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Old 05-03-2012, 10:27 AM   #136
Despanan
 
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sugar Hill
Posts: 3,887
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Originally Posted by Solumina View Post
On a more serious note how exactly is that dismissive, I'm explaining how I'm perceiving your behavior in a pretty direct way. You have taken pages and pages to finally say this:Up to this point you have been speaking as though it is only a few bad apples fucking shit up
No I haven't, I'm saying the problem isn't as bad as you think it is. Just because YOU got talked over at Occupy Norfolk, and Saya got talked over at Occupy Newfoundland doesn't mean that the global idea of Occupy is helplessly racist and sexist, nor does it mean that the racism and sexism that Occupy is dealing with is a product OF Occupy. It's NOT it's a product of the culture that Occupy is trying to change and you are attacking folks who are trying to do something about it because it's not perfect. That's WRONG.

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when clearly it isn't, and even this statement does not go nearly far enough. It is not just about people not recognizing their privilege but it is also about open and overt discrimination. Also please tell me exactly what steps have been taken to actively deal with this, not passive stuff so that people will hopefully understand that it is wrong, I want to be safe and I want to be respected so I want measures in place so that something is done if someone disrespects me or makes me unsafe.
You aren't reading my posts. We have Safer Spaces, we have de-escalation, we have facilitators who are trained to deal with this stuff. What else do you want? You want me to personally beat up the next guy who talks over you at Occupy Norfolk?

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Really, they may just be doing it wrong? That is such a fucking cop out
I don't know about occupy Norfolk. I am not involved with Occupy Norfolk. I can't comment on their processes. I'm acknowledging that their may be something to your criticism but all I have to go on is your word based upon your limited experience. Until you bring more to the table than "People talked over me but not Jake two times" I can't say more than this.

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Do you really think that Occupy is the only political movement with a lateral culture? It isn't and you need to stop using that as an excuse, the LGBT community here actually switched away from their hierarchy to a lateral community as a way to combat the internal problems that it was having such as discrimination against its trans and bi members, and it pretty much put a stop to those issues as it put everyone on an equal playing field.
Please provide evidence for this, because I would LOVE to learn about Queer anarchism, I wasn't aware it existed.

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My experience with Occupy is not an equal playing field but majority rules and a herd mentality where people who do feel that something is wrong feel pressured into not placing constraints on fellow occupiers so this shit goes pretty damn unchecked.
The Norfolk GA does not operate by consensus?

Also: Stop applying this critique to "Occupy" Occupy Norfolk is clearly different from Occupy Wall Street.

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Funny you should say that, everyone seems to make that remark but the rednecks listened, the liberal arts majors didn't.
Wait. I though no one listened. Now you're saying that some folks did listen? What were you even trying to say and how were you trying to say it?

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Occupy isn't the only game in town and I would much rather spend my time working with other groups and getting shit done than sink loads of time and energy trying to get Occupiers to listen to my concerns.
Sure. By all means. Give up on the revolution and go volunteer at Moveon.org to get Obama re-elected. I'm sure that will bring change. I mean, he SAID it would bring change.

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What exactly is being taught and who is being taught? Are these things that are reaching every person or are they more or less preaching to the choir?
How are they trained and how exactly do they deal with it?
See #1, also are they lecturing about discrimination in general or about specific incidents?
Look, you're on the internet, there is a TON of Occupy stuff on here, just look up the livestreams yourself. You very clearly already have your mind made up, about the lack of merit in a global movement for social justice because some liberal arts students got mad at you.

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They are mostly writing about how despite a few unpleasant events Occupy is really totally inclusive, at best they admit that there is a problem with people not recognizing their own privilege.
Occupy IS extremely inclusive. I've been telling you that this whole time. I've been bringing link after link of evidence and you refuse to consider it. You refuse to consider testimony that doesn't 100% mirror your own view that Occupy is something women and people of color should not be involved in.

Stop it. It's frustrating.

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Fuck that no they haven't besides how the media portrays something or what they choose to investigate can't be claimed as something that Occupy has done.
It can certainly be claimed that occupy is aware of these things 100 times over.

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Spell out for me precisely how your process addresses the problem because from what I see it only gives the illusion of addressing it.
Watch the video I linked earlier on consensus.

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You may see a lot of "exactly"s and such, because I want specifics, you keep talking in fairly general terms, which is great for a press release but in this situation speaking in general terms is less than helpful. If you want me to feel like Occupy takes our concerns seriously I want to fully know and understand what is being done about them. Also if I know what, specifically, is being done and I don't feel that it is enough then I can make suggestions and point out exactly how and why I think more needs to be done
Because I'm not so naive that I think assurances of things being done means that they are actually being done, and if they are that they will be the least bit effective.
You're going to have to help me out here. I've shown you the video, I've shown you the pictures, I've shown you the transcripts from our meetings, I've shown you articles written by occupiers ON how they dealt with White Privilege, I've shown how we've re-written our FOUNDING DOCUMENTS because of these concerns, I've shown you how we have made effort after effort to be inclusive. I've shown you when minority groups come out their voices are heeded and even written into actual policy. I've show you how we've worked hand in hand with minority activists. I've shown you how we've altered our plans for mayday because of the concerns of immigrants. I've shown you how we've altered our language, how we've embraced the idea of decolonization, how we've taken up causes that do not effect white men, put money behind them, and been arrested because of them. I have shown you the working groups which have been created to deal with these problems.

Please tell me plainly what you need to see, in order to believe that Occupy is worthy. What is your burden of proof here? Saya wouldn't answert me, and Versus admitted that there was nothing I could do or say to prove otherwise, so what exactly am I supposed to do?

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Desp you as an individual have continually been dismissive of our concerns, blamed us for the problems we have faced, and have made excuses for Occupy and you are someone I know to be compassionate, intelligent, and an all around great guy so if you are still acting this way how the hell can I be expected to think that Occupy will welcome me?
IHaveNotAndITakeOffenseToThis. You, Solomina are making unreasonable demands on me, Ignoring the information that I have brought, and reading things into my posts which are not there. I have said multiple times that I am not denying your facts. I have never denied that there is a problem, I have just provided perspective and information on how the movement functions and what it's doing.

You and Saya have dismissed everything I have brought. You haven't even considered the fact that you might be wrong, nor has either of you admitted that you have limited direct knowledge as to what goes on at Occupy.

Just because I'm not throwing the biggest movement for social justice in forty years under a bus does not mean that I am dismissing your concerns.
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