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Old 08-03-2011, 07:47 PM   #51
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I agree with doing away with the overt sexualisation of women in comics purely because it's creepy and encourages the stereotype of a neeky comic book subculture of basement-dwelling losers. As far as the homogenous representation of women goes however, male superheroes are also represented as a ridiculous homogenous archetype.

http://api.ning.com/files/U420uLHGAB...e_Superman.jpg

Is this realism, or is this an archetypal portrayal representative of a fantasy genre dependent on characters who are, by their very nature, abnormal?
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Old 08-03-2011, 08:08 PM   #52
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Sorry if I sound a little slow with the males, but Superman's physique isn't exactly rare for many athletes.

However, I would argue that Superman makes perfect sense to be insanely buff. Batman also makes a lot of sense to be super buff. I guess you could stress that the more agile characters that are male could stand to be thinner, but you have those as well, with The Joker, The Riddler, Penguine, The Blob (he's actually fat as hell)...

Honestly, I don't think I'd quite get why a superhero could ever just be a soft, scrawny guy if he's been fighting villains all the time. In fact, logic would give levity to the idea that female heroes should technically be buff as well and NOT built like super models.

Actually, I'd argue that comics aren't nearly as homogenous on the male figure as they are on the female one.

Unless I've missed your point of course.
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Old 08-03-2011, 08:50 PM   #53
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If you think there is anyone in the world who could have a physique like Superman's, Batman's, or any of the other DC heroes (Marvel were a little better with scrawny heroes, Spidey for example), then you're frankly kinda delusional. The point with the Joker, the Riddler etc. is a good one. The only people who aren't represented as continuations of the Olympic strongman fantasy are villains. To be heroic in the DC universe, you have to be barrel-chested, rippling biceps, 10-pack abs etc. And for your point on women being buff in comics, generally they are:

http://comicrelated.com/artwork/batgirl1.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_3UGpPTDc_A..._WOMAN_164.jpg

http://maidofmight.net/images/superg...l%203%2001.jpg

http://www.gayleague.com/wordpress/w...w2-197x300.jpg

http://nsa03.casimages.com/img/2008/...0640314464.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_r6_UZx-UDZ...0/hawkgirl.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...wkwomanRTW.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1...isis_large.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...girllegion.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KWR_gvxCig...ntha_super.jpg

I mean, fuck, have of them have six-packs.
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Old 08-03-2011, 09:10 PM   #54
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One thing I don't like about women's muscles though it that it comes and goes, you know? Like to me, Wonder Woman should be muscular and Xena like.

There's better examples I can use but I'm kinda sick in bed right now and don't want to go down to the scanner to scan my comics, but just as an example, Terry Dodson draws Wonder Woman as looking pretty strong:



In my copy of The Circle Dodson does the artwork for it, except for the last issue where Wonder Woman goes to fight aliens, for that they have a different artist, Bernard Chang, who I think made her a little more buff as his Wonder Woman run went on, but its a huge difference after Dodson's art.



She seems so much smaller and more mouse faced. Seems worse on the new Justice League variant cover:



It doesn't bother me much that supermen with superhuman strength are super muscular, but Wonder Woman is supposed to be as strong as Superman, you know?

Not saying they shouldn't have scrawny male heroes other than Robin, but at least strength can be a superpower. Tits and ass, not so much.
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Old 08-03-2011, 09:22 PM   #55
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The exaggerated tits is partly to do with an industry dominated by males and marketing to males making lowest common denominator fap material, but it's also a practical issue. A lot of these women are very muscular. If you look at the thighs in particular, they're built like Ronnie Coleman. For a woman to be flat-chested with such a muscular physique is pretty impossible. Either she has big, firm tits or big pecs, otherwise she will be mad out of proportion. I'm willing to accept that it's mostly boyish stupidity, but there is a practical concern also.
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Old 08-03-2011, 09:40 PM   #56
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Not necessarily, Stephanie Brown's Batgirl is on the small side and Cassandra Cain used to be fairly flat, Kate Kane is on the smaller side (though not consistently, but to be fair she's a new character and her look has been changed since she was introduced) Zatanna has dancer's legs but that's about it, and Melaka Fray looks fine being both muscular and flat.

Also I even googled "women bodybuilders" and some of them look pretty damn flat XD Its an extreme, but I've seen women with muscles with all kinds of boob sizes without really thinking they look out of proportion. And all DCU heroines are conventionally thin and not really huge body builders, you get artists now and then who like to depict them that way but like I said, its not consistent.
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Old 08-03-2011, 10:03 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCC View Post
If you think there is anyone in the world who could have a physique like Superman's, Batman's, or any of the other DC heroes (Marvel were a little better with scrawny heroes, Spidey for example), then you're frankly kinda delusional. The point with the Joker, the Riddler etc. is a good one. The only people who aren't represented as continuations of the Olympic strongman fantasy are villains. To be heroic in the DC universe, you have to be barrel-chested, rippling biceps, 10-pack abs etc. And for your point on women being buff in comics, generally they are:
Alright, you have half a point. BUT, I digress that the super physique of the heroes isn't done intentionally to make girls wet like the drawings done of the female heroes are generally done to make the boys hard. They're drawn that way to IMPRESS THE GUYS. Which brings us right back to the point that their objectification of the sexes isn't based on a fair and equal distribution of unreality, but geared towards misogynistic power fantasies.

Women are sexy to titillate. Men are buff to be awesome. Both of these standards is evidence of a misogynistic attitude in the art.
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Old 08-03-2011, 11:43 PM   #58
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Thats a good point. And because I love flooding the thread with pictures, Superman now looks scary powerful:



Starfire, well....aside from her tits....look at those cute little biceps!

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Old 08-04-2011, 12:23 AM   #59
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Also, while I'm trampling all over a franchise that I grew up on, I want to bitch about Green Lantern getting a sequel. Yes, he's getting a sequel despite the fact they haven't made their money back and it was a box office disappointment.

Did you know they didn't go ahead with plans to make a Batgirl animated film after Wonder Woman's animated film didn't have great initial sales? Because since WW didn't do well, it meant no woman character would do well, right? But that doesn't apply to The Green Lantern. GAH.
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Old 08-04-2011, 12:27 AM   #60
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But Batgirl is way cool. What the fuck?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Spkb5...eature=related


Also, I'm just linking this because it's a pretty catchy remix of the Dark Knight Joker theme.
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Old 08-09-2011, 07:29 PM   #61
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So ... there's a new checklist of the September New 52 launch titles:

http://www.aquamanshrine.com/2011/08...dc-comics.html

Still disappointed.
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Old 08-09-2011, 08:00 PM   #62
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I'll check out a few of them, definitely going to be following Batwoman and Wonder Woman, probably Detective Comics, might at least try the new Batgirl, I'm not happy Babs is de-aged and back to being Batgirl but I really do like Gail Simone so I'll check it out for that reason. Will Stephanie be Spoiler again? I wouldn't hate it so much if she and Cassandra Cain got their own comic, that would be sweet.

I'm kinda interested in Voodoo, but I think like what I plan to do with Superman I'll have to flip through it in the store to make up my mind. Don't think I'll read the new Birds Of Prey, its just not going to be the same
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Old 08-12-2011, 12:33 AM   #63
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I really hope you are talking about following Batman, which will be written by the guy currently doing detective; and not Detective, which will be written by the guy that brought back a one time concentration camp survivor from a seventies comic and turned him into a regenerating supervillain.
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Old 08-12-2011, 12:48 AM   #64
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I don't think I've read anything by this guy before, what villain was that?
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Old 08-12-2011, 08:10 PM   #65
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The original Reaper, not the one from year 2, mind. That writter, Tony Daniel, is fun in a silly-action-and-explosions-movie kind of way, but not amazingly good, and has a tendency to bring back characterts for no logical reason or respect for their previous characterizations. (Reaper, Two-Face's wife, Falcone's son, he even creted a catgirl).
Anyways, I like the other dude, Snyder, a lot more. He is the first writter that I've seen that seems to be influenced by Morrison's take but that at the same time is original and wants to go further. Plus, right now he is writting a mini that is pretty much a gigantic team-up between Dick Grayson, Tim Drake, Cass Cain and Damian Wayne, that makes me like him too.
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Old 08-20-2011, 09:23 AM   #66
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Io9 has a nice article about the blog DC Fifty-Too, which seeks to rectify the problem of so many heroes being left out of the New DC by featuring 52 different books you won't be seeing on stands.

"DC Fifty-Too" imagines a DC Universe where the most obscure superheroes are A-listers

[edit] Here's the direct link to the blog.
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Old 08-20-2011, 11:00 AM   #67
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I've got boxes of comics, mostly old Marvel U and a bunch of independents (do they still make Elfquest comics anymore?) I inherited the collection form my dad, but I just don't like the new stuff mostly. Guess I should wander into my local shop (if there still is one) and see what's new now.

Suggestions? :: ducks to avoid the deludge of must-read pitches ::
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Old 08-20-2011, 11:51 AM   #68
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Interesting note - I just finished the trade paperback version of Justice League: The Tornado's Path by Brad Meltzer (man, I like his writing) and Ed Benes. At the back of the book there's a section where Meltzer and Benes comment on some of their favorite panels from the story.

In the comment on the first panel (titled Icons) Meltzer says, "... The one problem? Ed Benes loves to draw his women ... er ... buxomish. Never in my entire adult life did I ever think that my first art comment back would be, 'Can you make Wonder Woman's breasts smaller?' He did. And then I again asked, 'Uh ... smaller than that.' And thus page one was built."

And Benes reply? "Ahahah! I know that I gave Brad and Eddie a hard time drawing Diana's breasts correctly. But what can I say? I've drawn women like that for years and years, and old habits die hard!"

I suspect there's a lot of that going around.

I really do wish I could read more comics plotted by Meltzer though. Both "Identity Crisis" and "Tornado's Path" impressed me with their detail and how deeply into DC mythology Brad is able to go to pull the threads together when he weaves these tales. I might have to start reading his novels next.

And based on what I'm seeing from the New 52, I may have to keep going back to previous trade paperback reprints for my DC entertainment.
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Old 08-20-2011, 01:31 PM   #69
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Spooky Spencer If you want suggestions, tell us a little about what you like, genres (horror, supernatural, sci-fi, crime, war, superheroes), or if it's the last, some heroes you like.
Ben Lahnger I can't recall who, but a writer said in an interview that if he wanted a female character to have normal sized breasts, he had to specify in the script that she was very small breasted.
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Old 08-20-2011, 07:26 PM   #70
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DC Women Kicking Ass is saying that Azzarello reports that Wonder Woman will only have a soft reboot, so her history is going to stay mostly the same (THANK GOD, I love the born from clay and prayer thing), no pants, and its going to be now a horror comic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azzarello
But it’s not going to be a superhero book. I can guarantee you that, it’s not a superhero book. It’s a horror book.

...We’re pushing the envelope with this one. I firmly believe that that’s what this character needs right now.
I love horror comics, but I'm a little apprehensive about that. Although at least with the rating WW has its probably not going to be like gore porn or anything.
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:06 PM   #71
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Quote:
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Spooky Spencer If you want suggestions, tell us a little about what you like, genres (horror, supernatural, sci-fi, crime, war, superheroes), or if it's the last, some heroes you like.
This stuff is going to sound old (hey, it's what I've got lots of), so:

Elfquest (love the classic graphic novels, less big on the future stuff except maybe Jink)
Teen Titans (first Wildabeast appearances, loved these)
WILDCats (have 'em, read 'em, meh... well, Grifter was pretty cool)
Spawn (original run, pretty cool but didn't seem to go anywhere)
X-Men (LOVE the Dark Phoenix saga)
Excalibur (the entire cross-time caper series, Kitty Pryde is my favorite)
Lenore (fun stuff...!)
Tales from the Crypt (love these and the other horror comics)
Astro City (these. totally. rock. especially The Confessor)
Bunch of old Spideys and other random stuff, all 18 copies of the 'V' comic series (again, meh), a few What Ifs (What If Iron Man Was Stuck in the Time of King Arthur, awesome)

I also have some Indie series, like Ghost (loved it) and Mantra (not so much).
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Old 08-22-2011, 03:27 PM   #72
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I'll think of a few recommendations soon, just overtired today and kinda brain dead.

But, good interview with J.H. Williams about Batwoman: http://www.newsarama.com/comics/dcnu...an-110822.html

I'm still excited for her and it looks like DC can't ruin her for me with this reboot, the delay for Batwoman #1 cost us Reeder but it looks like she'll be working on Batwoman in #6.

Also, surprising comments from Grant Morrison about r.ape in comics: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/ne...omics-20110822

I honestly never really thought about Alan Moore having a lot of r.ape in his books.
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Old 08-22-2011, 08:33 PM   #73
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I think that's a bit of an exaggeration (I've read other books by Moore that did not have any rrape scenes), but it doesn't surprise me to think of Moore having a lot of rrape in his books. Not because he's misogynistic but because he frequently explores a lot of violent and fucked-up themes.
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Old 08-22-2011, 08:47 PM   #74
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He's saying he's not misogynist but his penchant for writing rrape scenes is problematic. I'm trying to think if anyone was ***** in V For Vendetta, other than the attempted rrape of Evey, and its kinda vague about whether Barbara Gordon was ***** by the Joker, but what he did to her is one of the first examples I can think of when I think of the "women in refrigerators" tropes.

And I was definitely uncomfortable with the invisible man in League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen, I don't recall that his spree as a serial rapist was treated as something horrific and fucked up. Was more disturbing to see him grope Mina in the movie though and its just like "Oh, you scamp!"
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Old 08-22-2011, 09:24 PM   #75
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Spencer:

Preacher
RIP Batman
Y The Last Man
Sandman
Batman: Arkham Asylum (A Serious House on a Serious Earth)
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