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Old 05-07-2012, 10:40 PM   #1
AshleyO
 
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Okay. Which passage is actually true and which is a lie?

Which is actually true:

Matthew 27: 1-10 or Acts 1: 18-19

They both can't be right.
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:46 PM   #2
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Quote them.
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:51 PM   #3
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Matthew 27:1-10: Early in the morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people made their plans how to have Jesus executed. 2 So they bound him, led him away and handed him over to Pilate the governor. 3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4 “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.” “What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.” 5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. 6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.” 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”

*****

Acts 1: 18-19 says: (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:53 PM   #4
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The problem is that in one hand, Judas commits suicide and then in the other, he has an accident.

In one story, the priests use the money to buy a field.

In the other story, it is Judas (who is supposed to be dead from hanging) who buys a field and spontaneously eviscerates.
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:57 PM   #5
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Acts is one of those books who's accuracy was criticized by historically criticfal theologians like von Harnack, but from what I understand Acts is older than Matthew.
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:00 PM   #6
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Uh-huh. You're edging on the problem, Saya.

If Acts has problems, then exactly what CAN you trust from that book? You know. Just sayin'.
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:04 PM   #7
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This just in: bible not entirely self consistent, perhaps not even factual.
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:07 PM   #8
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Oh Jeez, Ashley, you're right, almost became a Christian there.
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:10 PM   #9
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I know the bible isn't reliable. The reason why I brought this all up is because it's useful ammunition in a discussion for later. It is interesting.
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:17 PM   #10
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von Harnack might know.
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:22 PM   #11
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But see, the Christians you speak with will come up with something like " Judas hung himself but the body rotted and THEN fell headlong and the intestines fell out. And, seeing as it was his money that bought the field, he basically did buy it, because he completed the work the money was paid for, even if he was remorseful afterwards and tried to give it back."

Just sayin'. There's always an explanation when you are dealing with a text full of contradiction and different, incomplete perspectives, that has gone through multiple translations and about 2k years dealing with gospel written third hand in the first place. ANY story would have multiple tellings with differing details put through all of that. Add in that the people who believe it implicitly are LOOKING for every item that could support their perspective and happily discard anything that looks as though it would interfere, and you have an uphill battle.

Realize when you get into discussions with Christians that you are dealing with a brainwashed mindset that, in most cases, has been instilled since birth. I wish you the best of luck.
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:27 PM   #12
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That'd be a good question for a Christian. I'd be interested to hear someone's response to that, who's familiar with the book.
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:34 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by emeraldlonewoulf View Post
But see, the Christians you speak with will come up with something like " Judas hung himself but the body rotted and THEN fell headlong and the intestines fell out. And, seeing as it was his money that bought the field, he basically did buy it, because he completed the work the money was paid for, even if he was remorseful afterwards and tried to give it back."
Oh I fully expect that kind of explanation. However, that's more hearsay than even the bible is. That is just flat out making shit up. It even makes sense. But it's not up to the apologist to fill in the gaps because they technically can't because their explanation would be just as relevant as mine and both equally true. I could insist that the angel of death decided to drag his corpse back into the temple, and his dead body took the silver and bought the field. It's just as likely as talking snakes, magic apples, virgin births, and talking burning bushes. It's just as weird.

We could even say that the priests indeed bought the field with Judas's money so he bought it by proxy. But you see, that's silly. If I'm dead and one takes my money and buys a car with it. It's not like I was responsible for making the purchase.

Quote:
Just sayin'. There's always an explanation when you are dealing with a text full of contradiction and different, incomplete perspectives, that has gone through multiple translations and about 2k years dealing with gospel written third hand in the first place. ANY story would have multiple tellings with differing details put through all of that. Add in that the people who believe it implicitly are LOOKING for every item that could support their perspective and happily discard anything that looks as though it would interfere, and you have an uphill battle.

Realize when you get into discussions with Christians that you are dealing with a brainwashed mindset that, in most cases, has been instilled since birth. I wish you the best of luck.
Nah, I get you with that. I rarely argue with them, so I kind of go after the authoritative source material quite a bit. I understand the bible has a lot of problems. But it's not enough to say that, it has to be shown. If you can show it, it makes it harder to believe. Then again, some people are crazy.
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:50 PM   #14
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Oh I fully expect that kind of explanation. However, that's more hearsay than even the bible is. That is just flat out making shit up. It even makes sense. But it's not up to the apologist to fill in the gaps because they technically can't because their explanation would be just as relevant as mine and both equally true. I could insist that the angel of death decided to drag his corpse back into the temple, and his dead body took the silver and bought the field. It's just as likely as talking snakes, magic apples, virgin births, and talking burning bushes. It's just as weird.

We could even say that the priests indeed bought the field with Judas's money so he bought it by proxy. But you see, that's silly. If I'm dead and one takes my money and buys a car with it. It's not like I was responsible for making the purchase.

Nah, I get you with that. I rarely argue with them, so I kind of go after the authoritative source material quite a bit. I understand the bible has a lot of problems. But it's not enough to say that, it has to be shown. If you can show it, it makes it harder to believe. Then again, some people are crazy.
I think the best way to interpret the bible is as a non sequitur. Not necessarily out of retardation on the author's parts, but yes, the butchering adaptations and alterations that are made over time... basically what emeraldlonewoulf said.

However, I'm not convinced the parables were ever meant to be taken literally anyway. There's blatant symbolism in all of its stories. It was written from a symbolic perspective. The problem is when people begin believing it as literal TRUTH...

It's like telling the story of, idk, the ugly duckling or something. Yeah there's possible truth in the moral... but if people went around proclaiming these ducks existed, and everyone needed to believe it :) Well they're missing the point entirely
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:11 AM   #15
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Saya, you're the one studying religions. Does the argument that the Bible is supposed to be allegorical hold any water? Didn't they just literally believe this shit back then?
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:18 AM   #16
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I dunno, reading things like Leviticus seems to be taken pretty damn literal. It pretty much says, " look bitch, do this or die and burn in hell." I'm not seeing the symbolism in that.
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Old 05-08-2012, 09:40 AM   #17
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Saya, you're the one studying religions. Does the argument that the Bible is supposed to be allegorical hold any water? Didn't they just literally believe this shit back then?
Who? Back when?

I'm way more familiar with the Old Testament so bear with me, but the Old Testament comes from multiple sources. This is a really simplistic way of putting it, but the kingdom of Israel after Solomon was actually two kingdoms, Northern Israel and Judah in the south. The texts from the north are Elohimist, and they write about God in poetic ways with metaphor, so to an Elohimist, yeah, it was often allegorical. The accounts from Judah tended to be more literal. And THEN you got sources like the priestly accounts and Deuteronomy which no shit someone just found in a temple and thought it would be a great idea to add it.

You also got a lot of things like Judges 19. Its a horrible story but its supposed to be a horrible story and set up the reasoning of why Israel needed a king. Its truth isn't so important but the point was that before there was kings, there really was no law and everyone was horrible to each other. But then you got the incompetence of Saul and the sinful natures of David, Solomon and Ahab to show how having kings was a dumb idea, showing that the different authors of the text had different political ideas.

As for the New Testament, overall no, early Christians were much more diverse and disagreed on a lot of shit, and it was the establishment of the Catholic Church than enforced orthodoxy and literalism.

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I dunno, reading things like Leviticus seems to be taken pretty damn literal. It pretty much says, " look bitch, do this or die and burn in hell." I'm not seeing the symbolism in that.
Nitpick, but Leviticus doesn't mention hell. Leviticus is the laws given to the Levites, who were the priestly tribe. Its funny for Christians to take it literally when most Jews no longer do on the basis that there is no priestly kingdom anymore and that's what it was for, and Christians do not accept the authority of Levite Jews anyway.
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:16 AM   #18
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Rereading it, yeah it just says things are abominations and such. But, I find it ironic that it is greatly ignored by Christians until it serves their purpose, and they use those passages against people.
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Old 05-08-2012, 07:02 PM   #19
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Rereading it, yeah it just says things are abominations and such. But, I find it ironic that it is greatly ignored by Christians until it serves their purpose, and they use those passages against people.
Oh yeah, its really super dumb, according to Paul and arguably Jesus the old laws and punishments don't hold, except apparently that one?

I'm also not really sure about how things were when Leviticus was being written, but a lot of modern theologians point out that in the New Testament there is no Greek word for "homosexuality", and consensual sex between two adult men was illegal in Rome. What was legal was pederasty and the rrape of slaves two freeborn men couldn't have sex without serious consequences, except for Emperors like Nero. So its probable that Paul was speaking out against the rrape of children and slaves and not explicitly two consensual adults free of exploitation. Lesbian sex was ignored (and not mentioned in the Bible), partly because by Greek and Roman standards, sex is something a man did to someone, but its also possible it was ignored because it lacked the tradition of rrape and exploitation.
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:36 PM   #20
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Regarding how literally or allegorically the Bible is to be taken, I can only call on my own experience. In the Episcopalian church, teaching was more allegorical. In the Southern Baptist faith, it was taken FAR more literally, except for parables that were "meant" to be taken as a lesson rather than a factual report.

We switched when my mother re-married. Strangely enough, Sunday school wasn't that different. I had a LOT of early training to overcome. It isn't easy, but it's awesome once you get a chance to look at reality.
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question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormtrooper of Death
(shouts) WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG??!!?
answer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beneath the Shadows
Because some people are dicks. And not everyone else is gay.
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