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Old 08-22-2011, 11:42 PM   #76
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X-Men and X-Calibur were written by the same guy, Chris Claremont, so I think you should look for more of his X stuff. He's got X-Men Forever going on right now, although I'm not sure if it's good.
Also, since you like Kitty Pryde, read Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-men.
Based on Astro City, I'd say Marvels, I liked that writers JLA/Avengers crossover. Some other books i think are in that vein are All-Stars Superman, Supreme and Kingdom Come.
Cliched as fuck, I know, but since you liked Lenore try anything by Johnen Vasquez. Squee is probably the more similar to Lenore.
Some horror-ish stuff I like: Sandman, Lucifer, actually most of the 90's Vertigo stuff: and anything by Junji Ito, even if it is technically manga.
I also support most of AshleyO 's suggestions, except maybe for RIP, there are probably other Batman books that are better and also easier to get into the character that it.
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Old 08-23-2011, 12:11 AM   #77
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Shit, I forgot Lucifer.
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Old 08-28-2011, 08:26 PM   #78
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Okay, several places on the internet, including Newsarama, are reporting on yesterday's DC Comics New 52 panel at Fan Expo Canada. Here's the Newsarama link:

Fan Expo '11: DC COMICS - THE NEW 52 Panel (JSA Returns!)

The three highlights I want to mention are as follows:

1) James Robinson confirmed that he is working on a new Justice Society project with artist Nicola Scott, and that the parallel world Earth-2 will make a return. The crowd erupted into thunderous applause. - First bit of good news to come out of this ill-conceived marketing ploy, as far as I'm concerned.

2) Brian Azzarello spoke with gusto about Wonder Woman #1, written by him with art by Cliff Chiang. He reiterated the horror focus of the story. “This is not the Wonder Woman that you'll recognize from before besides the costume,” he said. “I've said this is a horror book and I'm sticking to that.” Brooding panels by Chiang were shown to the crowd, including a nighttime shot of Wonder Woman fending off, presumably, an intruder in her bedroom, reinforced the statement. - Sounds dumb to me. Let's hope they don't have her fighting off tentacles.

3) Dan DiDio said one of the stupidest things (in a long, long list - I've been counting) I've heard him say: Frankenstein is sci-fi, with a little black humor introduced by way of the title monster's role as the best straight man in comics, “because he literally has no sense of humor,” says DiDio. “You put all these funny situations around him and all he does is grunt.” - My god, the man has no clue.
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Old 08-28-2011, 08:51 PM   #79
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Good suggestions! Although that bit about Wonder Woman, tentacles, and Frankenstein kinda makes me glad I'm not supporting a lot of titles right now.
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Old 08-28-2011, 08:55 PM   #80
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It doesn't look too too broody:





I'm kinda thinking they're emphasizing HORROR to try to make the comic sound more edgy and grown up. I think Wonder Woman does have a bit of an image problem (sometimes I think the writers don't even take her seriously, with exception of course), I mean most of the discussion about her reboot is focused around what she's wearing, so it'll be interesting to see this revamp.

I like Wonder Woman's personality and attitude more than anything, and so far it doesn't look like they're going to make her a broody horror novel survivor, you know? Seems like its going to be Wonder Woman taking on some scary looking villains while remaining badass and good humoured.

She and Batwoman are the only two I'm not really nervous about.

Oh, is the nightmare one they're talking about a panel before this one?

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Old 08-29-2011, 04:51 AM   #81
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It doesn't look too too broody:

Why the hells is she smiling like that in the last panel?
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Old 08-29-2011, 07:15 AM   #82
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Saya, I think maybe you just WANT to like it a little too much. As you said, sometimes the writers don't take her seriously ... and this sounds like a case of wanting to reinvent her so badly and yet now knowing how to do it, so that it comes off sounding desperate (even more desperate, unbelievably, than the most recent reinvention.) And those panels you've posted do NOT inspire confidence as far as I'm concerned.

I don't see the cause of your optimism, unless you're suggesting that these people that you have so much confidence in just don't actually know the meaning of the word "horror", but are capable of creating a good piece of fiction.

I predict we're all going to be wishing Gail Simone was writing this title a few months down the line.
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Old 08-29-2011, 07:20 AM   #83
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It looks like WW is going to eat Mr. Chicken Legs then have Pixie 'Do for dessert.
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Old 08-29-2011, 12:45 PM   #84
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Why is fighting zombies and protecting Pixie Do out of character for Wonder Woman? I stuck with her and enjoyed the hell out of the comic when she was fighting gorillas, then formed a gorilla army and fought Nazis.

They already stressed that its a soft reboot. Her origin isn't changing, it doesn't look like her character is changing (at least not from the nicely written Wonder Woman, she's devoid of personality sometimes. But look, smiles! Confidence! Not darkly brooding broods).

In another interview Azzarello said that the reason why its now a horror comic is mostly because if you look at Greek mythology, it isn't very nice. It can be pretty dark and gritty sometimes. What seems to be rebooting is her villains and settings more so than herself. I don't know who she's fighting in #1 besides zombies but in #2 she's fighting the goddess of discord.

They could have done this pretty badly. We could have started off on Paradise Island again and have Steve visit AGAIN and they could have done what the TV show planned to do and have her pine for Steve "the way Carrie pines for Big". You know, so the kiddies can relate. Because thats all wimmin do.

But no, now her enemies are scary and weird looking and she's fighting in horror settings. Its not rated T for Teen, so I'm not really worried like I am about Catwoman's potential torture porn. I might be thinking in manga terms but really I just expect xxxholic levels of horror.
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Old 08-29-2011, 01:02 PM   #85
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You know, so the kiddies can relate. Because thats all wimmin do.
Ha! You said wimmin!

I've read the old paperbacks with the original Wonder Woman comics where Diana had to win the Amazonian Olympics to get her stuff or find the parts of her invisible plane (which made no sense at all). I even remember when she fought off invaders from Mars who used to say "Lo! It's the Woman of Wonder!" and how she used to get tied up every issue by thugs wearing reporter hats.

Wonder Woman has come a long way from pinup to to empowerment, but shouldn't she be Amazon tall (six foot tall minimum) and above things like needing a man to take care of her? I think they should draw her strong and make her look capable. The horror comic angle might work if they stick with Greek monsters, but if they insist on Frankenstein or zombies it's going to have to try really hard not to be stupid.

Is that supposed to be a zombie she's carrying?
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Old 08-29-2011, 01:08 PM   #86
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Now that I look at it closely those aren't zombie feet. So I dunno.

Her creator was a psychologist I do believe (and invented the lie detector!) and he was into bondage, obviously. I read a blog a few weeks ago that talked about how Frank Miller wanted to write a Wonder Woman book about her in bondage, and because its Miller it would have been about humiliation and sexualizing her, but that wasn't the original point of the whole bondage thing. He did mean her to be empowering, and while she had a relationship with Steve, it was her civilian identity Diana that loved him, Wonder Woman herself did not. So I'm glad they married him off.

And she hasn't had a man in a long time I don't think. I think the closest we got in current continuity was Nemesis, who was her frequent damsel in distress, he needed her more than she needed him. I think they broke up because WW realized she just wanted to get with him to have a baby, a hot commodity among Amazons.

I thought about it and I think Supernatural (hopefully GOOD Supernatural) would probably better explain what level of horror I'm expecting.
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Old 08-29-2011, 01:20 PM   #87
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I like to go swimmin with bow-legged wimmin and swim between their legs!

Dammit, Saya, quit posting before I can think of something stupid to post!

Also, lie detectors are bullshit and are as likely to give a false positive as a real one.
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Old 08-29-2011, 02:20 PM   #88
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I know, its just a point of interest seeing as WW wields a lasso that forces people to tell the truth, and she symbolizes Truth as part of the DC trinity.
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Old 09-05-2011, 07:14 PM   #89
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There has been an incredible outcry about the number of women in the DCU and their handling. People have complained there is only one female character in issue No. 1. When Wonder Woman does make the scene, is there any way to win these people over?

There were no Korean characters in the first issue either, or gay and lesbian characters! It’s a tough line. You're trying to entertain the audience and it's not about creating didactic stories. When Wonder Woman shows up it will be very momentous and each character will get their place in the sun and you'll see the value of their contribution to the team. It’s a story. You’ve got to let it breathe and open up.
http://www.salon.com/entertainment/f...02/dc_reboots/

Sigh. I have a lot of love for Jim Lee and that probably won't change, but its depressing that he's talking about having comics dominated by white men, while lumping women together with statistic minorities (does he know that women make up half the population? Although I think they might actually outnumber men a little bit?), well, leaving them out and then waiting for the token female/gay/Asian to have their time in the spot light is just good story telling! GAWD.
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Old 09-05-2011, 07:23 PM   #90
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I am disappoint ... more.
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Old 09-05-2011, 08:16 PM   #91
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Just so I get this.

I can't write a story about three little blue creatures because I may offend all the red ones, yellow ones, and a green one with both sex organs?

Or if I'm telling the story of a caveman, I can't make him kill a hungry raptor because it's cruelty to animals?

I know there are people who think that every story have characters that look like the crew of a Star Trek show, but isn't it more unrealistic to have a bunch of streetwise rappers sitting in the back of an Alabama ice house full of tattooed bikers listening to opera music for the sake of not offending someone? Whatever story you're trying to tell in that setting is going to end badly (likely for whoever put on the opera music).

My English teacher says "Write what you know." I can read all about a Buddhist monk, but I don't think I know enough to make a character out of one.

Am I making any sense here or overthinking this?
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Old 09-05-2011, 08:27 PM   #92
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You are missing the point. When one of the two major comic companies, one of the two majority controlling interests of an entire media format, decide to create few roles for strong lead female characters, it's a big disappointment. Same is true everytime I see hollywood veering away from having strong female leads.

Women are more than 50% of the humans on the planet ... they want to have stories told about them too, and that's understandable.
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Old 09-05-2011, 08:39 PM   #93
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Okay, so if these guys aren't telling those stories, who is?

I think you are kinda making my point for me with the "women are more than 50% of the humans on the planet." Just because these are the two biggest comic companies out there, they have an obligation to hire people to write stories with female leads?

I guess a better question is, do those comics sell? If they do, wouldn't there be more of them? And if the one's they make don't sell well, why would anyone want them to make more that don't sell or aren't very good?
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Old 09-05-2011, 08:50 PM   #94
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They do sell. Batgirl's The Flood was a NYT bestseller when everyone outside of the Batverse was doing shit.

Thing is, when a female comic or movie doesn't sell well, everyone assumes no one wants to watch women characters so they get cut. They decided not to make a Batgirl animated movie after the Wonder Woman animated movie didn't have good initial sales.

Meanwhile, the Green Lantern live action movie did SHIT, and he still gets a sequel.

They aren't writing what they know. They don't know what its like to be Greek goddesses or crime fighters or aliens. If writing for a psycho vigilante who can't get over his parent's death is easy and profitable, they can't just imagine what it might be like to have tits?

Besides, some of the best female comics were written by men, Rucka did a fantastic job with Wonder Woman and turned Batwoman into a seriously kickass character.

Its not about quotas, its about intentionally tokenizing a part of the population who is by no stretch of the imagination a minority.
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Old 09-05-2011, 09:05 PM   #95
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Also, first wave of new 52 comes out tomorrow! YES I KNOW JUSTICE LEAGUE IS ALREADY OUT YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.

Might swing by the comic book store and check out Batgirl, I wasn't really planning on it but I do like Simone, and I am curious how they're going to do the whole "she got over paralysis! She's fine now!" And whether Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown were still Batgirls (Cain I will be especially mad about. She was awesome and had the coolest costume.)

Might check out Action Comics as well and see what they did to Superman. Of the titles I intend to read for a while, still gotta wait til the 14th, boo.
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Old 09-06-2011, 04:27 AM   #96
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I guess a better question is, do those comics sell? If they do, wouldn't there be more of them? And if the one's they make don't sell well, why would anyone want them to make more that don't sell or aren't very good?
You're assuming simple market forces will get the job done. It's not the only factor. As Saya demonstrated, when a well-written story comes out with a strong female lead, it sells very well. The problem is, most of the writers don't know how to write female leads well, and at the end of the day a story sells more based on how well it is written, not just on who it is about.

The same dynamic can be seen in movies. There are huge African American and Latino audiences for movies in the United States, but very rarely does someone come out and produce good films that interest those markets. Tyler Perry has created a whole market segment by himself, and Hollywood has noticed ... but they seem incapable of duplicating his success.

It's not just as simple as thinking, "Hey, there are a lot of female readers out there. Let's make some chick comics now." They have to find creators who are up to the task. One of the problems with the current DC plan is they've reassigned some of their strongest talents at writing good female leads to writing male dominated comics.
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Old 09-06-2011, 08:10 AM   #97
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And apparently Renee Montoya might not be The Question anymore.

Sigh. Was thinking about being her for Halloween too.
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Old 09-06-2011, 08:22 AM   #98
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The problem is, most of the writers don't know how to write female leads well, and at the end of the day a story sells more based on how well it is written, not just on who it is about.
That makes sense. I think with comics it's 50% story and 50% art to make me want to have it. I hate when there's a cool cover outside, then you open it up and it looks a bunch a first graders with crayons drew it.

The one thing I've noticed about the comics with women is the complexity, which I get. I mean, Batman focuses on whatever the Joker's going to do next and Catwoman is a distraction, but then you get Catwoman's point of view and she's got a lot more things going on and seems to be distracted by a lot of it (but still gets it all done).

Of the ones mentioned here, what do you guys think makes those lady superheroes awesome (other than boobs) when compared to a good comic with a male superhero? What are the men-only writers getting wrong or not getting when they write for them?

Also, what do you think of Witchblade, the first 8 comics, specifically. I always thought those were pretty good.
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Old 09-06-2011, 08:45 AM   #99
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Honestly all they're getting wrong is that they either write them devoid of personality, or they assume women are alien creatures. I said in another thread that I think Tarantino would actually be good to write a WW movie, and to justify that, I think he writes female characters fantastically well. He's not totally gender blind, but he knows women are actually human beings who aren't very different from men at all.

I also think Batwoman's Elegy is a really good example of this. Written by men, Batwoman is a young rich lesbian kicked out of the army for being gay and trying to figure out what she's going to do with her life, now that she can't serve in the army like her parents did. You think there's not a whole lot there the writers can relate to, but they did really well. She's probably the only gothy superhero right now (without going overboard with it), very tough, and human without being overly dramatic and whiny.

Its also fun running the Bechdel test. To pass, they have to have at least two female characters who talk to each other about something other than a man. Its amazing how many fail even at that.
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:08 AM   #100
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That Bechdel test is clever. Now I'm trying to think of the last horror film I watched that passed it.
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