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Old 04-30-2012, 10:53 AM   #6
Despanan
 
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sugar Hill
Posts: 3,887
Now Saya, I really should be ignoring you because you're not a person of Color, this is a response to Versus, remember?

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Originally Posted by Saya View Post
OMG dude, seriously? "I'm not disputing your facts, although it is a media conspiracy and probably made up and exaggerated (because most rapes are made up, amirite)", is that really all you got?
I've got seven pages here full of links. I spent a couple of hours working on this, if you think that's what I'm saying then you either don't intend to actually discuss this, or you're incapable of looking at this issue objectively.

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Story time. Did you know feminism spawned out of the abolitionist movement? They fought to end slavery. But first wave feminism was very largely racist, and included women who supported eugenics, who argued that white men were treating them like "negroes", and even women who fought to be allowed to join the KKK.
Interesting.

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With movements now, most people are in theory against racism. They can fight laws and policies but not their own privilege. And basically what you're saying is, you'll fight the law, but not racists.
No, that's not what I'm saying.

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You'll call the government out on it's bullshit, but not other people in Occupy.
I routinely call other people out in Occupy. I said as much in the OP.

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How can you call yourself an ally if you think racists in Occupy have the right to chase out aboriginal drummers and never hold them responsible for it?
1) I don't think they have the right to chase out Aboriginal Drummers, why would you think I felt this way?

2) I DO hold them responsible for it. THEM. I don't hold "Occupy" responsible for it because "Occupy" INCLUDES those same abortiginal drummers.

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That security has the right to tell victims of sexual assault that the perpetrator has more of a right to be there than they do, and they're causing division? Do you really wonder why so many different groups view you as sexist and racist?
1) I never said anything of the sort. You seem to be intent on arguing with other people through me. Stop it. I'm not the guy you couldn't speak over. I'm not one of the men you've banned from your feminist meetings (well, actually I guess I technically AM by virtue of my dangly bits, but not directly anyhow).

I am NOT one of the men who calls you sweety (though I may be NOW because I know it pisses you off) and talks over you. I fuck with you because I respect you. I respond to you, I make sure your voice is heard and I am as brutal towards you as I would be towards any man.

I will hold your feet to the fire for the same reason I hope you hold mine, because that's the only way either of us will get better.

I don't appreciate you projecting your problems with other people onto me. That's dismissive, disrespectful, and stupid.

2) I don't wonder. I actually explained a huge reason why these perceptions exist.

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Its tokenism because that's how you're treating it. Its the "I have a black friend so I can't be racist" excuse. You'll listen, and some may feel they're having success, but obviously its not totally getting through. I've been to a workshop led by First Nations people and they said they felt they got through, THE VERY NEXT DAY WITH THE SAME GROUP WHO WAS THERE
So, you have made the claim that not just myself, but Occupy is racist and sexist. What sort of evidence would you accept to disprove this claim? I mean I've already brought evidence that minority issues are represented, minority voices are heard, and that this is reflected in our offical policy.

What else can I do? Is it by virtue of the accusation alone that the entire movement is guilty of racism and sexism?

Where is your burden of proof Saya? Because you seem more than willing to dismiss any evidence to the contrary no matter what it is.

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white people were totally dominating a discussion on racism and colonialism, making it about Quebec liberation, and women of colour understandably stormed out and never came back. It doesn't matter than I personally am not racist, it doesn't matter that most white people there weren't racist. That was allowed to happen, no one was held accountable, and nothing productive got done in the end. Obviously I still believe in feminism, I'm not saying you should quit Occupy, but you have got to accept why people don't want to associate with you when you're unwilling to hold people like that accountable.
I don't understand why you think I'm unwilling to hold people accountable. I do hold people accountable.

What I don't do is contribute to the anti-revolutionary media narrative that uses these problems as ammunition in an ad-hominem attack on Occupy itself.
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