[AshleyO]

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x

Hard work and self reliance is the only thing that has ever kept people free.

Yes. When does freedom come when you're doing 2 or 3 jobs just to keep your head above water? Can you give me a definition of this word "freedom" you're speaking about and when do we as workers ever have time to enjoy this freedom? What are the fruits of our labors?

Nothing worth having comes easy. You can claim that people are better off on welfare than they are working for a "system that doesn't work", but all you're really doing is saying that people are better off allowing the government to take care of them instead of taking care of themselves.

Yes. You know, slaving away, using the best years of your life is a god damned BEAUTIFUL solution to how we operate in a capitalistic machine. I'm happy to know that by the time I'm old and feeble and practically useless, I might be able to finally have the time to watch my stories on cable TV.

If you're only getting 17 hours a week at your minimum wage job, that allows plenty of time left to work a 2nd job if need be, or learn a skill that you can market.

This has been addressed.

Where is it written that you have to work for a corporation or a factory to make a living without depending on the government? You don't have to have a college degree to learn a skill. Libraries are still free.(Actually, that's socialism at work, holmes.)

Yes. Everyone is an autodidact. You can be first in line for the doctor who got his education reading the medical journals and the text books for free from the library while he NEVER ONCE EVER had any clinical practice. Be my guest. Let him poke you with needles.

There is plenty people can do to earn a living wage that doesn't require working for any corporation or relying on welfare. Wash cars on the weekends. cut grass, paint houses, learn how to do small repairs, run an ad on craigslist advertising whatever it is you know how to do, cause it's just about guaranteed someone will need it done and be willing to pay you.

Do you have an instruction's manual on how to be a human? You seem to see every single person as the exact same with the exact same potential and the exact same mind. This makes no sense. I do understand the fringe elemental people who work on a gig to gig basis. But you're demanding that they simply do more and more and more work no matter what just to get by. TO WHAT END, Deviant? Do you propose the working class simply say, "FUCK LEISURE and FUCK family and FUCK sleep! We work because that's how we get by." Nice, Deviant. That's insane.

You may not get a 6 figure income, and yeah you probably will have to live on ramen for a while. You probably won't be able to afford that house or that fancy new car for a few years, and weekends out with your buddies socializing will likely be few and far between, but you're still freer than you would be depending on the government to provide for you, and you can keep what you earn.

Ugh, that word freedom again. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Explain to us in empirical and clinical detail how being poor yet doing nothing but work indefinitely is somehow freedom. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF SHIT explain that to us.

85% of the US work force is employed by small businesses, not giant corporations.

You're going to have to start citing sources. Deviant, I think you're a liar.

Small businesses that were built from the ground up by hard work, determination and self sacrifice. Something very few people seem to understand anymore. Everyone has an entitlement mentality where they think they deserve to have what their neighbor worked for without working for it themselves. That's not how life works. If you're too lazy to work for what you have, and there's nothing physically preventing you from doing so, then you don't deserve to have it, and you damned sure don't deserve to have it given to you by the people who did earn it.

Man, you really hate people.

And the bit about the farmers and immigrants is bullshit leftist speech. There are plenty of legal citizens that would work those farms if given the chance. Its the farmers that choose to hire the immigrants because they can get away with not paying them as much. Another wonderful benefit the minimum wage laws have given us. It's been proven repeatedly that government regulated minimum wage does nothing but create more poverty. Businesses are forced to downsize in order to cut costs, resulting in more lay-offs, more workers on the unemployment lines, more welfare checks.

That's not an argument against regulations, that's a perfect argument against capitalism. You defined the very nature of capitalism to a tee. Business first and foremost and ever. I bet the next thing you're going to say is deregulate completely and let the workers bust their asses as hard as they can to earn the favor of those who own because THAT'S freedom. Right, Deviant? I think your definition of "freedom" is knowing that you gained the favor of some owner through your hard work. Deviant, I think Malcom X and Richard Wright would like to have a word with you. Go have a seat over there.

It doesn't matter what system you live in, whether it's communism, capitalism, or any other -ism, life requires working to earn your fare share. I would rather live in a free society where I get to choose where I work and what I own than to have the government dictating it to me. The more people depend on their government for their well-being, the less freedoms they have. You can choose to be blind to that all you want to, you're only screwing yourself in the end.

We get it. We all agreed with you on this very salient point... but then we left our trapper keepers behind and joined the real world.

And no one has answered my original question: When everyone is on welfare, who pays the check?

Alan answered this question. Welfare is not a slippery slope. If it were, we'd be able to conclude that welfare for the poor is what caused the economic collapses. You are right about one thing. If NO ONE works, then nothing would actually get done. But this is a catastrophic situation that I'd dare say is absolutely inhuman. Your situation would in fact galvanize the proletariat to re appropriate property and wealth to such a way that all had access to being productive without really having to... you know, work more instead of having time to be with the people they care about. Maybe... you should put the John Wayne shit down for a second and pick up some Erich Fromm. I'd propose you read "The Art of Loving". He actually goes into detail in a roundabout way as to why your sentiments are those of alienation and why that's actually systemic more than anything else. Protip: His language is that of an anthropological view, so a lot of his stuff is presented in such a way that defines a Western audience and not exactly YOU in particular. You're going to love the bit where he mentions that homosexuals are broken because they lack the access requires socially to express their love.