[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Saya

Its not right to say you know what its like to be rraped because you communicated with a rrape victim.

That's not what I said.

Its not right to say you kjnow what its like to be racially discriminated against if you're white in a white supremist society, because someone communicated an experience of racism to you.

That's also not what I said.

Its not right to say you know what its like to be a woman because I've communicated a few instances to you.

3 for 3. You missed my point.

We can communicate! I never said we couldn't. However, the totality of experiences and emotions cannot often be articulated

I would argue that the totality of experiences and emotions can never be articulated. By anyone to anyone else. No matter what their race or gender is.

It cannot be reduced to a math equation. Not everything can be reduced to an objective science, especially when it comes to experiences.

Certainly, but the point is that the things which cannot are unintelligible and incommunicable (at least not reliably) and thus are irrelevant to everyone but the person experiencing them.

We cannot prove that we aren't in the Matrix, so it's useless to try to claim that we are.

We cannot prove nor that white people are especially incapable of understanding the experience of a person of color, when compared to any other race claiming they understand an experience that someone else went through.

A rrape victim deals with trauma and shame. Objectively, intellectually, we know that. But we don't know how exactly they feel or how it affects them, especially since everyone deals with it differently. I know people who were assaulted who get along fine now and I know people who were assaulted years ago and still have panic attacks thinking about it. Its not possible to grapple what its like. Its not science because its not repeatable, its individual and personal.

Likewise, not all PoC deal with racism the same way or see it the same way. My grandmother dealt with it by accepting assimilation, and now passes as a very racist white woman. Others very much defend their ethnic identity and resist. There's a whole lot of people in between. I felt like a jackass after I realized FistsOfFury wasn't white because I had no right to tell him how to feel and think about racism.

But racism is something you are more educated on. You haven't experienced it the same way, and it's certainly impolite to do what you did, given his ethnic status, but that doesn't mean you were wrong in what you told him.

I can talk to Versus quite well about feminism because he's open to it and for the most part he understands what I say. He still has blindspots and he doesn't "get" the totality of it. I don't expect him to, and I like that he is respectful and defers to my experience when I tell him something. He never asks me to prove or write an essay on why elevators are scary. Likewise no matter how much we talk and communicate I'm not going to totally understand what its like to be a black man. I'm never going to come close to understanding what its like to be in combat, no matter what he's able to tell me. I'm always going to see his experiences differently than he does, as an outsider with my own biases and prejudices, but also as someone who has never had to deal with it and has no experience.

I can easily imagine why elevators are scary. Granted I don't think about it because they aren't scary TO ME because I'm a huge guy. What I can say is that I've been subject to unwanted sexual advances from other men in the past (due to my long hair) so it's easy to see why you would be uncomfortable in that situation.

Am I as afraid of elevators as you? No. Have I had the exact same experience, no. But to claim I can't understand is inappropriate.

Having the exact same experience is not a requirement for understanding something if it was no one would understand anything because no one has exactly the same experience. As I've said, once you go down the path of unknowability you abandon all relevance to everyone but yourself.

Experiences aren't math, its not science. Its not repeatable, there are no controls. When people disclose their assaults to me, they trust me not to use them for my own gain. They trust me, and in return I always give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't ask them to prove shit about their experiences and feelings. I would be thrown out on my ass so fast if I ever did. We take statistical information from them at is anonymous to prove the centre is needed and here's how many people have reported sexual assault this year, let's put that against how many were reported to the police, and we figure out 1 out of 20 are reported. In those statistics though there's no trauma or emotion or experience, its jut a report on how often it happens, the mechanics of it. It sure as shit doesn't get people listening or stop joking or interrupting or justifying their behavior. Even if you spill out personal experiences, they're likely to defend their privilege and discount it out of hand.

Therapy is not the same situation as confrontation. No one would ask someone to prove their traumatic experience happened, because that isn't the goal of such interactions.

Discussions, arguments, and trials are different.

There's also the problem when allies take our experiences for their own agendas. This case has everything feminists and atheists hate? Nope, not enough evil Muslims. Not enough Others. Feminists are just as guilty, white feminists take the experiences of women of colour to use against men of colour. We don't care how the women of colour feel about men. All men oppress women, right? We don't care that men of colour disproportionately just can't get away with oppressing us even if they try. Male privilege doesn't exist between white women and men of colour. Atheists likewise are particularly bad for colonialist feminism and only caring when they can use it as leverage against the church. Its not objective, it feeds a bias and a basic assumption about how the world works that isn't actually true.

You're making alot of assumptions here and painting with a very broad brush.

I'm sorry, but this doesn't do much to prove that it's useful to claim that whites can't understand the position that people of color are in. It falls apart because of among other things it's unknowability.