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Old 05-01-2012, 01:50 PM   #23
Saya
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,548
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Originally Posted by AshleyO View Post
So I want to make sure I've got this stuff straight. Firstly, I don't go to any of the protests. I'm actually quite ignorant as to what goes on in Occupy.

You see... I tell my friends that the fastest way to silence Occupy is to increase taxes on the rich, socialize medicine, education, and perhaps even bring in new laws about student loans that lessens the burden on those in debt. If we were to do this, Occupy would act as if they accomplished the revolution. Sure... things in America would change for almost everyone while perhaps the world remains unchanged.

And it leaves me thinking about what it means to live in a communist or anarchist society with the old prejudices and the racial/gender/orientation/religious privileges in place. So what I'm thinking is what does it mean when the economic and worker control problems are solved but nothing else is? What kind of world would that be?
I feel like I'm telling everyone this, but I totally recommend reading The Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin. The anarchist society there doesn't really have sexism or racism (its an alien race, I assume there's little difference between them?), but the problem in the book is that they've had anarchy for over 150 years, the generation doesn't really know how to spot oppression anymore and bureaucracy and the tyranny of the majority has snuck up on them.

If it were to happen here, I could imagine it easily. Equal in theory but not practice, I've been told (can't say there's a strong anarchist presense here so no first hand knowledge) that feminists have problems in anarchist groups due to being stuck with "women's work," in the kitchen. And to echo what Cuckoo said I've heard "after the revolution comes we'll worry about sexism" and variations of before. If revolution is to happen as is, I could easily see other forms of oppression still existing. Economic oppression might be harder to get away with, of course, but that's about it.

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Frankly, I don't think Saya or Versus or really anyone who suffers at the machinations of white male privilege wants Occupy to go away. It is a powder keg of real change if one can start getting those who enjoy privileges to recognize where they come from in life. It has to do it correctly.
You're right, and we're skeptical that what you said in your first paragraph won't happen (or even enough changes will be made to kept those in Occupy happy and they'll just stop, or they'll just get tired and stop.) There's a historical precedence, you know? No one gave two shits when it was black kids being terrorized by the police, but when it happens to white students with Occupy everyone freaks out. So the problem is twofold, where the fuck were they? Why are they so late to the issues? And the other, are they going to screw everyone else over once again?

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I remember when I read about Orwell's account of Anarchist Catalonia. An anarchist society, people! And there were moments and scenes where something seemed oddly sexist and there were some times where Orwell was treated differently in Spain because he was from somewhere else.

I think the point is; there are systems that people want. Occupy is pretty red as far as wanting to be socialist and one can commend Occupy for that. But then what of the culture?

Am I on to this, guys? Do I get it or am I still missing the mark?
I'm not convinced Occupy is red. A good chunk say they aren't going to vote and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that they're of the opinion that voting is too reformist, but there's a lot of Ron Paul supporters, who's racist and misogynistic and wants to take away civil rights and reproductive rights, and he isn't the only anti-war candidate, there's third party and independents who aren't racist sexist capitalist fuckheads. I can't take a Ron Paul supporter as actually red and behind us when it comes to racism and sexism. In no way is his isolationism an excuse, and according to the first survey I linked to, 11% support the Socialist party and 11% support the Green party, so its not like they've never heard of alternatives.

I don't think Occupy is decidely radical and revolutionary, and would be happy with reform.

I'd love to see a statistic on how
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