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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 03-28-2006, 11:57 AM   #26
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Lord, I think it was extremely wise of you not to join the protest. . I hope you're friends are going to be alright. You just have to know that you've made the right decision by not going there and just keep your hopes up. After ever storm comes a rainbow. Don't worry, I'll pray for them. * hugs*
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Old 03-28-2006, 12:13 PM   #27
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Thanks...
I just saw some students on the news, and they weren't seeming to do a good job at all. They were swimming in Dallas City Hall!! Then they were just praising Mexico, and they didn't make any statement at all that had to do with the actual ordeal at issue.
Some of the students were brought back to school into the conference center and there is a HUGE circle of teachers guarding them. It was all a lot more trouble than it was worth.
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Old 03-28-2006, 05:00 PM   #28
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i suspect no one here has an issue with LEGAL immigration.

the issue here, today deals with ILLEGAL aliens.

ILLEGAL.

there's no wiggle room there to discuss.

ILLEGAL aliens broke the law.

LEGAL immigrants followed the rules.

lord dagon - for the first time since you joined, i both agreed with and enjoyed the words you wrote on this thread. thank you for your honesty.

to everyone who jumped on 4mytribe's back, i'm confused. are you all saying that we, american citizens, should simply lay down, surrender our country and forfeit our laws to ILLEGAL aliens - just because they demand it?

this isn't a prediction of what's to come. these protests / riots are going on now. right now.

is it ok for ILLEGAL aliens to mandate how our country will treat them? if you think it is, i don't know what to say to you other than in my opinion - you've laid down and given up your own rights as americans. you've allowed people from outside the country to tell you how you're going to live.

and that you would both argue for them to sidestep our laws as well as attack a citizen who voiced concern about this... that's both frightening to me as well as unsettling concerning where this country is headed.
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Old 03-28-2006, 05:03 PM   #29
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e_e, check the Prussian Blue thread to see what a bigot tribe is.
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Old 03-29-2006, 02:42 AM   #30
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America, founded by boatloads of ILLEGALS.

But note ILLEGALS DO PAY TAXES. Maybe not as much as everyone else, but they pay their share.

I mean, in America, you are taxes 3 to 4 times on the same money you make.

First, money is deducted from yer check before you get it for social security and what not.

Second, when you put yer money in the bank, at the end of the year you are taxed on the interested made

Third, if you buy something with the money you are once again taxed

Fourth, if you buy something big enough you have to pay another tax every year for owning this item (i.e. car/boat/etc)

So lets look at illegals (or anyone else who gets paid 'under the table')

First, they don't pay into social security, but they aren't eligible for it anyway so no one paying in is losing out.

Second, everyone pays tax when they purchase things. If an illegal buys a McWhopper, he's paying the same tax Joe Soap pays for the same items.

Third, without proper paperwork, illegals don't have bank accounts. Therefore, they don't make interest and once again the tax on this money is not costing anyone anything

Fourth, if they buy a car they have to get their tags and tax or they will get pulled by police and fined. It's hard to run a car around towne with illegal tax stickers and tags. But if you look at the national stats no this (or watch COPS) I'm sure you will find the majority of people trying to beat this tax aer Americans, as illegals try NOT to get caught so driving around in illlegal vehicles is something they avoid.

So the whole illegals 'leeching' off the system argument is pretty weak. I mean, right now 1/3rd of the US economy goes to defence spending, which right now all goes to Iraq. I think its safe to say Iraqis are getting more money per person from the US government than any Mexicans, Cubans, or other immigrant group currently living in the states.

But yet people still attack the immigrants at home, usually without any merit.
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Old 03-29-2006, 05:28 AM   #31
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Cpt, thank you for saying that.
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Old 03-29-2006, 06:31 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn
America, founded by boatloads of ILLEGALS.
america was founded by immigrants before there was a defined country. they weren't 'illegal'. there was no set of laws for them to break.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captsternn
But note ILLEGALS DO PAY TAXES. Maybe not as much as everyone else, but they pay their share.
the dollar amount taxpaying citizens have to shell out to support illegal aliens far, far outweigh whatever paltry amount illegal aliens pay in taxes. this is a faulty argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captsternn
I mean, in America, you are taxes 3 to 4 times on the same money you make.
this is true and in states where illegal aliens reside, massachusetts being one of them, the support services illegal aliens continue to receive for free are often cited as reasons for taxes to continue rising, namely - healthcare, schooling for non-english speaking illegal aliens, housing and shelter, law enforcement, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captsternn
First, money is deducted from yer check before you get it for social security and what not.

Second, when you put yer money in the bank, at the end of the year you are taxed on the interested made

Third, if you buy something with the money you are once again taxed

Fourth, if you buy something big enough you have to pay another tax every year for owning this item (i.e. car/boat/etc)
true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captsternn
So lets look at illegals (or anyone else who gets paid 'under the table')

First, they don't pay into social security, but they aren't eligible for it anyway so no one paying in is losing out.

Second, everyone pays tax when they purchase things. If an illegal buys a McWhopper, he's paying the same tax Joe Soap pays for the same items.
ok... so, i guess that makes it even.

not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captsternn
Third, without proper paperwork, illegals don't have bank accounts. Therefore, they don't make interest and once again the tax on this money is not costing anyone anything

Fourth, if they buy a car they have to get their tags and tax or they will get pulled by police and fined. It's hard to run a car around towne with illegal tax stickers and tags. But if you look at the national stats no this (or watch COPS) I'm sure you will find the majority of people trying to beat this tax aer Americans, as illegals try NOT to get caught so driving around in illlegal vehicles is something they avoid.
the vile day laborer gatherings effect more than an ample opportunity to get around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captsternn
So the whole illegals 'leeching' off the system argument is pretty weak. I mean, right now 1/3rd of the US economy goes to defence spending, which right now all goes to Iraq. I think its safe to say Iraqis are getting more money per person from the US government than any Mexicans, Cubans, or other immigrant group currently living in the states.

But yet people still attack the immigrants at home, usually without any merit.
the whole pro-illegal alien argument is pretty weak and not only that, it's insane. what's next? letting prisoners out of jail just because they broke the law? i know there are people in 'the peoples' republic of massachusetts' that'd argue for that.

fuckin' massachusetts. fuckin' illegal aliens. fuckin' cock-sucking issue.

illegals break the law and are granted free money and services that i have to work and pay for. not only that - i have to pay for illegal aliens as well. makes me wanna kick an illegal in the balls, but then they'd probably sign into the hospital and i'd have to foot the bill.

cock suckers. arguing to reward people who break the law. it's like giving a child exactly what he wants because he throws a temper tantrum. why set limits at all?

amazing.
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Old 03-29-2006, 06:48 AM   #33
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I heard on the news that they may legalize all the illegal aliens in the U.S. right now. There is a bill in congress to do that.

It has happened once before in 1982, I think, Reagan did it. They economy flurished and nothing really went wrong.

I mean immigration is one thing that we do very well. Why are we taking a French approach to this? We don't have enough burned cars? What?

Can someone explain this?
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Old 03-29-2006, 07:03 AM   #34
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yes. the amnesty decree was laid down in the past.

it had nothing to do with the economy flourishing.

and more illegals came.

and more illegals continue to come.

and yes, 'they' in washington are considering doing it again because 'they' have no control over the problems facing this country and they mask their incompetence by caving in.

the child gets exactly what it wants, breaking the rules.

and so, more will come... and the temper tantrums in the street will continue...
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Old 03-29-2006, 07:06 AM   #35
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Amnesty... that was the word I was looking for.

What do you think we should do?

Martial law at the border?
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Old 03-29-2006, 07:41 AM   #36
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sure. i don't have a problem with that. posting signs every fifty feet or so alerting illegals that trespassing on our soil will result in two warning shots and then a kill would likely cut down on the number crossing the border. posting full national guard units along the border wuld help to facilitate it.

but that's the extreme and realistically, if we'd bothered to enforce the laws on the books in the first place, a question like that shouldn't have to be asked.

in new hampshire, someone trespassing on your property opens that person to execution by the owner. signs are posted - 'trespassers will be shot'. there's not much difference.

but the bottom line, in my opinion, has to do with what the law of the land establishes within the context of acceptable, social and civil behavior. if we, as a nation, have laws forbidding certain actions - then those laws should be enforced.

if we're not willing to enforce the laws we have, then we should either re-write them or abolish them altogether. having a law and then not enforcing it does nothing in the long run save for encouraging other lawless behavior for what has one learned if one is able to break the law and receive reward, compensation and ultimately - exactly what one wants from society?

people come here from other countries because they want a chance at a better life. fine. there are laws in place to help them faclitate such a plan.

if i rob a bank, i believe it could give me a chance at a better life. does that mean i should be able to ignore the laws in place to achieve my goal?

encouraging lawlessness or disregard for the law will never allow for a comfortable society, especially when we're discussing such a massive melting pot of varied cultures. we, the united states of america, have a duty to ourselves, to our people and to the people who come here legally seeking to improve their way of life. to abandon that on a whim simply because an influx of lawbreakers decides they don't want to play by the rules immediately and effectively starts to erode the very piece of betterment these illegal aliens supposedly came to this country for in the first place - not to mention, it takes away what we, as a country, have to come to rely upon as a stable way of life.

i don't want people from other countries coming here to tell me how my country should be run. i don't want people from other countries coming here to tell me how the laws don't matter for them. i don't want illegal aliens pissing on the america so many lived for and died for, just because they believe themselves to be above the rules.

one of the tenets of the american constitution declares that all men are created equal. how can that be upheld when a group of illegally arrived persons demands that their desires come over and above those of the law-abiding? and what precedent does it set when the president of the united states looks out at the millions of law breakers and says, in effect - "give them what they want"?

that's not leadership. that's cowardice.

thank god our forefathers didn't say that when england sent the redcoats onto our newly acquired land.

so - should we institute martial law? the outcry over that would be massive, or at least the news organizations would likely lead us to believe it is. i don't have a problem with it, though.

it wouldn't be the first thing i'd advocate in order to bring this infestation under control, but i wouldn't rule it out either.

we're (read as 'the government' because ordinary citizens are dissuaded from taking active steps to protect ourselves) supposed to be fortifying our country in some way, shape or form to protect ourselves from a future attack. how do we realistically do that when the borders are wide open?

wide open.

28,184,427 illegal aliens today.

"... the population of the U.S. in 1850 was 23,191,867" - taken from a u.s. population estimate website.

it's a very significant number.

do we follow the law or do we abandon it? by current standards, the law regarding illegal entry means very little. my vote is that we enforce it.

since you're asking me, tenet - that's what i'd do.
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Old 03-30-2006, 01:58 AM   #37
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Ireland doesn't have laws governing 'illegals' as yes, maybe we might not have the same problem as the states, but everyone here is welcome as long as they work.

It's the socialist vs. the capitalist state of mind.

As mentioned many time before, our social welfare system will pay our citizens forever. You can live off it for life without ever working, and the abuse rate is under 4%. Even if you are one of those people who take a year or two off, its understood. People here don't think twice about it nor do they label you 'lazy' or any other detrimental terms.

It's more of an American mind-set that causes this issue. The 'I work for mine so you work for yers' instead of the idea of giving a little to help everyone so society is equal. When I first moved to Clare, where I am now, I knew 2 people. After being here 1 day and meeting a few people in pubs, I had 4 different places to stay, over €200 given to me, actually force upon me by people who were in the pub, 2 job offers, and a dozen numbers of other employers hiring. People are happy to help out anyone who isn't working or needs a little help.

Thats where the problem lies. You have to want to help people instead of protect your own material wealth. If everyone is equal, then you have less crime, and a better society.

And if you spend your money on the people instead of bombs, you have things like unemployment that doesn't run out, funding to pay for any unplanned children, and free healthcare.

But this isn't an American problem, it's a capitalist problem. You have to open yourself to the idea of helping your neighbor, whether he be black, yellow, brown, or purple merely because he is a human and your neighbor.

Did I mention that Ireland, about 240 miles from long end to long end, smaller than Rhode Island, collected more money in pubs from people donating in buckets with 'TSUNAMI RELIEF' written on them to send for the tsunami relief fund than the US government gave? Thats impressive if you ask me. Also reflects the mindset here.

This is also true as far as the mindset in Sweden/Norway/Finland/Denmark and almost identical in Australia. All have almost identical social welfare systems and socialist republics. But kinda going off topic.

My point being is in a society where people value materialistic wealth more than the well being of the person next to them, you will have battles over who gets what money.

Funny thing is, as I posted earlier in the Robin Williams thread, the government estimates almost 2 billion a year would be needed to 'fund' all those 11 million 'illegals' in the states, giving them basic anemnities and what not. Of course the government has no problem spending 4-6 billion a month in Iraq, but can't seem to find the 2 billion a year to help out 11 million people (including many women and many children) because thats 'not in their budget and not their problem'.

And they are spending how much of the short time they have in congress, TV air time, radio time, speeches, etc. trying to debate this issue which in the end boils down to a mere 2 billion cost to the American tax payer at best?

Sad.
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Old 03-30-2006, 12:05 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn

Did I mention that Ireland, about 240 miles from long end to long end, smaller than Rhode Island, collected more money in pubs from people donating in buckets with 'TSUNAMI RELIEF' written on them to send for the tsunami relief fund than the US government gave? Thats impressive if you ask me. Also reflects the mindset here.
Care to back that very BOLD statement up with some facts?

I would love to see some evidence supporting your claim.
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Old 03-30-2006, 01:02 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by 4mytribe
Was taking a nap when I heard honks and shouts and screams. Thought I was dreaming. Opened the front door to hundreds and hundreds of Mexican teenagers marching down the street. I didnt see one American flag but I saw dozens of Mexican flags. When you live where I live you know this isnt immigration this is reconquista. Oh yeah and they had a police escort so they must feel pretty important as I guess they are. They are the future and they know it. This is their land now and they are making their demands. This is the beggining of their demands. Wonder what else their gonna want. Whatever it is probably wont be good for me.

Wonder how long this is going to go on. Its really pissing off the rest of us down here. Its all I hear about.
4MYTRIBE: Suggestion: Wear earplugs immediately before bedtime, if outside noise bothers you. I fully respect another person's rest & all, but your complaints about the participants of a immigrant-rights street march through your block strikes me as nativist to the point of racist. Your post reads like ultraconservative political science analyst/writer Samuel Huntingdon's worst fears about the U.$. [& its White populace's] future. Paranoid to the point of racist. This the type of thinking that inspired the Minuteman Project & its splinter groups to engage in armed, nativist vigilante actions near the U.$.-Mexico border last Spring to now.
I'm with Xng on this. They're part of this nation now & the only thing they're making demands about is equality. They want the same rights that so-called "legal' citizens have. They pay taxes each year. Without immigrants's labour & their daily contributions, this civilisation would fucking collapse because there'd be no one else willing to do certain low-paying jobs that immigrants are often hired for. The United $tates was formed & legitimised 230 years ago because of immigration. English, Scots & Dutch folks leaving their homelands in the dust & settling here for a shot at a new life.

The Mexicans on your block were "going nutz" because House Resolution 4437 impacts them the most. They are possibly undocumented immigrants or are U.$.-born Mexicans who have such people in their families. Under this new bill, undocumented immigrants can be automatically deported by I.C.E. after being captured/jailed by local cops/sheriff's deputies. Conversely, this bill also impacts people who help out undocumented immigrants; doctors/nurses/social workers/teachers/even activists like myself can be arrested/jailed on aiding-&-abetting charges. House Resolution 4437 also helps to further militarise the U.$. -Mexico border through the construction of a protracted "Triple Fence" spanning from San Ysidro-Tijuana area to El Paso-Rio Grande area. Operation: Gatekeeper [which the Clinton Gore regime implemented in 1994, the same time N.A.F.T.A. was] had already militarised the border. This will make it harder & more life-threatening for those who seek to stay or work here. this also gives nativist groups with White supremacist/Fascist group ties like the Minuteman Project an excuse to harass/intimidate/harm undcoumented immigrants, be they Mexican, Central AmeriMickey Mouse Kluban, South AmeriMickey Mouse Kluban or otherwise. [No Xng, this spelling was not done out of intolerance]. The House Of Representatives passed it in December 2005 & was sent to the Senate. As of 3 days ago, the Senate approved it. Now, comes the last step: Congress. If congress makes it into law, it's going to be hell on Earth.

If I were Mexican & something like this was put in place against me, I'd raise a ruckus about it, too. This law impacts me every bit as much as it does them, so I'm going to continue doing my share of raising a ruckus.
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Old 03-30-2006, 01:20 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edible_eye
i suspect no one here has an issue with LEGAL immigration.

the issue here, today deals with ILLEGAL aliens.

ILLEGAL.

there's no wiggle room there to discuss.

ILLEGAL aliens broke the law.

LEGAL immigrants followed the rules.

lord dagon - for the first time since you joined, i both agreed with and enjoyed the words you wrote on this thread. thank you for your honesty.

to everyone who jumped on 4mytribe's back, i'm confused. are you all saying that we, american citizens, should simply lay down, surrender our country and forfeit our laws to ILLEGAL aliens - just because they demand it?

this isn't a prediction of what's to come. these protests / riots are going on now. right now.

is it ok for ILLEGAL aliens to mandate how our country will treat them? if you think it is, i don't know what to say to you other than in my opinion - you've laid down and given up your own rights as americans. you've allowed people from outside the country to tell you how you're going to live.

and that you would both argue for them to sidestep our laws as well as attack a citizen who voiced concern about this... that's both frightening to me as well as unsettling concerning where this country is headed.
EDIBLE_EYE: This is possibly the 1st instance where you & I are on seperate sides of an issue. And this post will probably result in us becoming enemies. It will also possibly result in me leaving this messageboard for good.

I'm willing to risk it.

I've already laid down my response to 4MyTribe's 2 posts regarding the immigrant-rights protests. I stand by them. Immigrants [undocumented or otherwise] have every right to tell the powers that be how they should be treated; they obey the same laws & pay taxes yearly like U.$.-born citizens do. The only difference is: They don't don't want to do anything to jeopardise their immigration-status. They've cautiously avoided any kind of open political dissent [street protests] because it would do such. Until now. Until a Midwestern G.O.P. senator devised/released House Resolution 4437 last Fall.

I respectfully disagree with your rather nativist/patriotic response to this issue.

And far as I'm concerned, NO ONE IS "ILLEGAL".
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Old 03-30-2006, 04:03 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pathogen.
EDIBLE_EYE: This is possibly the 1st instance where you & I are on seperate sides of an issue. And this post will probably result in us becoming enemies. It will also possibly result in me leaving this messageboard for good.

I'm willing to risk it.

I've already laid down my response to 4MyTribe's 2 posts regarding the immigrant-rights protests. I stand by them. Immigrants [undocumented or otherwise] have every right to tell the powers that be how they should be treated; they obey the same laws & pay taxes yearly like U.$.-born citizens do. The only difference is: They don't don't want to do anything to jeopardise their immigration-status. They've cautiously avoided any kind of open political dissent [street protests] because it would do such. Until now. Until a Midwestern G.O.P. senator devised/released House Resolution 4437 last Fall.

I respectfully disagree with your rather nativist/patriotic response to this issue.

And far as I'm concerned, NO ONE IS "ILLEGAL".


Don't feel bad Pathogen, I agree with you on this issue.

That is why I have refrained from participating in this discussion, it hits way too close to home for me.

My son is Half-Mexican, and I was raised by an Illegal Alien from El Salvador. Which she remained until Reagan granted Amnesty in the Eighties.


But please don't leave over this.

Not everyone agrees with the opinions here okay?

And believe me this thread and some of the sentiments expressed in it make me friggin ill.

If I can find the rant I wrote on the issue a few months ago I will link it for you here.

Just know you are not alone on this issue.

I can't speak for others, only myself.
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Old 03-30-2006, 04:08 PM   #42
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Here are the posts I made when we were having this same discussion in the Robin Williams Peace Plan thread;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empty_Purple_Stars
I don't have numbers to illustrate my point, but I will attempt to make it anyway.

The Federal Government, also makes tremendous amounts of money in 'unclaimed taxes'. Many illegal aliens use Social Security cards and Id's that are not their own. They use these to obtain employment, so they appear to be legal. Sometimes the numbers are simply fake, sometimes they are the numbers of deceased citizens.

When Tax time rolls around every year, any monies owed the employee, remain unclaimed. This allows illegal worker to stay under the radar, and helps Uncle Sam get MUCH Richer.

You do the Math..

That's alot of friggin money, no matter how you slice it. Money that is basically donated to the Federal Government, without any strings attached.

The Federal Government has also been recruiting soldiers in Mexico. Promising citizenship and benefits to these soldiers and their families, if they enlist. These Men receive less training than our American Soldiers do, but they are still shipped overseas with only a Rifle and and a "Combat Fighting 101" handbook. When they are Killed in Action, their families receive only the heartbreak of getting their loved one back in a bodybag. No military benefits of ANY kind, no proper military burial. No benefits for their spouse or children.

They get Jack and Shit for the sacrifice their sons made for a country that wasn't even their own.

Before anyone cries Foul, I met three families while I was in Mexico last year who were victim of this very scam from our government. It is truly despicable. All three of these mother's had to go farther into debt just to bury their sons, who died fighting in a war for the United States. They were promised the moon, and in return they received a corpse.

It's not right, and it's going on everyday under our very noses.

Let's look at the emotional side of things for a moment.

I speak fluent Spanish. I learned it from my Nanny, who was from El Salvador. She came to live with us when I was very small. My parents both owned their own businesses, and consequently were gone most of the time. This woman, Maria, raised me like her own child. During this time the very bloody Civil War in El Salvador was ongoing.

I grew up listening to stories of the Guerillas & the Government raids and massacres. Maria watched FIVE of her brothers shot to death in front of her and her family, for being suspected of harboring sympathizers. Maria's family were simple farmers, and had no ties to either side of the war. But the Government didn't care what the truth was, they gunned them down in cold blood because of a mere suspicion.

The fighting over there became so bad, that no one slept in beds anymore. Everyone slept on the floor, away from windows. This was to try and shield themselves from the nightly bombings and machine gun attacks from both the Government and the Guerillas. They ceased using public transportation for the same reasons. Everyone walked if they had somewhere to go. it was too risky to ride in a vehicle that could be bombed.

Maria and her baby sister also watched a Busload of Priests and Nuns get gunned down by the Government outside of her Church. Their only crime was giving the Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament to all that attended the Church. Regardless of political affiliation or 'suspected' affiliation. The Priest and Nuns were then stripped of their Vestments, and left naked and dead in the street in front of the church.

This was an avergage day, for Maria.

So it takes little imagination to see why Maria finally decided to flee El Salvador.

It took her 3 MONTHS of Hellish conditions, walking through terrain that isn't hospitable even for the animals that live there. Swimming through rivers, fighting off predators, searching for food and water. She endured all of that, WILLINGLY to avoid going back to the Hell on Earth, that her country had become. That says a whole fucking lot. Imagine the motivation you would have to possess to embark upon that kind of a journey ON FOOT, knowing that the chances were good you would die along the way.

You'd have to be pretty godamn frightened of STAYING to be LESS AFRAID of GOING.

She made her choice, and lived through it.

Her Mother and Father weren't so lucky. They were caught in the crossfire of a gunbattle between the Guerillas and the Government after she left. According to Maria's Aunt, they were each shot more than Fifty times. They had to bury Pieces of them, because they were sliced into ribbons.

Her Baby sister was attacked and ***** by the Guerillas, she committed suicide not long afterwards because of the shame she felt.

What would Maria's story have been, if she had stayed?

And why I ask you, is it wrong that she fought to save her life?

Self-preservation is one of the most basic of Human Emotions. You can't turn it off. It is simply one of the driving forces that we as human beings, experience every day. When pushed to the limit of endurance, EVERYONE can be motivated to do dangerous and rash things to survive.

Everyone reading these words right now, could potentially be compelled to flee their homes if it meant the difference between Life or Death for them or their families.

It's easy to throw stones when you've never been a cornered animal, yourself.

Maria didn't flee El Salvador because she didn't love her Country, her Home. Maria fled El Salvador because she loved HERSELF more. She missed her Homeland very much, but she refused to let it be her Executioner.


I see no fault in that.

Many years later, Maria recived Amnesty and became a citizen of the United States.

But for me, her status was never in question.

She was a proud, strong, brave woman regardless of what a piece of paper said about her.

She overcame amazing odds to come to a place where she knew she would be SAFE.

Land of the Free, Home of the Brave..

Right?



Le Sigh...
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Old 03-30-2006, 04:09 PM   #43
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And again;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empty_Purple_Stars

I stand by my earlier assertion, that EVERY one of us would do the SAME thing if we felt that our lives and our childrens lives would be bettered by fleeing to a country where they could be safe and have hope for a future.

As I said before, self-preservation is a basic human emotion. On our most Primal level, we seek to preserve ourselves. It is instinctual and it is a part of our humanity that is older than time itself.

Wolfie, yes I agree that our Federal Government should not be recruting outside of the United States. At the VERY LEAST these men deserve citizenship and benefits for their families if Killed in Action. Words cannot describe the Fury and the Sadness that I saw on the faces of the families I met whose children lost their lives, fighting a war that wasn't even theirs. If imigrants don't really want citizenship as ED claims, then why are these men placing themselves in the line of fire, in the HOPE that they will become United States citizens if they survive their tour of duty?

And WHY is the life of a Mexican Soldier worth LESS than the life of a US Soldier?

Why are they sent to the front lines with LESS training than our own soldiers receive?

How fucked up is that?

It seems to me that they are viewed as being 'disposable'.

Human Beings are NOT dispoasable, no matter what their nationality.

The Day Labor corners that Sternn speaks of, can be found all over the US. Particularly in the South. They stand and wait for people who need work done to pick them up, and take them somewhere to work for a day.

Since when did an HONEST days work for an HONEST days pay, become a bad thing?

No matter what kind of spin you want tp put on it, illegal immigrants perform jobs that MOST American's consider themselves to proud to perform. It's a fact. Most of the immigrants I have known in my life, work two or three jobs to care for their family. Their culture is rooted in the family nucleus. The family cares for the family. A lesson I think we as Americans, need to do a better job of learning. There is a reason these families stay close to each other. There is a reason why a Mother will leave her children and overcome incredible odds to reach a country where she can work and send money home to her kids.

In Tijuana alone the AVERAGE income is LESS than $75.00 a month.

You try and live on that.

And the really sad thing, is that contrary to popular belief, things ARE NOT any cheaper over there. Light bills, water bills, phone bills, rent is comparable to what you find in the states.

$75.00 a month

There just is no physical way to pay for ALL of your families needs, including food, on that kind of income. You just can't do it.

Medical Care? LOL Yeah right. There isn't any, unless you have money and lots of it.

If your kids get sick, oh well. If you get sick, too bad. If you need medicine, hold your breath and pray you pass out. You're not going to get it. Not without money.

And if you manage to make a little chunk of change, the Federales will pull you over and STEAL whatever money you have on your person. You don't argue with these guys, you just hand over whatever you have. And no, they don't just roll the tourists, they roll just about every person they pull over. Regardless of where they live. If you have cash in your wallet or purse, you can kiss it goodbye. And you BETTER not argue about it.

These same cops roll around town in Pickup Trucks with 50 Cal. Machine Guns in the back. You'd expect that kind of display in Columbia or Honduras, but it was suprising to see it in Mexico. Great big guns, and cops in full armored gear. 7 or 8 to a Truck.

The people there in many of the towns and cities are virtual prisoners. It's like Warsaw all over again. Raw sewage in the streets, running freely. Children playing in HUGE heaps of Rotting Garbage, because there is nowhere else to play. The criminals are basically unchecked, and manage to take, **** or murder anything or anyone that stands in their way. The people are held hostage by ALL of these elements, and have nowhere else to turn, but here.

What would you do?

I mean really think about it. What would YOU do, if you were forced to live like an animal?

Everyone can say " Well, just fix it.."

But how? How do you make a difference when you can't even feed and clothe yourself and your family? How do you rise up against your Oppressors when you're too weak to fight?

You don't. Which is EXACTLY the way most of the Governments like these want it.

A beaten people, are an obedient people.

When you lose the will to do anything but try to survive, you stop having the ability to fight back. You lose the vision that allows you to see the Hope of Change.

It's quite brilliant in a really sick way, and that same psychological conditioning is being played out in countries like Mexico, all over the world.

These people are NOT the enemy, they are who you and I MIGHT have been, if we had been born in different places.

It's really as simple as that.
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Old 03-30-2006, 04:26 PM   #44
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do we follow the law or do we abandon it? by current standards, the law regarding illegal entry means very little. my vote is that we enforce it.

I know I am putting my ass out there, but I feel I have to give my opinion.

Everytime we look at someone as an illegal immigrant, I think we should think, way back to the heritage of the United States. I didn't see a welcome mat for the British citizens to come in and say, "Hey! Come take the land". Infact, if my memory serves correct, many of the original natives lost their lives, and were put on bounty. Now we have them in places called "Reservations", purely out of guilt.

You may say, "There were no laws", and I cannot refute this fact. What I can refute is how much a law should mean. When we limit the individual freedoms of the people in an effort to contain what some would call an infestation, we are limiting the freedoms of all. I understand that the United States was founded on the ideals of government, and control, but I also understand that it was a land based on the people.

The people are what should decide which law passes, and only the people. Even senators cannot pass a law without the concent of the people, and when you do so, you are shifting from a democracy to some form of dictatorship. When laws are put in place, they shouldn't be the be-all, end-all. That's what amendments are for, the ability to change the law to fit the times.

I won't argue the issue of terrorism. An open border allows for people who simply wish to cause harm to others to enter unabridged. With this said, you are also limiting those few, actual honest, hardworking men and women, who followed the "American Dream". Should you punish those who can't afford to make a better lives for themselves, by making it so that no one can enter?

Where will it stop? Once you close off the borders, do you start doing crackdowns on the people already present? Then do you start denying citizens that have legally come from other countries, their rights? Then do you start denying people the right to be a citizen? It would be a breakdown on the spirit of :

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!!


I say we let them in, and we embrace them with open arms. Give them the rights they deserve, perhaps not as citizens, but as people of a country built on the thought of freedom from oppression.

I say those who would rebel against their government in protest, more power to you. It is the constitutional right of the people to petition the government for a change, based on the bill of rights, which to my knowledge, has been challenged and proven to be nearly invincible in the court of law. Perhaps they are not citizens now, but shouldn't we give them the chance to become them?
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Old 03-30-2006, 04:39 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icarian Decoding
the bill of rights, which to my knowledge, has been challenged and proven to be nearly invincible in the court of law
Some preliminary thoughts: Yes, but which court? And what presuppositions were in place to produce the Bill of Rights? And further, by 'found invincible', do you mean 'upheld as universally applicable' or do you mean 'vague enough to cause unending debate'? Are the points in the Bill of Rights 'rights according to the law', i.e. privileges, or 'rights according to human being-ness', and thus beyond the law?
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Old 03-30-2006, 04:46 PM   #46
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Yes, but which court? To my knowledge, it hasn't been beaten in any court.

And what presuppositions were in place to produce the Bill of Rights? From the little American history I have taken, I wouldn't really know. Like I said, I'm sticking my ass out.

And further, by 'found invincible', do you mean 'upheld as universally applicable' or do you mean 'vague enough to cause unending debate'? I mean both. It's universally applicable with the beliefs I hold, and it's vague/general enough to cause unending debate about what it actually means. It's just my interpretation of the law.

Are the points in the Bill of Rights 'rights according to the law', i.e. privileges, or 'rights according to human being-ness', and thus beyond the law? My belief is that they are rights according to my view of being a human being, and that the points in the Bill of Rights are the law. I did make the arguement that sometimes the law needs to be changed, but I can see no flaw in the laws provided in the bill of rights.
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Old 03-31-2006, 06:18 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pathogen.
EDIBLE_EYE: This is possibly the 1st instance where you & I are on seperate sides of an issue. And this post will probably result in us becoming enemies. It will also possibly result in me leaving this messageboard for good.

I'm willing to risk it.
good lord, pathogen. i hope this won't cause us to be enemies and please don't leave the message board because of your argument. we're just tossing around our thoughts and feelings here. your opinion on the matter is just as valid as my own - at least that's the way i see it. i disagree with you, but hey - that's the foundation of what makes america great. we can disagree on any issue and still, our voice is heard.

i feel that an american is someone who both wants to become a citizen of this land AND follows the rules concerning how he or she should go about it. no citizenship, no voice. that's it - cliff note's version. if you don't mind someone coming here from another country and telling you how you're going to accept them and that it's ok to side-step the law, so be it. i don't agree.

i've knocked heads with sternn many-a-time and i still don't consider us "enemies". we just don't see eye-to-eye when it comes to our political, social and economic leanings.

i'd still buy you a beer if we ever met.

---------------------------------
and to icarian decoding -

your initial post makes it sound as though we, americans, accept no immigrants into our land - legal or otherwise.

there is a system in effect to support legal immigration. illegal entry remains illegal, no matter how you try to buffer your reasoning. just because someone wants something doesn't mean someone has to automatically get it. someone who both demands something and then has a fit if it's not given immediately is commonly known as a spoiled-brat.
------------------------

i don't understand how or why this concept is so hard to digest. when you or i want a job, we apply for the job - we don't just waltz into a company and demand that we are hired. how did this sense of entitlement become so ingrained within peoples' heads? and even worse - how did it become so infectious that others bestow said entitlement unto someone just because they both demand it and feel it is their right on the simple basis of their existence?

what's next? someone sees your apartment or your house, wants it for their own and so they take it? your car? your kids? your wife or husband? ... they take to the streets and protest because you have something they don't and demand that it is bestowed unto them?

immediate gratification and the elimination of repercussions for illegal activity does not a society make. the law is the law. i obey it. i expect my fellow countrymen to obey it as well. those who would like to be granted fellow countrymen status have available to them the means by which to become one. and i expect that those who break the law have consequences to deal with, just as i'd expect to have to deal with them myself.

if a majority of the people want to eliminate the naturalization process and throw wide the borders to allow anyone and everyone free access to america, no questions asked - then the laws need to be changed.

i don't support that measure and i am one voice.

however, having laws in place and not enforcing them breeds confusion, anger and quite possibly hatred. when a citizen who appreciates his or her country and works to conduct him or herself in a proper manner within the societal construct he or she resides in begins to see an influx of people who break the law and are subsequently granted special benefit without repercussion - it's only a matter of time before civil unrest rears its ugly head.

singular stories of contact with illegal aliens here and there don't mean very much. i deal with them on an almost daily basis. so what? some of them are cool, others are shitheads but the bottom line is - they're all illegal aliens and the i.n.s. turns a blind eye to them. so, we have laws on the books that aren't enforced as well as government agencies who don't do what their jobs were created for and still, people think it's ok.

i'd hate to see the day that public support rises for a cop who stood by, eating a bag of popcorn while he watched a woman ***** because a man wanted to have sex with her and she said "no". even more, public support for that same cop who decided to shoot the woman during the act because she wouldn't stop screaming. you see? lawlessness and a government emplyee who doesn't do his job. according to the logic laid down thus far by those who support illegal activity, the above is just as valid as the rest of it - especially if the **** was done by a massive gang.
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Old 03-31-2006, 06:58 AM   #48
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I am fully aware of a system that is present to join the community of the US. I am also aware that it is designed for those who are above the poverty-line, which would rule out. It's based on the system of, "You have to be able to give to us first, then you can live here".

When you use the company reference, you are overlooking a few factors. We are talking about quality of life, which shouldn't require being hired. Apartments, cars, etc, are all personal properties, something not owned by the state. They are owned by the citizen. The country itself is the state, which should be open to the public.

Your fellow countrymen reference is good, and I also obey the law, and expect others to obey the law, but when I believe that the law has gone from the benefit of the people, I refuse to follow it. If those who break the law are immediately punished, how is reform to take place?

The naturalization process is simply paperwork, registering yourself with the state and giving the state money so they can accept you as a citizen. I know this from first hand experience. It's not something for all the poor masses, and those seeking refuge from war and poverty. It's not free, as it should be, and it's not effective for anyone genuinely looking for a better life.

I would have to agree with your last statement though. The day I see a woman being harmed, because it was a massive gang, is the day that something should be done. Not by government, but right now. It's illegal, but it's not valid under the rest. Under the rest, it was my assumption that we were talking about pacifistic moving to go under the banner of the US, something of the individual. Lawless, yes. Perhaps neccesary. Your reference was to the harm of the individual, which I don't believe in.
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Old 03-31-2006, 07:47 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icarian Decoding
I am fully aware of a system that is present to join the community of the US. I am also aware that it is designed for those who are above the poverty-line, which would rule out. It's based on the system of, "You have to be able to give to us first, then you can live here".
show me, please where it states that. i'm curious to see where that fits into the framework of the naturalization process.

http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/index.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by icarian decoding
When you use the company reference, you are overlooking a few factors. We are talking about quality of life, which shouldn't require being hired. Apartments, cars, etc, are all personal properties, something not owned by the state. They are owned by the citizen. The country itself is the state, which should be open to the public.
usually, when one seeks employment, it is for the betterment of one's quality of life. what's the difference in place of residence, otherwise? i find it interesting that material possessions and working to provide for one's own are things you describe as being a part of life "which shouldn't require being hired", which i'll take the liberty to interpret as - one shouldn't be responsible for earning on one's own.

so that leaves a question - who should be responsible for someone's quality of life, if not that person him or herself? and further, is it ok to work for a supposed quality of life betterment through illegitimate means?

the country IS open to the public - the public of citizens who are a part of it. a country is nothing more than a foundation upon which the citizenry builds a societal construct. having others force their way in and demanding to be called a part of that is ludicrous.

try walking into a gang meeting some night and demanding that you be included as a member. see what it gets you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by icarian decoding
Your fellow countrymen reference is good, and I also obey the law, and expect others to obey the law, but when I believe that the law has gone from the benefit of the people, I refuse to follow it. If those who break the law are immediately punished, how is reform to take place?
reform takes place the way i stated - by rewriting the law or abolishing it altogether, not by picking and choosing which laws to obey willy-nilly. it doesn't work both ways.

reform also takes place by the citizens of this country making their voices heard. if a majority believe in open borders and the disintegration of the naturalization process, so be it. i don't believe that is the majority vote, though and as such reform will hopefully be avoided unless it's to enforce the law as its written.

Quote:
Originally Posted by icarian decoder
The naturalization process is simply paperwork, registering yourself with the state and giving the state money so they can accept you as a citizen. I know this from first hand experience. It's not something for all the poor masses, and those seeking refuge from war and poverty. It's not free, as it should be, and it's not effective for anyone genuinely looking for a better life.
why should it be free? what's the justification for that statement?

i say - if you want something - earn it, work for it, do what it takes to make it happen. that's half the problem with the bullsit going on these days. people feel they are entitled to something merely becaus they want it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by icarian decoder
I would have to agree with your last statement though. The day I see a woman being harmed, because it was a massive gang, is the day that something should be done. Not by government, but right now. It's illegal, but it's not valid under the rest. Under the rest, it was my assumption that we were talking about pacifistic moving to go under the banner of the US, something of the individual. Lawless, yes. Perhaps neccesary. Your reference was to the harm of the individual, which I don't believe in.
how do you qualify one illegal act and yet condemn another? are you a judge? what are your credentials establishing your point of reference for a legitimate versus an illegitimate law?

my reference was a shocking analogy concerning the harm of one by the unlawful activity of another, while the law to prohibit it sits idly by to illustrate my point. it was not meant, in this context, to be taken literally.
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Last edited by edible_eye; 03-31-2006 at 08:00 AM.
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Old 03-31-2006, 08:07 AM   #50
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I didn't know that you had to pay to become a legal citizen. I always thought it was free?

That just seems so wrong to me. Why are they making people pay for something that (to my knowledge) was free to my immigrant ancestors?

I thought the whole point of "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses..." was that they would be taken in freely. It is sad that the ones who truly need a better life don't have free access to it because they don't have the fucking money. Give us your poor? Yeah, right. They should change it to "We'll take you and your money", fucking cock-sucking wankenstein of a government!

Praise the Almighty Dollar!

Fucking Meh!
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