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Old 07-09-2012, 12:42 AM   #1
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So.

How much of the unauthorized immigration debate is based in genuinely economic concerns, and how much stems from racism?
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:55 AM   #2
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Stems from scapegoating. Just think of the rhetoric before 2009.
Before the recession it used to be about how we're stealing jobs. Now it's about how we're getting welfare for doing nothing. Right there you see that immigrants are a boogeyman that can conveniently organize themselves by the millions to do the most harm possible to America at any given moment; if it's thriving it's taking that development away and if it's struggling it's taking advantage of its weakness.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:37 AM   #3
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I am inclined to agree with Alan. The Nazis blamed their economic woes on the jews, and the modern nazis of europe are blaming them on the muslims.
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:25 PM   #4
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How much of the unauthorized immigration debate is based in genuinely economic concerns, and how much stems from racism?
Most of the bitching about unauthorized / illegal immigration I have heard has been predicated on the idea that people are making use of social services without contributing back into the system, presumably directly in terms of paying taxes. (I don't care who my tax dollars help as long as they help someone, fyi, this just seems to be the argument) The 'undocumented worker' cliche. I have a hard time seeing strictly race-based discrimination actually being a thing after our grandparents die out.

Being poor sucks, being rich is awesome.
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Old 07-09-2012, 06:01 PM   #5
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Most of the bitching about unauthorized / illegal immigration I have heard has been predicated on the idea that people are making use of social services without contributing back into the system, presumably directly in terms of paying taxes. (I don't care who my tax dollars help as long as they help someone, fyi, this just seems to be the argument) The 'undocumented worker' cliche. I have a hard time seeing strictly race-based discrimination actually being a thing after our grandparents die out.

Being poor sucks, being rich is awesome.
The thing is racism among the younger generations is often more subtle than our more blatant elders, although people will be blatant when they feel comfortable to be.

Don't forget this goes way back, even US born citizens who happened to have Mexican ancestry were deported during the Great Depression to save jobs for "real" Americans.
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Old 07-10-2012, 01:14 AM   #6
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Oh things were absolutely terrible. And I'm sure places still are. Maybe I'll see it as more of a thing out here on the West coast.

The general sentiment when it comes to illegal immigrants seems to be more a matter of "how come he doesn't gotta pay taxes?" than "scary skin and clothings ahh!" There are racist people, and they are dumb and they suck. I just think economic standing has a much more immediate effect on an individual's quality of life. A millionaire hispanic person is going to have more opportunities in life than most other people. In most cases, the only color that matters is green.
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Old 07-10-2012, 04:20 AM   #7
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In the UK, the goverment are currently doing everything they can to push the idea that an oversized welfare bill is behind most of the country's current financial woes, and scapegoating immigrants is a big part of that. Unfortunately the Middle England Daily Mail-reading demographic seem to accept this without question in large part; to hear them go, you'd actually think it was housing immigrants in mansions and showering them with gold that caused the bloody recession. Yet this attitude seems to be so deeply entrenched that providing cast-iron figures isn't enough to change the opinions of such individuals. It never fails to terrify me just how much factual evidence people are willing to ignore in order to preserve untenable beliefs.
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Old 07-10-2012, 07:05 AM   #8
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It's not just being wealthy, a lot of it has to do with racism and flat out xenophobia. In the area I live in I've actually heard comments within earshot regarding minorities, "If he wasn't that color he wouldn't have been given any slack." (That's a polite way of putting it.) "I'm not racist but...(insert your own passive aggressive b/s line) And when regarding immigrants even the Hispanics in my area look down their noses at the ones coming from Mexico, referring to them as "wetb@cks" when describing a Mexican immigrant.

I think it's going to take at least two generations for this attitude to die down until the residents get over this negative outlook.
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Old 07-10-2012, 07:55 AM   #9
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I feel like people who say that it's about economic concerns are making an excuse. It seems odd that they would hone in on taxing the poor as a way to help the economy when the wealthy largely benefit from their tax contributions because it is so disproportionate from what the working class pays.



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I have a hard time seeing strictly race-based discrimination actually being a thing after our grandparents die out.
Why?

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The general sentiment when it comes to illegal immigrants seems to be more a matter of "how come he doesn't gotta pay taxes?" than "scary skin and clothings ahh!"
I know what people say, but my suspicion is that their reasons given aren't honest. It's like when bigots say "We're against same-sex marriage because it violates the sanctity of marriage" and then people address those concerns by calling it "civil unions," they're still shot down by those bigots. People don't need to blatantly say "I don't like Mexicans" for them to actually mean that when they bring up other arguments.

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I just think economic standing has a much more immediate effect on an individual's quality of life. A millionaire hispanic person is going to have more opportunities in life than most other people. In most cases, the only color that matters is green.
You can't deny that race effects everyone, regardless of their economic standing. You can't compare Oprah to anyone in the working class, you have to compare her to someone in the same class.

I hate to point that out, but I have to.
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Old 07-10-2012, 08:19 AM   #10
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I once made a rant about white people being patronizing, and a white dude came up and defended himself by saying he's not so much white but rather a 'dark tan color'.
Just putting that out there. White people don't tend to understand racism.
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Old 07-10-2012, 10:10 AM   #11
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I feel like people who say that it's about economic concerns are making an excuse. It seems odd that they would hone in on taxing the poor as a way to help the economy when the wealthy largely benefit from their tax contributions because it is so disproportionate from what the working class pays.

Why?

I know what people say, but my suspicion is that their reasons given aren't honest. It's like when bigots say "We're against same-sex marriage because it violates the sanctity of marriage" and then people address those concerns by calling it "civil unions," they're still shot down by those bigots. People don't need to blatantly say "I don't like Mexicans" for them to actually mean that when they bring up other arguments.

You can't deny that race effects everyone, regardless of their economic standing. You can't compare Oprah to anyone in the working class, you have to compare her to someone in the same class.

I hate to point that out, but I have to.
You know, it could be an excuse. I don't believe everyone who makes that (arguably stupid) complaint is just using "not paying taxes" as a wink and nod to be themselves racist without actually going for it blatantly, though. Assuming someone isn't paying their share just because they happen to descend from a particular ethnicity is fucked up. If I caught someone pulling the "I don't care if they are brown, yellow, or purple, as long as they contribute" and then acted shitty to someone in a clearly racist manner you bet I'd tell them they were full of shit and write them off.

The economic thing is a mindfuck all its own.

The levels and types of integration and interaction with various people is really different for me than it was for, I dunno, a dude who was born in the 20's or 30's. As the older generations die out they are going to take a lot of their useless baggage with them.
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Old 07-10-2012, 10:44 AM   #12
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You know, it could be an excuse. I don't believe everyone who makes that (arguably stupid) complaint is just using "not paying taxes" as a wink and nod to be themselves racist without actually going for it blatantly, though. Assuming someone isn't paying their share just because they happen to descend from a particular ethnicity is fucked up. If I caught someone pulling the "I don't care if they are brown, yellow, or purple, as long as they contribute" and then acted shitty to someone in a clearly racist manner you bet I'd tell them they were full of shit and write them off.
I don't think everyone is like that, but you know people can be racist unintetionaly and without maliciousness, right?



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The levels and types of integration and interaction with various people is really different for me than it was for, I dunno, a dude who was born in the 20's or 30's. As the older generations die out they are going to take a lot of their useless baggage with them.
But how does that eliminate "strictly race-based discrimination?"
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Old 07-10-2012, 11:14 AM   #13
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If by eliminate you mean literally eradicate it everywhere and forever, well, that'll probably never happen.

Racist old people die. Young people grow up watching Sesame Street and are surrounded by different ethnicities who they work with, play with, and date, and realize it doesn't matter and people can be cool or dicks regardless of their genetic or cultural markers. Thus the future is saved.
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Old 07-10-2012, 11:25 AM   #14
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I don't think the problem is solved just with 'racist old people dying'. The young learn from their elders and if those who are teaching are teaching racism, intentional or not, that's what is learned. You can't solve a problem so deeply ingrained into modern culture just by killing off the older generations.
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Old 07-10-2012, 11:32 AM   #15
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I think you're being incredibly naive. I know lots of people my age and younger who are unapologetically racist, I guess because of our demographics here its mostly towards aboriginals. I grew up with a guy who once said its a good thing we killed off all the Beothuk so they're not mooching off our tax money now. He is a high school teacher now.

Racist grandparents teach racism to their children who teach racism to their children. Even if you don't have racist parents, you have racist friends, a racist media, a racist government, a racist society. Its extremely hard to be white and not be racist.
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Old 07-10-2012, 12:27 PM   #16
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Most of the malicious racism that I've heard comes from people in my peer group, the older folks that say racist shit seem to be more likely to say it out of ignorance, not that this is always the case but I feel pretty damn comfortable saying that if we are waiting for racists to die out then we will be waiting a very long time.
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Old 07-10-2012, 06:32 PM   #17
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Am I the only one that's optimistic about the whole ordeal?

Our generation is uniquely advantaged and lucky. Right now, I'm talking with people from Canada, Germany, Mexico, and people from several major cities.

I think that's something good. The internet. It's exposing us to all kinds of ideas and opinions we may have never been aware of before the internet came around.

Surely with access to communication like this, stuff has got to be improving.
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Old 07-10-2012, 06:57 PM   #18
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Am I the only one that's optimistic about the whole ordeal?

Our generation is uniquely advantaged and lucky. Right now, I'm talking with people from Canada, Germany, Mexico, and people from several major cities.

I think that's something good. The internet. It's exposing us to all kinds of ideas and opinions we may have never been aware of before the internet came around.

Surely with access to communication like this, stuff has got to be improving.
It also makes it easier to voice racism and for racists to organize, such as with Stormfront. Or easier to threaten. For example, I don't know if you're familiar with Laci Green but she's this feminist who has said some transphobic/cissexist/racist/Islamophobic things just to name a few, and she got a death threat recently and a dox. That is scary by itself, but others point out that people of colour who blog about racism get death threats and doxxed all the fricken time, but most are being told "well if you don't support Laci now we won't support you when someone threatens your life."

The internet also makes it a lot easier to be an asshole and hurt someone from miles away.
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Old 07-10-2012, 07:34 PM   #19
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Old 07-11-2012, 09:01 PM   #20
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It also makes it easier to voice racism and for racists to organize, such as with Stormfront. Or easier to threaten. For example, I don't know if you're familiar with Laci Green but she's this feminist who has said some transphobic/cissexist/racist/Islamophobic things just to name a few, and she got a death threat recently and a dox. That is scary by itself, but others point out that people of colour who blog about racism get death threats and doxxed all the fricken time, but most are being told "well if you don't support Laci now we won't support you when someone threatens your life."

The internet also makes it a lot easier to be an asshole and hurt someone from miles away.
This is true, but it also makes it so easy to befriend people across the globe. I can't tell you how much I've learned over the years on this forum. Surprisingly enough, I still talk to some of the people I first met here, almost a decade ago. I wasn't always as open-minded as I am, now. I spent a lot of time debating, discussing, messaging, questioning and clowning around with the people that were here and it really opened my eyes to the world around me. I am grateful for the times I was called out on bullshit and the arguments that made me think about my own views on things at the time.

Like Ashley, I feel optimistic about global communication.
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Old 07-12-2012, 06:36 PM   #21
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Oh I think the internet is in indisposable tool for education and discourse, but you have to want to use it that way for it to work that way, you know? And even when you put that info right in front of someone, they don't "get" it.
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Old 07-13-2012, 07:37 PM   #22
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Yeah, I guess the person does have to be willing to learn. Perhaps more people will be willing to do so as the future progresses.
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Old 07-14-2012, 09:02 AM   #23
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The issue of illegal immigration is yet another example how other problems with governments can create and increase the scope of other issues. Money in politics, the war on drugs and the "need" for cheap labor that people always scream about have blown what would be a small or non-issue out of proportion.
The honest truth of the problem is that nothing is going to change with out people on both sides forcing major changes in there government.
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:05 AM   #24
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The 'illegal' immigration issue is not only a scapegoat, it is an issue than neither side wants to deal with because it actually benefits America.

How so you may ask?

Well, first there is the issue of taxes. Local taxes are collected via sales tax, home taxes, and vehicle taxes. It doesn't matter if you are in America legally or not, if you buy food, own a car, or rent/own a house you are paying local taxes. When it comes to Federal and State tax, if you make under a certain amount you will not pay either. The bottom half of America does not pay those taxes, and that is not including illegals. Therefore illegals are paying no less than the rest of the bottom 50% of Americans pay anyway. This means illegals are paying the same amount of tax as 50% of Americans and are not getting away with anything.

Per the filled up ERs, again, over 50 million Americans have no healthcare coverage so they also make up this number. If you take the number of estimated illegals (11 million) and compare it, it still means there are five times as many Americans who are doing the same thing, so it is safe to say the issues with crowded ERs has less to do with illegals and five times as much responsibility on actual Americans. Also remember they tend to fly under the radar so they rarely visit an ER unless it is life threatening, unlike many Americans.

Over crowded schools? Again, local taxes. Even the small bit of Federal funding which schools do receive is not based on tax revenue for an area but population, therefore illegals are actually HELPING some areas get more money for schools.

So per the idea illegals cause issues in America in regards to taxes, schools, and hospitals every single one of those hot button issues can be shown to be nothing more than empty rhetoric.

That's before you get into the labour issue. Illegals do not steal American jobs. They work the jobs Americans will not do. This has been proven time and time again. Google Georgia when they passed a law similar to that of Arizona recently. The farmers there, who identified themselves as GOP supporters, PROTESTED this as it caused a huge drop in people to work their fields. They offered pay slightly above minimum wage and still lacked 80% of the workers needed to do the job. Statistics show this is the same story in California. Georgia actually declared a state of emergency due to this and the government is now using convicts to work in the fields as they cannot get workers. Even when using convicts and offering them extra time off their sentencing if they work in the fields they cannot get enough prisoners to do the job. Nine out of ten convicts who signed up for the programme QUIT THE SAME DAY. Who would have thought hard back breaking labour in hundred degree sun would even scare prisoners?

To further this idea, in Arizona the local state government struck down one provision of their law - the part that held employers liable for hiring illegals. How telling is that? It would have stopped companies from hiring illegals, but business owners knowing they need these workers challenged this part of the law and had it struck out. I mean, there would be no illegal workers if there were no companies that would hire them, but that would mean making business owners responsible for their own actions and making them admit that the need these workers, so they removed the only provision which could have actually had a real effect and have again setup a system which allows big business to use illegal labour without fear of being prosecuted.

Without illegal labour the American agricutural industry would go bankrupt pretty much in a matter of months as there would be no harvests. Sure, wheat, corn, and many things harvested in the Mid-West can be done by big machines, but things like lettuce, oranges, strawberries, potatoes, grapes, etc. all have to be done BY HAND, and in a short time frame of a matter of days, else it will all die on the vine. The farmers can't pay but a certain amount for the labour needed, else it will directly effect the cost of the product. Who is going to pay $5 for a head of lettuce? $10 for a container of orange juice?

America needs illegals. The government knows this, however, the GOP often like to roll out this bogeyman around election time to make people think the failures the see in their society around them can be easily explained by blaming a group of foreigners. The sad thing is, many people buy into this without ever taking the time to research this and see that without illegals, America would not be able to feed itself.
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Old 07-16-2012, 04:07 AM   #25
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There is a lot of truth to that. The whole issue is one massive mess no matter what side you look at it from.
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