Gypsy and Nomad Rights
 

It has come to my attention that a way of life or lifestyle is being infringed upon by people wanting to preserve their property. I am not suggesting opening any property to "swatters;" however, there is a lot of open land people could travel through and camp on with livestock and other amenities.

All throughout Europe and Asian Gypsies and Nomads are allowed to set up accommodations along the side of the road and in areas no one inhibits. However, in the United States people have to own land to ranchers.

I purpose basic amenities of campfires be returned to National Forests. We should also allow people to go to and from areas that are not reserved for a given purpose or owned by anyone. Anyone with land may decide whether or not they allow swatters.

There is a lot of undeveloped land, in which, no one inhabits. A few travelers will not inhibit the land or ecosystem; however, they would have to apply for permits to own land.

Laws have become to stringent in an extremely conservative maneuver; wherein, citing anything that happened historically is somehow preserving current entities, we should go back several decades if not centuries to a gentler time to a kinder era exalting compassion for everyone.

First, it is spelled 'squatters', not swatters.

Second, I dunno where you are getting your information from but Europe is stamping out gypsys because they are a plague, much like locusts.

If you have never lived in Europe, then you have never experienced it.

Yes, the move into any area that is uninhabited, but they will be moved by the land owner or local government. They are a big problem in Ireland and the UK. They move on to the sides of motorways (highways) and just live there, throwing out waste and pissing on the sides of the road - dozens of familys of them with clothes lines running from their vans to their trailers.

Here is a link to some articles on them. Read it, since you want to become a one.

http://kildare.ie/knn/travsproblem.htm

Also, where are you getting the idea that people are automatically kicked off of land in the U.S? Of course, if you set up in a farmer or ranchers' field without asking (private property), you might see the business end of a shotgun, there are many MANY places one can set up camp without being bothered by a soul. Hell, a 14 day permit for BLM is cheap, if you want to be strictly legal about it, and in some places there are "Long Term Visitor Areas", like outside Quartzite, AZ
where for a modest fee you can stay, dry-camped, for literally months on end.

I travelled with my family for many years as a full-time RVer, what you might call a modern day American nomad, and it has been my experience that you can find a place to stay pretty much anywhere, as long as you are polite and friendly, and clean up after yourself.

I have dry camped in 49 of the fifty US states, and the only reason I've never camped in the last one is that I've never been there.

Oh the horror! They must be exterminated like a pest.

Surprised that Sternn takes such a reactionary mainstream media view of gypsies and travellers when he always tries to pride himself as the rogue commie iconoclast. Travellers get a bad rep, for the most part there is nothing wrong with them and I've always thought there's something liberating about driving your caravan into a field where old white people like to go taking leisurely strolls and just setting up life there on the fly. Maybe they are a problem for Sternn but in my perception of the UK I couldn't care less.

@JCC

If that were the truth I would happily support them.

I can recount years of personal stories here in Ireland that have effected the way I view them.

Now I will start by saying that I know a few that are alright. But that being said I know a lot more that are not.

I'll start with one of my more recently accounts. A few years ago I had to apply for my Irish driving license. I had been driving on an American one for years until it expired. In the town where I live there is a small stretch of road leading up to an old Abbey that they use for the test. There are a few manoeuvres they you have to preform for the test and the RSA uses this road for testing purposes.

The day of my test, which in Ireland costs €75 and takes SIX MONTHS to get due to the waiting list I got a phone call telling me it was cancelled until further notice. Why? Travellers (Irish term for gypsys) had moved onto the road in question and they couldn't give the test.

At first I was like ok, because they said they would ring back with a new date as soon as they were moved. I waited two weeks and rang them. They said they were still there and we would have to wait. I rang the head RSA office and asked if they could just do the test somewhere else, but they told me to have another official test site they have to go through a process which would take months and have to be approved by a government committee after an extensive study was done - the whole thing costing thousands and taking well over a year at least.

Now you can't just go an move them, they have certain rights, so the land owner had to get a court injunction, then it had to be filed, they had to be notified and each step of this process takes months because public notices have to be posted. Long story short it was 11 months before they finally got the legal paperwork done to move them.

I was without a license for 11 months as was everyone else in my county because of this. They had a huge backlog, but luckily since I was literally one of the first they cancelled I took the test just a few days after they were shifted.

Sure, I could have went to another county, but that would be equal to going to another state in America. Should I have to drive a couple of hours to another state to take a driving test because four families have decided to setup a campsite on a public road?

That shows a total disregard for the public. They were told by the police the first day the issue, and they did not care.

When they did move they left behind a mountain of trash, an open air sewer, and burned ground where they had been having campfires every night.

It cost the local council tens of thousands to fix the damage they caused, thats my tax money at work, and they had to erect special barriers to block off the road, more of my tax money spent.

Thats just the first story that comes to mind. I have a million of them. I could write a book. A really big book.

More recently in the small town I live in here in Ireland (population 5000) there has been a feud between two traveller families. It has been on going for a couple of years now. Something about one man cheating on another mans wife. In their community, this is a big thing. So big there have been multiple shootings, knife attacks, a guy got knocked down with a truck, and the best two - one family threw a LIVE GRENADE into a terrace home - thank GOD it failed to detonate and most recently they attacked one man with machettes and cut off a few of his fingers.

Now if they want to do all of this out in a field it is fine, but it all has happened when they were IN TOWN in crowds of people. The machette attack took place while one man was picking up his 5 year old girl from school, so it happened IN THE SCHOOL YARD in front of dozens of small children and their parents who were picking them up.

http://www.clarechampion.ie/index.ph...rticle&id=3196

They have had to call in gards (police) from surrounding counties to patrol our small town due to the violence these two families are engaging in. Per the article link I posted, our local council is paying €4000 a month for mediation services now, in efforts to try and quell the violence two families have unleashed on our streets, in our community.

And it gets better. This article came out last week -

http://www.clarechampion.ie/index.ph...eral&Itemid=60

See with all the violence the settled travellers (ones that have taken up housing paid for by the council/tax payers) have been feuding and destroying each others houses. All the fighitng has destroyed the halting site homes where they are living. Total costs?

€910,288 providing maintenance of its standard 1,550 local authority housing units across the county, compared to over €492,019 looking after just 65 Traveller accommodation units.

That means the local authority spends about €587.28 per family in council houses per year versus €7965.52 per family living in halting sites in Clare. Thats 13.5 X more per family.

It is amazing that 65 families get more than half of what 1,550 families get in a year to pay for their accommodations., thanks to the fact their on going feuds and the cleanup associated is costing everyone else in town almost a million euro a year.

I got plenty more stories for ye. Just let me know. I worked the door and did private security for a while and can tell you stories of how they destroyed pubs, tried to rob building sites, and scammed locals. This is not what I read somewhere, I have lived this and seen this stuff with my own eyes. Thats where my opinion comes from.

http://www.clarepeople.com/wordp5/20...-men-released/

http://www.clarepeople.com/wordp5/20...n-the-streets/

A couple links to article to prove what I have been saying. They don't just move in and park illegally and cause a disruption to the local society, they live in their own world, oblivious to anyone who is not part of their culture. They have no regard for the law, as they do not recognise their authority.

A mate of mine in my bike club was hit by a traveller last year. They hit him, wrecked his bike. Luckily he was all right. A gard was at the other side of the intersection and witnessed the whole thing. They immediately were on the scene and caught the lady driving. She was a traveller. She had no license, no insurance, and the car she had had no NCT or tax. Normally, they would lock you up for some time for all of those offences, but the gards let her leave. Why? They told my mate, she is a traveller, if we arrest her she will be out of the country before the sun goes down and we will never see her again, so why bother arresting her? She still took off and they never saw here again, as they had no real ID on her. I don't know if you would call this 'lucky' but that actually happens so much the insurance company didn't bat an eye lid when he recanted the story, a story the gards themselves told them and put in the official report and he got paid from his insurance, even though it wasn't his fault. No one ever saw the girl again. They don't care about the law and can pack up their caravan and feck off to the UK in a matter of hours, so they don't care about the law.

I got so many more of these stories sure...

If this were just about some hippy-esque types living in a field for free I would totally support that, but it's not. It's about a culture of people who think they are above the law and go out of their way to live a parasitic life off whatever community they blow into.

They survive by stealing, robbing, and scamming. It is true there are many who work seasonal construction jobs, but most of them do not. When I was bouncing I was up in court a few times on assault charges. Every time I was in court there was always a few dozen travellers from around Ireland there and I sat through dozens upon dozens of criminal cases. I witnessed first hand their trials in court. Once they ran a van into a shop and tried to fill it with whatever they could grab. Another time they were stealing building materials off a work site. Actually, that happened a few times. They stole the copper wire out of some buildings that were being renovated. They stole some cars, license plates, I can't think of all of the cases I heard but you get the point.

This is even before I get to the night we in town refer to as the knacker holocaust. I'll save that for another post.

If it's that much of a problem, why cant the government pass some laws to fix the issue? Surely it would be cheaper, and take less time than it has taken already.

What makes a Gypsy, a Gypsy? Look it up.

This isn't very different from the illegal immigration issue here in the United States, if we can come up with ways to deal with that here, then I have no doubt methods of humanely dealing with gypsies can be come up with.

Oh it is very, very different. A totally different kettle of fish.

For one, lets be honest, it is not illegal immigration they talk about. There are tens of thousands of undocumented Irish in America, and at least three Senators including John McCain tried to pass a bill that granted them all citizenship while at the same time they were fighting to take away rights in their own states. It is blatant racism. Granted, we benefit from this, but it doesn't make it right and we don't support it.

More importantly, South American migrant workers provide a HUGE amount of services as well as generate a large chunk of income. There has been report after report from the farmers in California about how they cannot find enough legal workers to harvest crops. This has been the norm for decades now. American's won't do back breaking work in the sun for minimum wage and no benefits. Without those workers, the American agricultural sector would shut down overnight, which is why the government does nothing about it.

Then there is the 'tax' issue. Most people forget you American's are taxed three or four times on the money you get. It amazes me that groups like the new 'tea party' have never bothered to even mention this. You get money from a paycheck, it is taxed right away before you have it in your hand. Secondly, you put it in the bank. Again, you will be taxed on this at the end of the year. Finally, when you buy something with it, you are taxed again. Even if someone works 'under the table' in America, they are paying some form of tax down the line. As we have seen the top American corporations pay NO tax and actually get a REBATE, meaning your tax dollars are going to PAY businesses to stay in business when they are reaping BILLIONS in profits already!

In Ireland, we have a different system and taxes are paid differently. We don't have to file taxes every year, businesses are responsible for the taxes of their employees and the filing of them. We don't pay all of those various sales taxes. If something is taxed the government taxes the business that sells it. It is true it then is passed down to us in some manner, but we never actually pay it, the business will pay it even if we don't buy the product.

In our system, gypsys contribute nothing to society. That really doesn't bother me though, because it's not why we have issue with them, but it does dispel the idea that they are somehow similar to illegals in America. Even though they are legal and born here they still contribute nothing, less than illegals do in America. The issue we have though has nothing to do with taxes, it is the high levels of crime and violence that follow their culture.

Thats not what I mean though, I'm not talking about the reasons behind why the government handles illegal immigration, I mean the methods by which they handle the illegal immigration. We have this huge boarder with mexico, yet somehow the government manages to come up with ways to keep track of them and hunt them down. Biologists manage to keep track of all sorts of animals through identifying marks on them that most people would never notice. These gypsies aren't ghosts surely they can be handcuffed and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law just like anyone else, without having to resort to genocide.

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood your comparison.

Like Duckman said, we have ample laws in place, they just ignore them. It's like nothing you have ever seen in America. They ignore the law blatantly, and since they have no fixed abode they can leave the area and there is nothing anyone can do about it. They don't have proper ID, so finding them again is like finding a needle in a haystack. They live in an area and when trouble arises they just disappear.

Sure, if they murder someone then they will be held without bail, but they make bail on all lesser charges and just disappear. It happens so much the police here have just stopped arresting them in many cases.

Another story - I had a pair of them break into the flat next to mine one night. I caught them in the act, got into a physcial fight. Knives were pulled, I ended up bloodied and bruised and in the hospital. The police showed up and they were still there. They let them leave even while I was protesting. They police then said I would have to call to the station in the morning to fill out a report if I wanted them to do anything. I did. I didn't hear anything until almost two years later when I had just about forgotten the whole thing when the gards rang and asked me if I wanted to come down and sign a form dismissing the complaint. I told them I didn't want to and the gard on the phone told me there wasn't much they could do, and it would be a big help to them if I would do this so they could be done with this case as they had no chance of ever finding the lads involved again and it was basically our word against theirs even if they did.

I ended up going down and meeting the gard and dismissing the thing.

The police here are not like in America. Without guns they don't tend to be as braisen and bold. That being said I wouldn't change that for the world. They are much more down to earth and easy to deal with and talk to. Nine times out of ten if you do something to get their attention (i.e. speeding, out drinking in public, etc.) they will just talk to you and let you off with a verbal warning. No reason to make them into a heavy handed para-military force just to deal with the travellers. We have creative ways of dealing with the gypsy problem ourselves, and the nice somewhat docile police force let us off with our ways, so it works out for the best you could say.

I could tell you stories about that as well... ;)

Traditional Gypsys are fine by me, but there are very few about. Travelers can fuck right off.

Gypsies and Nomads are okay people who are at least trying to take care of themselves while traveling the open roads. I suppose there are still rights for people, yet here in Utah we have burn days; ergo, days people cannot have campfires. It is kind of hostile.

The gypsies I met in Romania were pretty violent if you ask me. I had scary little children coming up and pinching me out of nowhere, to give them whatever I was carrying on me...I also came close to getting bit. The grown ups I saw were clearly psycho because they had self inflicting cuts all over their arms. Obviously I don't think they should be terminated, but something NEEDS to be done for the children :(

I am disgusted by people's attitudes. Sure teens can be relentless in desires to drink and party all the time, yet what I know about gypsies is they travel with the seasons to find work. There is nothing weird about traveling to where the jobs are. So they are not rich enough to afford multiple homes.

If anything they are being picked on. Another law ruining their lives or at least not protecting them is this thing of having to work consecutive years to gain tenure. I knew a guy, not a gypsie (close enough for my definition), who worked at the resorts. In summer he worked in Arizona. In winter he worked in Utah. He was available during their peak seasons and after five years he should have had tenor, but they denied his benefits because he didn't work there all year around.

Now that is a smack in the mouth!

Just last year a bill passed stating that a person has to live in the district they represent for six months before taking office. Another slap at gypsies and nomads. Now they are losing political rights.

I hope they don't try doing the same with regular voting. It makes sense to register to the state most likely to inhabit during November and recieve absentee ballots for any other election like the primaries.

You know, people living a gypisie lifestyle are not bad people. I know someone whose family travelled all around the southern states to tend to farms and ranches for minimal pay for generations. They travelled with the seasons taking up minimal space on private property. They do a lot of work for people and it feels like people want to get rid of this way-of-life.

As a minority they should have just as many rights and protections. So they are not the media ideal of family. They are people. They are industrius and a part of american culture. They are not the only poeple who everyone forgot about after the Brady Bunch either. And slander against them as being practioners of magic, foretunetellers and what not is just wrong.

That's why a said living a gypsie type of lifestyle, because "gypsie" has become a slanderous name amongst gypsies.

Yea dude. On my travel through Europe, they were to be avoided at all costs. And this coming from me! At that point in my life I was a drug addled nut.

Why the fuck is Catch making so much sense in here? And how the fuck can you guys be ok with sounding worse than she?

Actually from what I've read American Gypsies are quite different from European Gypsies.

Thank you Alan, Still Jack, emeraldlonewoulf, JCC and Renatus(kind of). At least there is one other person on the site who understands everyone's rights should be protected and no one is a pest.

At times I almost feel like making commentary towards genocide, hypocracy and totaliaranism towards a few of you people.

I was kind of making a joke. This issue is not really addressed in modern politics and media. Maybe it should be though. The idea of anyone having such negative ideas about gypsies and nomads is appauling.

(I'm not sure if vin is being funny.)

They are professional criminals who operate outside the law. They aren't some wandering group of migrant workers who are looking for a communal existence.

Unless you have lived in Europe and lived among them, you have no perspective on this and have no idea what you are saying.

They aren't being persecuted because of racism, it's because they engage in extremely violent and illegal activity.

Think about the 'gangsta' lifestyle that say some people in South Central LA lead. Would you say the government is 'discriminating' against 'gangstas' or gang members? Should gangs like the bloods and crips be able to do whatever they want because it is their lifestyle?

Or what about drug cartels? Seems a few governments are discriminating against their rights.

This isn't a case of discrimination, this is a case of criminal behaviour. Did not one person even read the links I posted?

@Catch

Regarding the 'voting rights' you are on about, that is the stupidest thing ever. Do you not think these things out before you type them? Could you not see where allowing people who recently moved to vote can cause an issue?

In Europe, you have to live in a place for TWO YEARS before you can vote in that district. That is not discrimination, that is to keep large groups of nomadic people from being paid to move from area to area to vote for whoever is paying them. If you live in a town of 5,000 - an average sized Irish town, and you need only a couple hundred votes to secure a seat in office, hiring a group of a couple hundred people to move into town and vote for you is something that is easily achievable. It's called parachuting voters. Some villages in Ireland only have a few hundred residents, meaning a few dozen blow-ins could mean an unknown takes all of the seats in an election.

Also, there are almost identical laws in America for the same reason. If they didn't have those laws you could have any group that wanted to take over a small town do so.