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Old 05-03-2012, 09:29 AM   #132
Despanan
 
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sugar Hill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Versus View Post
No worries. I take so long because I can't read so good and am a little slow, so I appreciate your patience.

For ease of understanding, I want to differentiate occupant, OWS, and Occupy as terms that mean different things so there is less confusion in this thread.

Occupy: The global movement as a whole.

General Assemblies: Individual camps within the Occupy movement, such as OWS or Occupy Oakland.

OWS: A part of the Occupy movement based in NYC. I can't make the judgement if it is interchangeable with the NYC general assembly.

Occupant: A member of the global movement. A distinction should be made to associate them with any subdivision thereof, such as "Occupant of OWS."
The term is Occupier. But otherwise, this is good.

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This is a good point that I already brought up earlier, but you got distracted about the word "concensus." I was trying to say that when occupants of GAs do not adhere to the principals of the GA or it's mission statement or general intent, The GA IS responsible for it as the parent movement which the occupants belong. I'm am not implying that the existence of a hierarchy should be considered to control the occupants actions, but it DOES illiminate the need for accountability in some form or another, such as DIALOGUE within the GA to better communicate it's intent and address the actions of its occupants. That doesn't change if you look at Occupy as a whole. There should be accountability of Occupy Norfolk, and a dialogue should be created to express the concerns that GAs have within one another because ANYTHING less is ignoring a problem within the movement.
Well I agree with this, though "Should" is a dangerous word. It's one thing to say their "Should" be accountability that doesn't create hierarchy it's another thing to actually practice this.

How percisely is the NYCGA supposed to bring the Norfolk GA in line so that Solumina gets to speak more often without Jake helping her out? Occupy Norfolk is accountable to the Occupy Norfolk GA.

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And this is why there isn't representation or progress within the movement as a whole, or at the very least, why it is percieved that way. "We have nothing to do with them" is the same as "I have nothing to do with him." You don't see a problem with this? Again, it's not the responsibility of would-be supporters to ignore the problems within the movement as it does of itself, it is the responsibility of the movement to change itself in a meaningful way to foster a environment that occupants can contribute.
Once again, I agree in theory, in practice this is harder.

Let's say that the NYCGA takes "responsibility" for the actions of 3 occupiers at the Danny Cheng martch and issues an apology. Well guess what? Now the republicans, the democrats and the NYPD have just been handed a MAJOR weapon. All they have to do is just start sending out plainclothes police officers and/or right-wing activists to other left wing marches, and have them identify themselves as occupiers, after all, who is the GA to say that they aren't?

Then they tear shit up, act like Jackasses, and suddenly the NYCGA is responsible for their actions. Every single time they do this the NYCGA will have to apologize, for actions that it has nothing to do with, but folks like you and Saya will just see a string of apologies and say to yourselves "Wow, Occupy is REALLY racist. I'll never get involved in that movement" and the whole thing will NEVER have the chance to grow.

Occupy COULD decide to start keeping a very strict record of it's members, and declaring official "occupations" and forcing new occupations to apply for a charter with the NYCGA...but once again, in doing so, we've just abandoned the core of what Occupy is about. The whole point is to get autonomous groups of folks to get up off the couch and become active in their own communities. The whole point is to get as many people as possible to be the change that they want to see.

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Again, you are camps within the same movement. If you don't agree with another GA, it's the others' place to bring it up, JUST LIKE it's the responsibility of occupants of OWS to create dialogue about their concerns within OWS's GA. Isn't that how it works?
I would actually say that the GA isn't the place to do this. It might happen if something REALLY serious happened (like for instance if a GA was taken over by Neo-Nazis or something) but overall, communication like that would (and does) take place in places like http://interoccupy.org/ and that website just launched.

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What's wrong when you separate these two statements?
You tell me.
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At this point, from what you have shown me, I can't deny that OWS is on its way, overall. It's nowhere it needs to be, not by a fucking long shot, but I feel that the fundamental process as I understand it is really great. I have major, major criticisms of it, and some things really disgust me, such as the articles you posted about individual response to million hoodie and Danny Cheng as well as that there wasn't dialogue within the GA (especially if it's the reason you suspect), but I am excited that something is being spoken about, even if it's really small right now. I want it to become larger, and I want people to talk about things that they are uncomfortable with. I want more disgusting articles because it creates the opportunity for it to be corrected, and maybe even understood.
You know, I brought your concerns to a friend of mine who's really big in Occupy, and also happens to be a person of color.

He had this to say: "Yes, there are big problems with folks not understanding privilege, it's probably the biggest internal problem in the movement, but Occupy is still one of the biggest, best forces for change I have ever seen in my entire life. The reason is, that when you say: "Hey, you guys have a serious problem because you don't understand this" They say "Then come and teach us." They say that every single time, and they make good on it."


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I am also really pessimistic. That fundamental process, as I understand it, is largely absent from the movement as a whole and how it interacts with itself, and that absence trickles down to places like Occupy Norfolk. Where ever the fuck that is. I think that you are taking what you see in OWS and painting the rest of the movement like it.
1) You were trained to be pessimistic. So was I. We both need to work to overcome it.

2) Why do you understand that this is absent from the movement? You haven't been to the GAs, you only have Saya's and Solumina's word to go on. Neither have been particularly involved in the movement. Granted this is because they apparently got disrespected by a few people when they did come out (Which sucks) but neither is really educated enough about the movement to say that for instance, Occupy Denver doesn't follow process.

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New question: Why would Occupy, as a global movement, be making any progress if what you think is helping OWS is not present in other GAs?
I've been to the Occupy DC GA, I've heard good things out of other GAs. It's not that these things aren't present (necessarily), it's that this is a PROCESS. We are changing a culture of people which have been entrenched in racism, sexism, classism and consumerism. People who have been indoctrinated since birth to believe that racism is only overt hate for other races. People who have been indoctrinated to believe that capitalism is a totalitarian solution.

It's unreasonable to demand that everyone completely change overnight, and it's unreasonable to refuse to work with someone who's well-meaning but still clueless.

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TL;DR Please fix your shit for me.
I'm trying my best but I can't do it without you.
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