No. I'm sorry if he/you took it that way.

I'm not blaming folks for not wanting to get involved, that makes sense.

I'm pointing out the fact that regardless of that, Occupy is a good chance, perhaps the best chance in decades to make some headway in that department.

Is it fair? No. Is it right? Maybe not. Is it a fact? Yes.

In order to move forward there needs to be a dialogue.

Well for one thing when are these conversations happening? At the GA? At the at the spokescouncil? At the park?

Have either of you gotten together with other women and formed a working group? Have you brought feminists and like-minded people to the GAs? Have you Mic.-Checked them?


There's a difference between criticizing and calling out discrimination, and extending that critique to the entire movement.

And NOW they finally are. Is it fair? No. Is it right? No. But the revolution has to happen sometime and if OWS has "waves" like feminism, alot more people will be hurt, *****, killed, exploited and discriminated against.

You say this but at the same time it doesn't feel like even here we have a dialogue, we have two competing monologues. Many of the questions asked aren't getting direct answers, I know part of that is that you love the movement and so you see everything wonderful about it and that can make it more difficult to see the ugly stuff, this is human nature so I get it but if it feels like we are harping on the same points over and over again it is because we don't feel like you are really seeing what we are trying to get across.

First just with the protestors then I figured that there may be better luck at the GA but that was actually even worse. Since then I've also been at various events that Occupy Norfolk has been a part of and still very much felt pushed aside and looked down on by the Occupiers, even when the overall tone of the event was very inclusive.

I want to be clear that I'm not wanting Occupy to be better and more inclusive than your average political protest or whatever, the issue here is that my experiences with these Occupiers has been much more negative than with any movement that I can remember.

No, I didn't think it would be necessary, I never have in the past with other groups, many much larger than the crowd at the GA, and my experience was such that I don't feel that it is worth it for me to bother, especially as Jake did none of those things and people were more than willing to listen to him.
But if the movement is doing nothing to address those issues then I do feel that it is fair to extend the critique to the movement as a whole, mind you this is not to accuse every member of being racist or sexist but to say that for things like this to be allowed to become so prevalent is indicative of a very real problem that truly needs to be addressed.

Only they aren't. Some of them are but as a whole not so much.
?

That comment bothers me too. I do have a working group of women and feminist activists. My collective has been around since the eighties, the sexual assault crisis centre where I volunteer has been around since the seventies, there's various groups around town who are just as old or even way older. We were here a long time and we'll be here still when Occupy is gone. Quite a few tried Occupy but had the same misgivings, but you know what? We do got each other at least, and can continue on like we've always had, even through times where activism isn't trendy. Why would we go occupy Occupy? Wouldn't you dismiss that as divisive?

The "waves" of feminism idea only works if you think its the mainstream white feminist movement that counts. The Audre Lordes and the bell hooks of the world kept on fighting when the Betty Friedans of the world felt comfortable, felt the battle was done, and even felt feminism went too far because women cut their hair short and own computers. It is through no fault of the Audre Lordes that the Betty Friedans were selfish assholes.

Also, regards the "Now they finally are." No, its not finally. They've pretended too lots of times before. I don't know if you know this but activist movements, even large ones! Have existed before.

Well shit. I'm convinced.

*Goes off to play some Guild Wars*

Why are the only GW players I know guys in their late twenties?

*sigh*

I don't know.

Is it because you feel too old on WoW or SWTOR?

1. Fuck Wow. It's boring.

2. I'm not in a rush to play SWTOR.

Congratulations Saya, you managed to get someone to stop caring about social justice.

1) I'm sorry, this is one on, like 3 or 4. I work 3 jobs, my work is banned from Gnet, and I have activism and playwrighting to juggle.

If I missed something important please bring it up again and I'll do my best to give you a straight answer.

2) That's pretty dismissive. Are you going to call me sweet-cheek's next.

Here: I'll say it - Not recognizing privilege is Occupies #1 internal problem. Steps have been taken, and are being taken to correct this, but once again, this is a PROCESS


Well I'm sorry that happened. I don't know anything about Occupy Norfolk. It may be that they're just doing it wrong.

That probably has to do with the lateral culture. Other political gatherings are constrained by hierarchy, so the crazies are less likely to speak up less they be banned. Still I contend that other political gatherings still have all of these problems, they're just concealed. At least with Occupy this shit is out in the open and it can be dealt with - and make no mistake it NEEDS to be dealt with, because without a cultural revolution all you'll get are reforms and small concessions.

Sounds like you've got some Macho rednecks. I'd say form a working group and send a proposal to the GA to facillitate more female voices.

1) Teach-ins

2) Facilitation is trained to deal with it

3) Speakers are brought in to lecture on it.

4) It's written in to our official policy

5) Occupiers are writing about it

6) every establishment liberal news source is repeating it ad-nauseaum

7) Our process itself addresses the problem

Why in the fuck do you contend that that nothing is being done? What more do you want?

No worries. I take so long because I can't read so good and am a little slow, so I appreciate your patience.

For ease of understanding, I want to differentiate occupant, OWS, and Occupy as terms that mean different things so there is less confusion in this thread.

Occupy: The global movement as a whole.

General Assemblies: Individual camps within the Occupy movement, such as OWS or Occupy Oakland.

OWS: A part of the Occupy movement based in NYC. I can't make the judgement if it is interchangeable with the NYC general assembly.

Occupant: A member of the global movement. A distinction should be made to associate them with any subdivision thereof, such as "Occupant of OWS."

This is a good point that I already brought up earlier, but you got distracted about the word "concensus." I was trying to say that when occupants of GAs do not adhere to the principals of the GA or it's mission statement or general intent, The GA IS responsible for it as the parent movement which the occupants belong. I'm am not implying that the existence of a hierarchy should be considered to control the occupants actions, but it DOES illiminate the need for accountability in some form or another, such as DIALOGUE within the GA to better communicate it's intent and address the actions of its occupants. That doesn't change if you look at Occupy as a whole. There should be accountability of Occupy Norfolk, and a dialogue should be created to express the concerns that GAs have within one another because ANYTHING less is ignoring a problem within the movement.

And this is why there isn't representation or progress within the movement as a whole, or at the very least, why it is percieved that way. "We have nothing to do with them" is the same as "I have nothing to do with him." You don't see a problem with this? Again, it's not the responsibility of would-be supporters to ignore the problems within the movement as it does of itself, it is the responsibility of the movement to change itself in a meaningful way to foster a environment that occupants can contribute.

Again, you are camps within the same movement. If you don't agree with another GA, it's the others' place to bring it up, JUST LIKE it's the responsibility of occupants of OWS to create dialogue about their concerns within OWS's GA. Isn't that how it works?

What's wrong when you separate these two statements?
I'll try. It's really hard to find on the Internet because nobody talks about it.

At this point, from what you have shown me, I can't deny that OWS is on its way, overall. It's nowhere it needs to be, not by a fucking long shot, but I feel that the fundamental process as I understand it is really great. I have major, major criticisms of it, and some things really disgust me, such as the articles you posted about individual response to million hoodie and Danny Cheng as well as that there wasn't dialogue within the GA (especially if it's the reason you suspect), but I am excited that something is being spoken about, even if it's really small right now. I want it to become larger, and I want people to talk about things that they are uncomfortable with. I want more disgusting articles because it creates the opportunity for it to be corrected, and maybe even understood.

I am also really pessimistic. That fundamental process, as I understand it, is largely absent from the movement as a whole and how it interacts with itself, and that absence trickles down to places like Occupy Norfolk. Where ever the fuck that is. I think that you are taking what you see in OWS and painting the rest of the movement like it.

New question: Why would Occupy, as a global movement, be making any progress if what you think is helping OWS is not present in other GAs?

TL;DR Please fix your shit for me.

HOLY SHIT. FUCK.

STOP attributing their experience as something they did wrong! STOP IT. It is not their god damn fault, it is the fucking movement's. Saya didn't make AshleyO stop caring about social justice, THE SYSTEMS THAT FIGHT SOCIAL JUSTICE DID. Stop trying to justify the movements faults with the faults of others. That doesn't invalidate the criticism.

THAT IS PUTTING BLAME ON THE VICTIM AND RELIEVING THE PERPETRATOR OF CRIME AND ACCOUNTABILITY.

STOP this shit right now or I am going to OCCUPY YOUR GOD DAMN FACE.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was getting at (or trying to) in my first post. It's all connected, and trying to understand a specific kind of prejudice without trying to understand prejudice and privilege in general is inherently limiting.

Totally agreed - to clarify, I'm not against putting the forms which carry the most noxious real-world consequences to the forefront; limited resources, time, energy, etc., are a reality for most marginal movements and that's not the fault of those inside them. I agree that people of colour experience far more socially debilitating and politically oppressive forms of prejudice than I am generally exposed to as a white woman. What I resent though is the general implication that different forms of prejudice are A) separate/unrelated, and the consequential assumption B) that some of them just aren't that important in comparison.

Thanks V, glad to know I wasn't the only one who perceived that post that way. You seem more like a Honey-Child. On a more serious note how exactly is that dismissive, I'm explaining how I'm perceiving your behavior in a pretty direct way. You have taken pages and pages to finally say this: Up to this point you have been speaking as though it is only a few bad apples fucking shit up, when clearly it isn't, and even this statement does not go nearly far enough. It is not just about people not recognizing their privilege but it is also about open and overt discrimination. Also please tell me exactly what steps have been taken to actively deal with this, not passive stuff so that people will hopefully understand that it is wrong, I want to be safe and I want to be respected so I want measures in place so that something is done if someone disrespects me or makes me unsafe.

Really, they may just be doing it wrong? That is such a fucking cop out

Do you really think that Occupy is the only political movement with a lateral culture? It isn't and you need to stop using that as an excuse, the LGBT community here actually switched away from their hierarchy to a lateral community as a way to combat the internal problems that it was having such as discrimination against its trans and bi members, and it pretty much put a stop to those issues as it put everyone on an equal playing field. My experience with Occupy is not an equal playing field but majority rules and a herd mentality where people who do feel that something is wrong feel pressured into not placing constraints on fellow occupiers so this shit goes pretty damn unchecked.

Funny you should say that, everyone seems to make that remark but the rednecks listened, the liberal arts majors didn't. Sure there are acceptation to that but for the most part these rednecks know that they are fairly clueless when it comes to this sort of thing and most of them have never been aware of their privilege, once you plainly show it to them they have the decency to at least take a moment to think about it. By a large majority those liberal arts majors think that they get it, they don't but they get really indignant if you try and call them on it and they get quite hostile.

Occupy isn't the only game in town and I would much rather spend my time working with other groups and getting shit done than sink loads of time and energy trying to get Occupiers to listen to my concerns.

What exactly is being taught and who is being taught? Are these things that are reaching every person or are they more or less preaching to the choir?
How are they trained and how exactly do they deal with it?
See #1, also are they lecturing about discrimination in general or about specific incidents?
And China officially has laws against forced abortions.
They are mostly writing about how despite a few unpleasant events Occupy is really totally inclusive, at best they admit that there is a problem with people not recognizing their own privilege.

Fuck that no they haven't besides how the media portrays something or what they choose to investigate can't be claimed as something that Occupy has done.

Spell out for me precisely how your process addresses the problem because from what I see it only gives the illusion of addressing it.

You may see a lot of "exactly"s and such, because I want specifics, you keep talking in fairly general terms, which is great for a press release but in this situation speaking in general terms is less than helpful. If you want me to feel like Occupy takes our concerns seriously I want to fully know and understand what is being done about them. Also if I know what, specifically, is being done and I don't feel that it is enough then I can make suggestions and point out exactly how and why I think more needs to be done
Because I'm not so naive that I think assurances of things being done means that they are actually being done, and if they are that they will be the least bit effective.
Desp you as an individual have continually been dismissive of our concerns, blamed us for the problems we have faced, and have made excuses for Occupy and you are someone I know to be compassionate, intelligent, and an all around great guy so if you are still acting this way how the hell can I be expected to think that Occupy will welcome me?

Not exactly. I've been doubtful of the whole thing after the first few weeks or so. Which is why after listening to you and saya and solumina and considering what's being said, that it makes me want to take a good step back, throw up my hands, admit I'm wrong, and then just not bother any body. I certainly wouldn't want to be adding to the problems and with all the sexism and racism going around in Occupy, I may as well keep well enough away from it.

Out of curiosity what was it that made you doubtful? Also just because isn't for you that doesn't mean that you can't get involved in another organization or even individual causes. Don't let one small bite of bitterness ruin activism for you.

*sigh*

Look. I see what Argentina did with the occupied factories. I get it to an extent as to why they did all this.

When Occupy started, I didn't think we'd take to the streets. I thought we were going to form new lateral worker groups and unions to the likes that hasn't been seen in a long ass time. I had THOUGHT that workers would stop simply unionizing and working hand in hand with privatization to reach compromises and just plain old start taking their labors back under the banner of direct democracy.

What does this mean? It means the state would have came down and probably KILL thousands in an attempt to defend property.

But I realized that no body is willing or ready to consider what it means to work or live by direct democratic control by the workers. And if it's just me. If it's just one guy, then that's easy to silence.

They ARE drum circle reformers who just happen to have long discussions about all the issues. But just like how May Day was pretty much a joke because there WASN'T a massive wildcat strike, it makes it easy for me to see why you and Versus is pessimistic about Occupy with the other issues.

They're still begging for the master to give them socialism, which is reformism.

Ron Paul 2012. *eyeroll*

Did you see these?

I died a little inside.

Thanks AO, while I don't quite share it I can completely appreciate that perspective.

Tupac said it best.

This guy is alright.

Now I am going to be fair about Occupy. I do think that in some way, when they're said and done, there could be a couple of positive things that came from it.

In other news, I just noticed that SWTOR has a subscription fee. Nah, son. Not interested. GW2 2012!!!

I can get you a 7 day trial if you want to mess with it.

Merp I totally didn't notice Versus post at the same time I did. I died a little myself seeing those and every article like them.
I also have a lot of hope that some positive things will be accomplished by Occupy, I just think that it has so much attention, so much support, and so much momentum that it could make huge, sweeping improvements that would make a truly meaningful change in countless lives, not just from a legal perspective but social and cultural changes, and I don't see that potential being realized.