Fruitbat, this is exactly what you said:

You are wrong, plain and simple. The logic of his statement does not fail in the instances that you brought up. People may ignore it, but that doesn't make it any less true.

If you do not want people to correct you, do not make false statements. Holy shit.

Sigh.... a logical argument fails if one of the parties isn't listening to logic. I was merely asking a question.

Alan Who the fuck knows? I said I was making a passing comment to something CK wrote on this board. I'm not victimising myself - well I don't feel victimized.

Saya When I came back in babybat was hanging off my neck, yelling in my ear to go back to the disney character crying her eyes out, so you're pretty popular in this house (with the three year old)

I don't have the time to get into this discussion. Say what you like, but I'm not feeling victimized or whatever you want call it.

my heads not in this game.

If you believe we're ganging up on you instead of arguing against you, that's called feeling victimized.
This is your problem. you just say shit and expect it to be so just because you said it.

I will say again, I DON'T have anything against abortion. I don't believe for a second it should be mine or anyone elses place to tell someone they can or can't have one. Of course my sisters health worries me but not a damn thing I say to her makes any difference. I've offered to go with her to the family planning clinic to get contraceptives, everything I can think of but she still chooses to go the abortion route. I would never say to her or anyone else that I disapprove of their choice because it isn't my choice to make. I just wish she'd make better choices in the first place instead of putting herself in the position where she has to make that choice repeatedly.

@ OP

I've had discussions and debates regarding abortion often as it is a huge topic, especially if you and/or those you love and hold dear have a uterus.

The people who try to claim person hood for a blastocyst or fetus except in the cases of **** or incest, don't really give a fuck about the baby. Once the conversation really gets going, we find that many don't think women are smart enough or capable of making big decisions, compounded by the idea that babies are the woeful consequence of sex. Hence the reason there are those who wish to make exceptions for **** and incest as the woman didn't choose this sex so she should get a free pass on the consequence.

As far as I'm concerned, we can argue about fetuses and their person hood or lack thereof all day until we turn blue, and it shouldn't really make much of a difference because of one fact. This baby/fetus/blastocyst/embryo/whatever lives inside of another human being who is (usually) an adult capable of making their own decisions about their body/family/health/life. The real issue is whether or not women get to make decisions about their own bodies.

Exactly. To make abortion illegal is to give more rights to a clump of cells (first trimester) or a fetus than the person who has to actually carry that clump/fetus inside them and then push it out.
Women know what is best for them, be it abortion, adoption, or reproduction. Taking away that right just reinforces the patriarchal view that women can't think independently for themselves.

I heard you the first time. Jesus. I acknowledged it. And yes, you did think for a second that it should be someone other then the pregnant woman's choice. I even quoted you on the second page.

Chill out.

I'm not mad bro, I just don't think I'm getting what I mean across because I can't explain it clearly enough for me to be happy with how it comes across.

Can someone explain to me why it's actually wrong to use abortion as a means of contraception?

The only thing I can think of is that this kind of contraception doesn't prevent stds in the least. So it's technically not a safe form of contraception.

However, you can make the same argument for the pill in regards to preventing stds.

Is there anything I'm missing because I don't really see any other reason why one wouldn't use abortion as a means of contraception.

And why does abortion have to be a big emotional deal?

The only other thing I can think of is the invasiveness, the cost and the pain in the ass it can be. For medical abortion, you're given pills that make you go on your period, so there's a lot of cramping and spending all day on the toilet until you pass the clump. For a lot of women it just doesn't feel good, although I've heard the same about things like Plan B.

For surgical abortion, its more invasive and warrants some kind of anesthesia.

It can also do wonky things with your hormones, nothing permanent or anything deeply troubling but not ideal, it would be the same hormonal reaction as a miscarriage so clearly something that many women have been through repeatedly. There are also issues with things like ectopic pregnancies, which can be dangerous even in the early stages so they are really best prevented instead of being taken care of after they crop up, and I have heard that surgical abortions can increase your risk for endometriosis but the research seems to still be out on that (and abortions wouldn't increase your risk any more than IUDs so pretty much if you aren't already at a high risk then you don't need to worry about it), so basically it shouldn't be a problem unless there is something else going on.

AshleyO: at the moment, in the UK, the cost to the NHS would be the major bug-bear with it. (Although, given that the Coalition have started the process of dismantling the NHS in earnest recently, the sad fact is that that'll probably become a non-issue in my lifetime.)

That said though, as far as I'm concerned it goes in the same bracket as abuse of the welfare system: it might piss me off, but I suspect the number of people who'd actively choose it in the face of real (and more logically beneficial) alternatives are small enough that they're not a reason to write off the system that allows them to. There are bigger things at stake, like living in a society that doesn't screw over the many just to punish the few.

No... and no.

LMFAO, you don't see the irony in how you just responded?

....no....

But I do hope you enjoyed the laugh.

Hey Batty, I've missed your pretty face. *flirty face*

You're back! It's like the sun has suddenly appeared in the sky again after an eon of darkness! (or being goth that should be the other way around - but you know what I mean)

I've missed you.

I've been researching Colorado for a book I'm writing (well Denver) and I thought of you... awwww. The more I read the more I realise how awesome Denver would be to visit. I wanna go to Red Rock.

Oh crap, now I'm gushing... again... sigh... I'll slow down soon.. when the caffiene wears off.

IMO best part of Colorado are the mountains. :) If you visit, get out into the mountains, they're beautiful.

Just between you and me, I've got a crush on real mountains. We have 'mountains' over here, but they are more like hills when you look at them in context to mountain ranges in the rest of the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Vt8q6rfhrmQ

Your move, pro-lifers.

"Until abortion ends" videos piss me the fuck off.

"Until this thing that I view as paramount to legalized mass murder stops, I will inconvenience myself by refraining from eating candy, listening to my iPod, or some other such frivolous indulgence. Because I care about legalized mass murder only so far as my own comfort."

Sorry man, clicking "like" on a thing in facebook is about as far as I'm willing to go.

For those who want the fucked up "line" of thought on the whole pro-life except in cases of **** or incest thing, here it goes, at least for Western culture.

In older, traditional religious teaching, the only sanctioned sexual behavior was between a man and woman in marriage for purposes of reproduction. The only "approved" children were those who were born into this situation. If a child were born less than 9 months from the date of marriage, the family was looked down upon. If the woman was unmarried, she could be not only shunned but punished, with punishments ranging from that described in The Scarlet Letter to stoning (depends what century we are talking about), for this was obviously proof of "adultery", this being defined as any sexual behavior outside of that described above.

ANY CHILD born outside of the above description was considered a bastard. Bastards would not have any inheritance rights, no land, no training in a trade, and if female, no dowry or marriage prospects, and a child of either sex would not be allowed into Heaven. This was because it was believed that any life born outside of the above rules was already damned, isolated from God, almost untouchable, because it had been conceived and born outside of the rules, it had been born into adultery, and thus born into more sin than we already were under the concept of original sin. In that system of belief, that life was genuinely regarded as being worth less because it was "dirty", considered unclean, vile.


A child born as a result of **** or incest was conceived outside of the aforementioned rules ( not resulting from the union of a married man and woman), and was classified as a bastard. The only biblical exception to this was in a case where a woman was ****ed in a rural, wild area, where if she had screamed, no one in a position to help would be able to hear her, so she had a plausible reason why the **** had taken place, instead of being stopped. The child would still be a bastard, the woman would still be somewhat shunned and held as being worth less for marriage, possibly unmarriageable, but she wouldn’t be killed. If she was in a populated area, she was screwed, because of course if it was **** she would have screamed, and someone would have heard her. (No pun intended)


Strict biblical teaching does state that those children produced from **** or incest are worth less than those from a traditional household.


Horrid isn’t it?

That doesn't account for why so many religious people are pro-choice, or why so many people who aren't strictly religious are pro-life.

The more likely reason people are pro-life is that they are ignorant.

Just wanted to add, that not all abortions are elective, some times horrible things are congenitally wrong with the new person and they die or will die before they ever have a chance to be born.

I'm pretty sure I've posted this link before, but its always relevant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEFWDYB0rWo