OWS, Racism and the Establisment Media
So, I just got the time to get around a computer and type this up. Sorry it's taken so long, but I've had a CRAZY couple of days.
Originally, this was going to be a reply to Versus in this thread, however I felt that this was a broad enough topic that it deserved it's own thread. So, to catch up, this is the claim made by Saya: Quote:
Now, It's important to note here that largely, I am not disputing Saya's facts. What I am stating is that she has 1) a skewed perspective of the movement based largely upon exaggerations fed by a corporate media which is overwhelmingly interested in slandering Occupy Wall Street. and 2) A fundamental misunderstanding about what Occupy is, and how it functions. Now some of this, I got into in the other thread, but I'd like to clear things up, as well as address Versus's questions, and criticism of the Movement, and my own attitude towards it. To begin: Quote:
The first and most glaring is our opposition to Stop and Frisk Which is a racist policy carried out by the City of New York, primarily against Black and Latino men (85% of stop and Frisks targeted these two racial groups, and 90% did not result in arrest or conviction of any crime whatsoever. This is a policy which virtually no white man ever has to fear being targeted by, yet this has become a major issue for Occupy Wall Street. Our opposition to Stop and Frisk is more than just protesting and getting thrown in jail over a policy which largely does not effect white males we also have an anti-stop and frisk workgroup which is funded by occupy money, and facilitated by a woman. Second, Occupy has declared solidarity with indigenous peoples, Welcomed those who came to join our ranks and officially endorsed and incorporated proposals brought forth by some of the Native Peoples who met with us in solidarity. We also took a stand against Columbus day, and with many indigenous activists who came to NYC to protest the Columbus day parade. We have held multiple anti-racist education sessions and Teach-Ins, and been joined by former black panthers our library has carried BPP literature and we have had multiple speakers of color (or as Saya would put it "Tokens") who have taken their time to help educate us both on matters of race and activism. For instance, a little while ago we had a panel which among others featured both Cisco Torres and Laura Whitehorn both of which are former Black Panthers, and lifelong activists. We have multiple important work and affinity groups which are facillitated by people of color, most notably the Tactical Action Committee in LA, and Occu-Evolve here in NYC and of course Occupy The Hood Recently, I and other die-hard Occupy Wall Street protestors joined up with NYU students and Gilbert Baker in a protest against NYU's welcoming of a Chick-Fil-A in the west village, just blocks from Christopher Street and the Stonewall inn. Now Saya would dismiss this as "Tokenism" which the movement affects in order to not lose it's liberal street cred/avoid being seen as a racist movement, but that's simply not consistent with the facts; for one thing Occupy is NOT all white men, as I have said and shown it is extremely diverse both in its membership and in the issues it addresses, and when minority groups make their voices heard, more often than not, they are heeded: <---**Anyone worried about racism and sexism in Occupy needs to read this whole article, it's long but it's VERY good, and it's worth it** |
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With every arrest Occupy becomes more radical, more anti-capitalist, and more revolutionary. This is a very good thing, because shit has been getting freaking gonzo nuts lately, and if we all don’t want to find our respective countries goose-stepping through a robo-cop hell anytime soon, something radical needs to be done. So how did Occupy come to be seen as “a movement plagued with white privlege, Ron Paul wankers, neoliberals and reformers” dominated by Chauvinist, Racist, White Men so un-aware of their own privilege that “every occupier is a frustrated dictator”? Well, there are a number of reasons…for one thing, Occupy is a multi-cultural, multi-national, multi-ethnic, populist movement taking place in a world which has been dominated by Capitalist oppression and propaganda for centuries. It is only natural that there are going to be clashes, misunderstandings, rudeness, criminal activity, and downright crazy bullshit. That’s life, and it’s further complicated by Occupy’s Lateral Anarchist Structure. Versus brought up a point in the other thread actually: Quote:
Occupy has none of this, it is an Anarchist movement dedicated to the dismantling of illegitimate heirachal power structures, not by working within those structures, but by bypassing them entirely, and instead approaching the problem through bottom up egalitarianism and direct action. This is evident in the Declaration of the Occupation: Quote:
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I am not overlooking this stuff. Nor are other members of Occupy. As you can see, this stuff has been addressed and will continue to be addressed. What I am pointing out to you, Saya, and anyone else who bought in to the narrative that Occupy is just a bunch of racist, privileged white men flying the colors of revolution in an effort to reclaim their middle class and replace our current dictators with themselves, is that this narrative is a lie. Not only that, it is a lie of omission. |
Many of the bad narratives about Occupy spring from an article by Gina Belafonte of the NYtimes. The positions which you, and Saya, along with thousands of other bloggers, and members of the mainstream press are still echoing.
Let me explain how this works: 1) Multi-Ethnic, Multi-Racial, Cross Generational protestors of both genders meet under the umbrella of Occupy Wall Street. 2) Friction results from these groups not being used to interacting, and problems inevitably arise. These problems are made more difficult due to the protest itself being an umbrella over a number of minoritized causes (from ‘Free Puerto Rico’ to ‘No Fracking’) as opposed to a set of hegemonized ideals under a traditional heirachal power structure. 3) The establishment Corporate media, intent on silencing this movement picks up on these problems, and amplifies them to the population at large, focusing only on the problems and not on the why, how, or what is done about them. Those who are within the corporate media’s reach (ie: everybody) then is effected by this propaganda and begins to look for evidence to confirm the bias which was planted by the establishment. As a result well-meaning, intelligent people who are not involved in the movement are scared away/actively work to denounce the movement. 4) No one wins except the 1%. Rinse and repeat. It is NOT that I am dismissing your facts, nor that I am refusing respond when occupiers behave badly. This is to be expected, and when I see it, I take them to task for it. What I am saying is that you only have a very NARROW view as to what is going on in Occupy, and you are focusing on and critiquing a small (but still important) aspect of the movement (the fact that there ARE dumb, racist, and/or crazy people involved with occupy) and then ascribing that critique to the entire movement at large and demanding I apologize for it and/or denounce them with you. Again, I do not support these people but I have no power to throw them out of occupy, and if I focus on them as you have, I damage the very GOOD and important things that Occupy is doing while playing directly into the anti-revolutionary establishment’s left’s hands. I am not saying that you are incorrect to be concerned about them. I am concerned about them. I am not saying your facts are wrong, what I am saying is that your perspective ON these facts in incorrect, because of all of these other facts which you are now aware of. TL;DR – Stupid, Racist, Chauvinist people suck, but as Saya pointed out, those people aren’t endemic to Occupy, they don’t control Occupy, nor are they well-liked IN Occupy, so please stop blaming myself and Occupy for them, and instead get involved and help me to make OUR voices louder. PEACE. OUT. http://katerawlings.com/wp-content/u.../peace_out.jpg |
Note: My bad, made a mistake Laura is a member of the weather underground, not the Black Panthers. I was confused because she spent a great deal of time at the panel speaking about the Black Panthers, and I'm so tired from this weekend that the two just decided to merge in my head for some reason.
I am also dismissing the large majority of the facts about the rapes and **** culture. THere have been sexual assaults but these are few and far between and many have been made up and exaggerated by folks like Andrew Breitbart. |
OMG dude, seriously? "I'm not disputing your facts, although it is a media conspiracy and probably made up and exaggerated (because most rapes are made up, amirite)", is that really all you got?
Story time. Did you know feminism spawned out of the abolitionist movement? They fought to end slavery. But first wave feminism was very largely racist, and included women who supported eugenics, who argued that white men were treating them like "negroes", and even women who fought to be allowed to join the KKK. With movements now, most people are in theory against racism. They can fight laws and policies but not their own privilege. And basically what you're saying is, you'll fight the law, but not racists. You'll call the government out on it's bullshit, but not other people in Occupy. How can you call yourself an ally if you think racists in Occupy have the right to chase out aboriginal drummers and never hold them responsible for it? That security has the right to tell victims of sexual assault that the perpetrator has more of a right to be there than they do, and they're causing division? Do you really wonder why so many different groups view you as sexist and racist? Its tokenism because that's how you're treating it. Its the "I have a black friend so I can't be racist" excuse. You'll listen, and some may feel they're having success, but obviously its not totally getting through. I've been to a workshop led by First Nations people and they said they felt they got through, THE VERY NEXT DAY WITH THE SAME GROUP WHO WAS THERE white people were totally dominating a discussion on racism and colonialism, making it about Quebec liberation, and women of colour understandably stormed out and never came back. It doesn't matter than I personally am not racist, it doesn't matter that most white people there weren't racist. That was allowed to happen, no one was held accountable, and nothing productive got done in the end. Obviously I still believe in feminism, I'm not saying you should quit Occupy, but you have got to accept why people don't want to associate with you when you're unwilling to hold people like that accountable. |
Now Saya, I really should be ignoring you because you're not a person of Color, this is a response to Versus, remember? :D:D:D
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2) I DO hold them responsible for it. THEM. I don't hold "Occupy" responsible for it because "Occupy" INCLUDES those same abortiginal drummers. Quote:
I am NOT one of the men who calls you sweety (though I may be NOW because I know it pisses you off) and talks over you. I fuck with you because I respect you. I respond to you, I make sure your voice is heard and I am as brutal towards you as I would be towards any man. I will hold your feet to the fire for the same reason I hope you hold mine, because that's the only way either of us will get better. I don't appreciate you projecting your problems with other people onto me. That's dismissive, disrespectful, and stupid. 2) I don't wonder. I actually explained a huge reason why these perceptions exist. Quote:
What else can I do? Is it by virtue of the accusation alone that the entire movement is guilty of racism and sexism? Where is your burden of proof Saya? Because you seem more than willing to dismiss any evidence to the contrary no matter what it is. Quote:
What I don't do is contribute to the anti-revolutionary media narrative that uses these problems as ammunition in an ad-hominem attack on Occupy itself. |
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Wait, you do remember writing this, right?
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And yes, you are dismissive. You've said, in your posts, that the media is out to paint you as bad, so our facts aren't straight, and sexual assault is being exaggerated. You said that. It doesn't matter to you that people are having a hard time with Occupy, you said you created this thread to focus on Versus but have mostly focused on me, again. The whole thing is funny because when he posted in the other thread originally he said to me that he's probably going to get ignored, and he did. Intersectionality is revolutionary, and if criticism isn't accepted, the movement is bullshit. You can't have racists chasing off aboriginal drummers (who haven't returned to OWS from what I understand, so no they are no longer part of the movement) and say they both belong. |
Also interesting, according to surveys OWS is infact mostly white and male:
http://www.fordham.edu/images/academ...s%20102611.pdf http://www.fastcompany.com/1789018/o...ics-statistics http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1..._n_998722.html |
I should rephrase my question. "How has OWS addressed the concerns of non-whites about OWS? Where has that discourse come to?"
I appreciate the work you have to done to answer my question. I know you put a lot of effort into it, and I hate to bother you about it, but I don't really feel like you addressed it. I'm interested in the internal struggle to fight racism within the movement. Quote:
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As far as what you're supposed to do about it? I don't know. I'm not an activist, and I don't have any experience with it. I'll try to look into it and come back with an answer, though. I'll tell you that "Nothing" isn't a good one, though. At least if you're interesting in drawing people to OWS. Quote:
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That's not what I said. D:
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Desp have you ever heard of the term "denial of subjectivity"? Because I see an awful lot of that coming from you in both this thread and the other. You keep claiming that OWS is so perfectly wonderful that the things we have mentioned couldn't be widespread within it but you haven't addressed people's personal experiences in any sort of meaningful way.
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And the true Scotsman thing.
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Also, I'm glad your girlfriend doesn't have cancer, too. |
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So prejudice is an irrational dislike of somebody, or a group of people, and when you hold them to a specific belief, typically a steriotype, that isn't necessarily true. I think everybody does this to an extent. But remember, it's possible to harbor these feelings and not act on them. Discrimination is when you do act on that prejudice. That's not practicing racism or sexism. This is still the individual level. Racism and sexism is when an entire culture acts on this prejudice from a position of power to such an extent that the behavior becomes the norm. When people do it consciously, unconsciously. It manifests in different ways, but the bottom line is that those who are in a position of power within their class are the ones least likely to recognize their position and the privilege it affords because they are within a society that benefits them. I have privilege. You have privilege. Saya has privilege. There are some types that we share, and some types that the others have. What you don't see is that when you hold the words of women and people of color against each other, it's practicing sexism and racism. Despanan, what you're doing is piting the input and opinions of minorities against each other and supporting those that suite you. You are supporting the subserviant ones. It divides the group and lifts you up. Can you see why you're practicing racism and sexism, now? Quote:
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I can see both sides of this one. What both Versus and Saya's evidence seems to highlight is that the left are far from immune to the bullshit fallacies born of privilege commonly seen from the right. This is lamentably true, in my experience: having sat in on SWP meetings where everyone has actually sat there and agreed that combating racism is a more immediate priority than fighting sexism - some of the women included - I have jack-shit patience for people who are all, "Yah, that's a problem, but honestly, it's not at the top of the list right now - mayhaps we'll look into that shit when we live in an otherwise perfect world". The second you start allocating importance like that, your side becomes a little weaker, because when you're standing against the establishment it is all connected.
To be fair, though, I'm not really hearing that in Despanan's view - what he seems to be saying is that these problems are in fact very important ones, which he and others are doing their utmost to neutralise wherever they see them; while asking us to keep in mind that they are not the sum of Occupy, the normal standard of behaviour of the avergae Occupier, and should not allow the out-of-hand dismissal of Occupy's aims and achievements to date. (Although the "rapes and sexual assaults are being exaggerated" comment was ill-advised; I take the point that they're useful to those who seek to illegitimize Occupy, but still - perpetuating **** culture in the attempt to address feminist concerns is SO not helpful, and downright alienating. I'd rather hear what's been done to make Occupy safe for women than be told that it's simply been blown out of proportion by The Media. Unaccompanied by specific examples of PROVEN lies about **** as it was, frankly that just sounds offensive.) I guess problems with racism and sexism in Occupy are inevitable to a point, as long as these things continue to be problems of society at large. As to whether enough is being done to combat these problem within Occupy, I couldn't say; my only information comes from bloggers and news sources. And my own protest experience tells me that opinions formed on such second-hand accounts are rarely worth much. It IS true that mainstream media tends to play up the disruptive and sensationalist elements of protests to a disproportionate degree. It's good that you guys are having this discussion, though. The only way to pull Occupy's socks up is for everyone in it to be having this dicussion. General thoughts on these issues: the only solution I can see is for everyone involved leftist movement to pull their heads out of their arses, and realise that not only are they all on the same side, but that their struggles are completely inextricable from one another. No one issue is subordinate to any other, and if it is, then the movement will tear itself apart. Racism is not more important than feminism is not more important than economic inequality is not more important than gay rights is not more important than disabled rights, and anyone who tries to privilege one of these narratives over and above the others is missing the point. |
I should point out re: my last paragraph that the nature of privilege puts the burden for this change on the majority, to listen to marginal voices. Reading back it just sounds like "You lot all want your heads knocking together and you're all as bad as each other", which is emphatically NOT what I meant. The power balance is unquestionably unequal; so, therefore, is the responsibility.
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Not exactly. The argument that Desp is making is that, while he recognizes that occupy has problems here and there, he doesn't believe that he, or the movement itself, practices sexism and racism.
To speak nothing of the movement, while Desp is not racist or sexist, he is nevertheless adhering to it. OWS is, according to the extremely conservative survey, 61% Male and 68% White, while NYC is 48% Male and 44% White. He's using "My friend is a woman, my friend is a person of color" as evidence that occupy is representative - a common excused to fall back on. When Saya pointed out that he is ignoring the numerous instances of **** culture and racism, all legitimate criticisms, his reponses ranged from exercising his privilege to either make it about himself, pass the responsibility off to the individual perpetrators with a "no true scotsman" fallacy, try to justify that other movements have similar problems as if that makes it okay, blamed the media for exaggerating or blowing those real concerns out of proportion to marginalize their meaning, and down right ASK FOR PROOF instead of acknowledging that, from his privilege, he might not recognize these instances of sexism and racism. And that's just the top of my head on my cell phone. |
Ah, okay. I read the whole thing but fairly hurriedly, so I guess it's possible that having been on the other side of a mending-is-better-than-ending debate with Saya before, i was just seeing what I expected to see.
Despanan - you seemed to touch upon both of these viewpoints in your arguments, but I'm curious as to which one dominates your thinking on the subject the most. Is your argument that OWS is all kinds of -ist in the same way as the society that spawned it, but that attempts are being made to deal with this as effectively as possible, and that meanwhile we can't throw away the movement because it isn't completely utopian (because how can it be, when it's the direct result of rampant injustice that breeds social poison)? Or simply that these problems exist, but not on the scale that a biased media would have us believe, and are usually isolated incidents? |
You know...
I'm glad this conversation is happening. I feel like I'm learning a lot from just reading this stuff. |
So I want to make sure I've got this stuff straight. Firstly, I don't go to any of the protests. I'm actually quite ignorant as to what goes on in Occupy.
You see... I tell my friends that the fastest way to silence Occupy is to increase taxes on the rich, socialize medicine, education, and perhaps even bring in new laws about student loans that lessens the burden on those in debt. If we were to do this, Occupy would act as if they accomplished the revolution. Sure... things in America would change for almost everyone while perhaps the world remains unchanged. And it leaves me thinking about what it means to live in a communist or anarchist society with the old prejudices and the racial/gender/orientation/religious privileges in place. So what I'm thinking is what does it mean when the economic and worker control problems are solved but nothing else is? What kind of world would that be? Frankly, I don't think Saya or Versus or really anyone who suffers at the machinations of white male privilege wants Occupy to go away. It is a powder keg of real change if one can start getting those who enjoy privileges to recognize where they come from in life. It has to do it correctly. I remember when I read about Orwell's account of Anarchist Catalonia. An anarchist society, people! And there were moments and scenes where something seemed oddly sexist and there were some times where Orwell was treated differently in Spain because he was from somewhere else. I think the point is; there are systems that people want. Occupy is pretty red as far as wanting to be socialist and one can commend Occupy for that. But then what of the culture? Am I on to this, guys? Do I get it or am I still missing the mark? |
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If it were to happen here, I could imagine it easily. Equal in theory but not practice, I've been told (can't say there's a strong anarchist presense here so no first hand knowledge) that feminists have problems in anarchist groups due to being stuck with "women's work," in the kitchen. And to echo what Cuckoo said I've heard "after the revolution comes we'll worry about sexism" and variations of before. If revolution is to happen as is, I could easily see other forms of oppression still existing. Economic oppression might be harder to get away with, of course, but that's about it. Quote:
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I don't think Occupy is decidely radical and revolutionary, and would be happy with reform. I'd love to see a statistic on how |
sorry about the last sentence, meant to delete it and I can't even remember what that thought was D:
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It's fucking insulting to other activists. It's like shit doesn't matter until it reaches them, and then they try to get minorities on board with their movement by expressing solidarity like their struggles are the same when minorities have been fighting alone for years and nobody gave a shit. Tim Wise compares it to the Titanic. He says when the ship hits an iceberg, the first ones to get wet are the poor kids in steerage. They try to sound the alarm to everybody above them, but they all say "This ship can't fucking sink" until there's water lapping at their feet. That being said, you're right. I want Occupy to work. My worry is that, upon finding a measure of success for some, they'll quit and throw minorities under the bus again. IT HAS TO BE DONE CORRECTLY. |
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