Disputed Bands
 

There are bands that are both embraced and rejected by the Goth community, these are the disputed bands, simply give your opinion on them, or add to the list.

list:

Nightwish
Evanescence
Marilyn Manson
Cradle of Filth
Disturbed
Hatebreed
HIM
Slipknot
Nine Inch Nails
Linkin Park
KoRn

That's all I've got for now...

Except for Nine Inch Nails, who have toured with Bauhaus, none of those bands are even remotely 'embraced' by the goth subculture.

You want real 'disputed' bands?
Nosferatu, Tragic Black, and to a certain point Lacrimosa.

Fuck, I meant to post this in the music forum...oh well

You'd be suprised, lot's of the babygoths think those bands are gothic...anything Hot Topic shoves down kids throats these days; they take it.

Nightwish and Marilyn Manson. Maybe Cradle (listen to midian)

Yes I know neither are goth but they embrace gothic attributes. Manson has recently embraced a more gothic image and sound. Nightwish has that romantic atmosphere to them.

I don't think NIN can very much be embraced just cause he performed with Peter Murphy, who himself does not concider Bauhaus to be goth.

I will add, Skinny Puppy, My Dying Bride and Type O Negative.

Although CoF have some gothic literature references in their lyrics, I would never consider them goth ( even though I do like them ).
I would add Dimmu Borgir to the list.

This thread is going to suck dick. Why? Because there's apparently going to be a lot of people who's going to try to justify their own favorite artists as at least marginally goth and those that know better wont give a shit and those that don't will only hope to fit in.

So far, I see no dispute of said mentioned bands. They're not goth rock. Pretty simple, really.

I think it will suck more because gother than thou individuals will try to tell everybody what isn't goth.

The Birthday Party.

You're right in every way on this one. Usually because the gother than thou individuals ARE also the ones that know better and those that don't know better usually end up hoping they at least miss the mark by a couple of feet instead of a few miles. Sadly, this isn't the case. I mean, we're saying that Manson and Nightwish are disputable goth rock? You know, I could understand Depeche Mode or The Smiths to be more mistaken in genre, but those two aforementioned acts? Sheesh.

You keep putting 'rock' at the end of that. Rock had nothing to do with the topic.

So much for knowing better. You're on a completely different subject.

...What the fuck are you talking about? Obviously this is a thread disputing if mentioned bands are goth or accepted by the goth community.

Well damn. Allow me to clarify this so no one is confused. From my experiences going to the various goth clubs in different cities, I have never ONCE heard any of these bands played or even mentioned in casual conversation amongst the patrons of those clubs.

You want to talk about Goths disputing the validity of these mentioned bands? Well what kind of goth are we talking about? The goth that KNOWS what goth music is or the spooky kid babybat that likes to try to validate their existence with a power word such as goth because it somehow makes them special.

There's not even a dispute here in the least. There are those that know what goth music is those that don't.

The best anyone can come up with on the case that these bands are in the least bit Gothic is if they ever write lyrics that resemble the styles of Gothic literature. Even when that's brought up, we're still stuck knowing that Gothic literature styled lyrics does not make a goth community consider these groups to be a part of the pantheon of goth music/Rock.

So no, sorry, any goth venue worth its salt is not going to play goth "metal" or goth "rap". They're going to play Goth Rock. But if they're REALLY good, they'll throw in some Post Punk and Deathrock, maybe even some 80s Industrial.

Typical elitist nonsense. It's this kind of self diluted dribble that sets you in the same box with other stagnant and boring people who fear change and are unwilling to grow in any aspect of their own personal interests. You tear down somebody else's completely valid logic that gothic qualities equal gothic appeal with your vapid claims that what you first heard to be gothic music must be continuously regurgitated and indulged upon or it can no longer fit the bill.

Well go ahead and keep 'goth' safe for yourself then. Let it be your comfort blanket and don't share it with anybody that doesn't play a slow, distorted 4/4 beat and croon like Morrisey.

And if my definition of what you, oh enlightened one, know goth to be; Please correct me. You can't though. Go ahead and give us your "Its just something you get or something you don't" bullshit.

"Oh I go to the goth club so I can be my true self around people who 'get it'." Grow a brain. That's some of the most juvenile self diluted garbage I've ever heard.

Eclipsing The Son, it's got nothing to do with 'fearing change' or any of that bullshit. Goth rock isn't subjective. The listed bands have genres of their own- for instance a fair few are metal.

It's like describing Avril Lavigne as 'hardcore punk'. It isn't a matter of opinion, it's just wrong.

It's not like I'm trying to be an elitist.

What I'm getting at, comrade, is if someone is playing a country song, there's no way it can be metal.

You can't call the color green, orange.

Goth music, or better yet, Goth Rock, since that is what I'm talking about is fairly definable as a genre of music. Usually, it's heavily introverted lyrics, jangly guitars, tribal-like drums, with a heavy emphasis on bass guitar. Usually, an atmospheric synth will be played along with the music.

I'm not trying to safeguard the word goth. But what I would like to know is why you want to use goth to empower or label your dark aesthetic.

He never said that it is just something that you "get" he said that there are those who know what classifies and those that don't. Those who are more knowledgeable about music are the ones who are more likely to know what classifies, whether or not they are a part of the subculture, it isn't a hard concept to grasp.


As for the actual topic I agree about Skinny Puppy, they really are more industrial or whatever but they are kind of borderline.

If I were just trying to make myself feel more secure in my gothness then I would throw in Queen as well because Queen is my all time favorite band, but lets face it no lead singer of a gothic band would ever wear a purple, sequined, lycra unitard.

RE: KontanKarite
 

We aren't talking about goth rock though. If you do research plenty of the bands I've listed can be noted for their gothic qualities. Be they use of poetic lyrics or instrumentation through use of keyboards or organ to give the effect of gothic atmosphere. Again I will suggest you drop the rock subject as the subject of the thread is simply goth aesthetic used well by mentioned bands, perhaps leading to their enjoyment by people of goth culture and not whether they are goth rock or if they get played in your goth clubs.

Until you can grasp onto the subject I'm done wasting time on such close minded mentalities as yours.

Gothic and Goth are not the same thing.

Goth is a very rigid subculture stuck in permanent 1980s.

Gothic is a quality that something can possess, being dark or foreboding etc. etc.

While some Goth things may also be Gothic, Gothic things aren't necessarily Goth.

You just made that up.

The suffix of 'ic' in the word gothic means something that is of or pertaining to goth.

And we're not talking about 'gothic qualities'
We're talking about bands sort of accepted by the goth community, which is about gothic rock and deathrock and that stuff. That's what it said in the first post.
That's why bands like Depeche Mode ought to be named and not things like Nightwish.
If this were about painting and literature, it wouldn't make much sense in mentioning To Kill A Mockingbird and American Gothic.

Bollocks! You trumped me with the 'Gothic architecture and use of the word 'Gothic' came after the Goth movement of the 1980s' argument!

What about 16 Horsepower?

Fighting fire with fire, baby.

Going down the list by Genre:

Nu-metal:
Linkin Park
KoRn
Slipknot
Disturbed

Alternative:
HIM
Evanescence

Industrial Pop / Industrial Rock:
Marilyn Manson
Nine Inch Nails

Other:
Cradle of Filth (Extreme Metal)
Nightwish (Power Metal / Symphonic Metal)
Hatebreed (Hardcore Punk)

None of them are gothic.
Industrial culture can be a sister culture to gothic culture as I understand it, but Manson's even rejected by that community because in my opinion he's has next to no talent and has made a career out of being shocking. Manson has a few of the musical threads of being industrial but none, none of the artistic.
NIN is a little more apropriate to call industrial, but in a very mainstream way. I'd say comparing NIN to Ministry or Throbbing Gristle is like comparing The Ramones to a Hardcore band.

There are just as many people who will argue that NIN is not industrial as there are that will argue that NIN is not goth.