2011 01:00 AM

Haha, well I guess it creates controversy but I don't think they were expecting it.

And you're right, a lot of it is going to be rehashing unless they make serious changes to the plot and continuity. Breaking up Lois and Clark (well, not breaking them up, just going back to before they got together), who are the fooling? We know they're going to end up together. At most, they'll just want Superman to sleep around for a bit before he "settles down". Which is sad.

And its why I'm mostly looking forward to the new heroes and comics, although I'll probably keep reading Wonder Woman, not going to lie. Depends on what they're doing with her, haven't heard if she's completely rebooted or not either.

I don't know why they're so afraid of characters getting old. Well, Wonder Woman and Superman and Barda don't age (or does Superman age very slowly?) so its not really an issue. Let your younger superheroes grow up and have new young ones come in to appeal to the younger crowd! Yeah Bruce Wayne no longer being Batman would be sad, but it worked for Batman Beyond.

ETA: slightly off topic, have you seen the preview of Talia in Arkham City? She's looking awfully...whitewashed.

AshleyO 07-30-2011 02:38 AM

I haven't seen it. I actually enjoyed Arkham Asylum. City should be cool. The graphics kinda screw with me though.

AshleyO 07-30-2011 02:43 AM

Oh... wait... That doesn't make sense. Why is she blonde? Didn't she have like... brown or reddish brown hair?

Beowulf 07-30-2011 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger (Post 674066)
A reboot can be a good thing (example - the recent Star Trek movie, which opened up an entire new universe of storytelling ideas) or a bad thing.

My sense is that since this is basically just a naked marketing ploy, it's bound to be a bad thing.

Saya, I don't know more about how the Batverse will be affected. I was reading some online, but there's so much speculation that it's hard to separate fact from fiction.

Here's another of my complaints. This YouTube clip from May of 2008 features an interview with DCU publisher Dan DiDio, from the New York Comic Con, talking about Power Girl:

Dan DiDio talks Powergirl

"You know, Power Girl is the one character that people have asked the most about, for why we haven't done an ongoing series with her." - Dan DiDio, 2008

Three years later (after an interesting ride for the character and an unusual story arc which is going to come to an unnatural end due to running out of time), not so much now.

Straight up, DiDio pisses me off, and I don't trust him with the DCU any more.


Ben,

The Star Trek film was good, and made a very good prequel, and it had Leonard Nimoy !!!. :)

Ben Lahnger 07-30-2011 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf (Post 674093)
Ben,

The Star Trek film was good, and made a very good prequel, and it had Leonard Nimoy !!!. :)

Beo! How have you been?

I will be the first to admit, that while the Star Trek film was a good re-boot and exceptionally well made, it is an incredible rarity. Most (and I do mean most) re-boots go sadly awry.

* As a side-note: There was recently a plan to do a new Buffy the Vampire Slayer movie, with an entirely different cast and no involvement from Joss Whedon, because other people own the rights to the property. But the fan backlash was so great that the concept was abandoned pretty quickly. *

The DCnU re-boot is not about creativity (although recent story lines like Superman walking across America make one wonder if the well hasn't gone a little dry for the folks at Detective Comics.) It's about marketing. Dan DiDio and his cohorts believe 1) that people are intimidated by comics numbering in the 500's and 600's, as if they won't buy the comic because they are thinking "I'll never be able to figure out what all has happened before if I pick up this comic now" - which is absurd because then no one would have picked up a copy of Action Comics in the last couple of decades if that were the case, and 2) that renumbering every comic with the number 1 will be more inviting to new readers, as if to say "Hey, I can get in at the start of the story!" - which is an absurd thing to proclaim at the same time you're making all these promises about how much of the backstory you're going to save for these characters and what history has already passed at the point where the number 1 issues are introduced.

But I don't actually have a problem with the numbering. Heck, there's speculation that the comics could go to an annualized format where they have issues 1-12 (volume 2011), and start over with a new number 1 each year. It seems unnecessary and a bit of psychological trickery, but I really don't care that much.

And DC has re-invented its universe many times in the past. I've never had a problem when they've done these massive brand-spanning events that corrected and consolidated the DCU history, WHEN THEY MADE SENSE ("Zero Hour" was pretty lame.) But this is just a random-reshuffling of the history, arbitrarily deciding what events did and didn't happen, and most annoyingly ... it seems it will obliterate some really great stories and characters that people love.

It makes no sense.

AshleyO 07-30-2011 01:15 PM

...Shit show. Hahahahaha.

Valhalla 07-30-2011 07:44 PM

Pointing out how much I hate Harley's new design. She has always been one of my favorite comic book characters, and I hate to see her in a terrible new costume.

There's not enough double sided tape in the world to make that shirt stay up right, and I doubt it would allow much flexibility.

By the looks of her costume, sexualization aside, I think they're trying to further her from The Joker (although maybe not, since they just got back together in Sirens). She does have to have some kind of clown element to her costume though or there's no point to her name. The cape has that ruffle thing, but the costume doesn't come off as harlequin like to me.

/rant over.

Solumina 07-30-2011 09:56 PM

She looks like what I would imagine a hooker at an ICP concert would look like.

Saya 07-30-2011 10:15 PM

Oooooh it gets worse. Now, this is a Flashpoint comic so its not canon, but LOOK WHAT THEY DID TO ZATANNA:

http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/files/2...sajdkhfas9.jpg

Solumina 07-30-2011 11:19 PM

Well I thought I had seen the lowest low riders that anybody could think of but I guess I was wrong. At least she has on some panties, otherwise she just wouldn't be the classy lady she clearly is.


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