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Old 09-25-2011, 04:17 AM   #126
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Spooky, nice Castle reference. That's one of the reasons I watch the show too ... it portrays the male and female leads as equals who respect each other (although Beckett likes to joke about Castle being a writer to give him a hard time, when it comes down to using his intuitive and "creative" forensic skills, she takes nearly everything he says very seriously.) They are given (for the most part) mature dialog. And the show does a good job of showing an adult, flirtatious relationship without sexualizing either character or pandering. It reminds me a bit of Moonlighting before that show ran off the rails.

Saya, I wonder if you cut some slack to Batwoman just because it's primarily portraying a lesbian character who rejects men's advances? The artwork I'm seeing seems pretty sexualized (with the small exception of not appearing to exaggerate any of the women's breast size.)
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Old 09-25-2011, 07:09 AM   #127
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Eh? Whatchyo readin?

Yeah, I like it because she's not with men, we all know how I despise men.

In #1 Bette is usually seen getting dressed and undressed, which annoyed me, but Kate herself really doesn't seem sexualized to me. In her underwear once or twice, but Bette blocks any side boob that we might have seen. It isn't titillating, she's just in her underwear a bit. Her costume is tight? But that's true of every Bat- person.

Its like the new Wonder Woman. There was a moment of slight side boob but once she got in her costume, her costume doesn't even show cleavage. Zola is in her underwear the whole time but again it doesn't seem to be meant to titillate, she was honest to god surprised at home by Hermes and then some centaurs. It seems more to speak to her vulnerability and reminds me of a survival horror game.
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Old 09-25-2011, 09:39 AM   #128
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Ben, I've also been watching "Farscape" at my dad's insistence (who lured me in with promises of Muppets in space). I'm only three seasons in, but every time Crichton and Aeryn stop fighting with each other and start working together, any fool can see they'll get together (if one of them doesn't die first). Dad says by the last season they give in completely and are even cooler together, then we're going to watch the movie.
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Old 09-25-2011, 06:02 PM   #129
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I'm gonna side with Ben here, the artwork in Batwoman was extremly sexualized, it even was so way back when she was in detective.
I've seen JH doing non-sexualized women, so I've always believed Rucka actually asked him to do it like that, even in the really inapropiate scenes to indicate what a creepy trend it is. Hell, I remeber a lot of people thought her fight with Alice in Elegy was extremly sexual.
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Old 09-25-2011, 06:19 PM   #130
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Oh, forgot about Alice's panty shots. Yeah, she was sexualized, and she was only shown in one frame in #1 in a flashback so its hard to say whether that's going to continue. But other than that, and again Bette sometimes being in a state of undress, there's nothing I can think of in the new issue.

Mind you this also came out recently:





So maybe I'm willing to overlook a frame or two of Batwoman sitting around in her bra a bit more easily.
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Old 09-25-2011, 06:37 PM   #131
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This page made me think it

It's nowhere near as terrible as Batman-penetrating-catwoman, hell, I don't think it's terrible at all, it might just be Williams trying to make a fluid action panel, but having her ass as the focus of the panel, having her jump in the specific way that it shows both her ass and tits, the way the motion implies her tits bouncing, etc, it looks sexualized to me.
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Old 09-25-2011, 06:37 PM   #132
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(Wow! That looks pretty porny to me. In fact, in the entire recent 26 issue Power Girl run, there isn't a single frame that looks that sexualized.)

So it's all relative, huh? Oh, well.

Still not seeing anything that makes me want to jump on the new DC. Which is good, because I don't need to be spending money on that right now anyway.
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Old 09-25-2011, 06:46 PM   #133
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This page made me think it

It's nowhere near as terrible as Batman-penetrating-catwoman, hell, I don't think it's terrible at all, it might just be Williams trying to make a fluid action panel, but having her ass as the focus of the panel, having her jump in the specific way that it shows both her ass and tits, the way the motion implies her tits bouncing, etc, it looks sexualized to me.
I don't think the ass is really the focal point, her legs are hiding most of it. It would be hella sexualized without the boots, I think, but I think the way they added that was pretty tasteful and intentional. Tumblr is being an ass but there was a similar moment in Birds Of Prey with Black Canary, her ass could easily have been the focal point but again, boot in the way. I think the way her boobs are always drawn in costume is just because in #1 anyway it seems she doesn't wear a bra when going out. And with the experience I had at a feminist gathering a few months ago, it seems pretty common for queer ladies to not wear bras, heh.

If I were to compare her costume to anyone, I'd say she's on par with Nightwing. His costume is tight and I think intended so to be attractive to female fans, but nothing bad.

And yeah, Ben, the Bat and Cat scene was terrible. Like, it shows them fucking with their costumes on and its like...wouldn't the teeth of her zipper be a HUGE danger to him? Ouch.

But when you can get into comics, so far I'd recommend Animal Man the most. The reboot was definitely good for him.
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Old 09-25-2011, 07:18 PM   #134
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Nope. Legs not preventing it from being sexualized. Legs just preventing it from being outright pandering.
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Old 09-25-2011, 07:26 PM   #135
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So, can a woman's ass and breasts be shown in the same frame without it being sexualized?
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Old 09-25-2011, 07:45 PM   #136
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It depends on how they're displayed and how she's posed, obviously.
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Old 09-25-2011, 08:12 PM   #137
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Might help to see the whole frame, but Batwoman and Bette are dashing and jumping over a building in the the whole thing:



Hydrodyssodia just cut out a part of the picture, its not the only thing going on. And that's not half the page, on the top part there's Kate and Bette getting dressed, so there's Bette's cleavage and underwear showing, and I'd say that would be a far more sexualized thing than Batwoman swinging over an edge. Which is also why I don't get the whole "her tits are bouncing" thing, you can't see her tits at all until that last jump.

If you can't draw women in any way that shows form or that might bear resemblance to a sexual position to a person looking for it, its pretty limiting.
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Old 09-25-2011, 11:58 PM   #138
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You have your perspective of that Buttwoman drawing, I have mine.
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Old 09-26-2011, 06:08 AM   #139
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Yes, I know. You're completely determined to hate everything about the reboot even though I was completely right about Wonder Woman, and Batwoman was supposed to come out earlier but had her release delayed to match up with the reboot, so she's one of the few that are not affected. And you'd like to invalidate everything I said about comics being oversexualized but pointing out that Batwoman may have her moments of cheesecake? Do you really think Didio would put his stamp of approval on the superhero version of Dykes To Watch Out For?
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Old 09-26-2011, 08:20 AM   #140
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I'm not actually saying all that, but way to generalize.

By the way, I have heard from other sources about how good Animal Man is; your suggestion of that title is well taken. So there is at least one comic out of the group I may be interested in. However, the rationale for the reboot was/is extremely flawed. The deletions and changes to a rich and deeply threaded continuity (previous history re-jiggering notwithstanding) is much more destructive than constructive. So yes, I have a tremendous bias against it. I'm be no means alone in that opinion.

I'm chuckling over the notion that the woman who once told me this ...



... is definitely WANK would also say that this ...



MAY be "cheesecake"!

I'm saying that in the entire recent two-year, 26 issue run of Power Girl (a series that was ripe with potential for pandering and sexualization, as has been apparent in the character's previous history) there was not one single panel that was as blatantly sexualized as that one frame of Batwoman. In fact, the Power Girl writers went to some great lengths to make some strong feminist statements and to satirize/criticize the industry for it's increasing sexualizing of female characters.
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Old 09-26-2011, 02:56 PM   #141
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Again, you're taking a small part of a big frame that was blown up, and Farrah's nipples are kinda showing. That was the whole point of her taking that picture. Batwoman is at least doing something and is in the middle of an action panel.

Power Girl isn't oversexualized? She's a golden example of Gag Boobs, and there was a huge controversy in 2009 when DC tried to take the whole "ITS SEXUALLY EMPOWERING" explanation for her costume, when it is and always was meant to be cheesecake:

http://jezebel.com/5412075/costumes-...nder-in-comics
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Old 09-26-2011, 04:39 PM   #142
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Just to cover myself, while that image was taken from a larger splash page, I think if JH constructed his comics in a more traditional way that would've been a single panel, except adding the rest of Bette on the top.
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Old 09-27-2011, 08:51 PM   #143
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Quote:
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Power Girl isn't oversexualized? She's a golden example of Gag Boobs, and there was a huge controversy in 2009 when DC tried to take the whole "ITS SEXUALLY EMPOWERING" explanation for her costume, when it is and always was meant to be cheesecake:
Yeah, I dealt with that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger View Post
(a series that was ripe with potential for pandering and sexualization, as has been apparent in the character's previous history)
... and by focusing on that you denied the validity of the rest of my statement.

*sigh*

Okay, I'm done needling you about this. I'm glad you've found some comics in the New 52 that hold some promise for you.

Some people have taken the approach that DC has made this change and there's nothing to be done for it but roll with the changes and make the best of it. Others have said that DC did this massive injustice to the ongoing continuity of some beloved characters, in some cases bringing intriguing story lines to a screeching halt, all in the name of chasing more money ... and one way to protest is by denying them that money. I'm in that faction, and I'm voting with my wallet. There are plenty of other great reads out there.
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Old 09-28-2011, 11:54 AM   #144
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Thing is, they own these characters, and they are in huge trouble financially if they don't change things up. Its like what they were saying at the end of The People vs George Lucas, this is their work, their creation, not ours. I love to critique the shit out of it, and they do have to show appreciation to their fans (which is why Didio throwing tantrums at critique doesn't fly), but they had to try something new. Some things deservedly fell flat on its face, and some things are genuinely really good and the reboot was probably the best thing for them, Wonder Woman and Animal Man, for example. WW has been pretty bad lately prior to reboot. And I haven't read Supergirl yet, its supposed to be pretty good, but its about time she's taken seriously and starts over, there has been way too many Supergirls, its confusing. So cleaning up that mess isn't such a bad thing.

Overall, so far I'd say the comics I was a big fan of prior to the reboot haven't been badly affected at all, and even benefited greatly from it. I understand why Flash fans and Superman fans would be super upset.

Except Catwoman, there was a time when she was my favourite DC character. But I'm not supporting that with my money. But I'm not going to not support good comics just because some other ones are trash.
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Old 09-28-2011, 01:56 PM   #145
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Well, part of the problem is ongoing story lines were thrown out with the reboot. It's like the season where the TV show Dallas started losing viewers and tried to right the ship by claiming the previous season was all a dream, thereby starting off with a new storyline. DC deserves criticism for abandoning plots that people were invested in, or squeezing others that were meant to wrap up in 3-4 issues in one comic (Nightwing, for example.) If that happened with a TV series or a series of movies or books, there'd be just as much criticism (if not more) regardless of their financial problems.

And as far as HAVING to make a change to correct their financial situation, perhaps DC should take a lesson from Netflix's recent debacle, which has caused their CEO to issue multiple public apologies. There's no doubt Netflix had to make a change ... the problem is HOW they went about it.

Now, a couple of points relating to what the reboot has done badly ... specifically regarding Catwoman and Starfire.

Here's an article from author Michelle Lee, who lets her 7-year-old daughter speak to the issue. The post also contains links to critical articles from Comics Alliance, Andrew Wheeler and Ms. Snarky ... all are worth reading.

And finally, this comic from Shortpacked! speaks volumes:

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Old 09-28-2011, 02:12 PM   #146
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The thing about Starfire was that her comic book incarnation is a lot older than her Teen Titan incarnation, the cartoon show changed the character completely, its not really the same person. I was first introduced to her through Teen Titans too and when I came across her in the comics, I lost all interest in her, before the reboot. She's all boobs and ribs and its hard to see past that, and its been a problem for her for a long time, I think. That and she's been the "naive alien who doesn't understand human things" for several years she's been on Earth. She's sexy and she doesn't know anything, is pretty much a good way to sum her up sometimes.

She slept around, a lot, and would often pose for cheescake. What changed is her attitude about sex. In the previous continuity, she justified sleeping around because she's sharing love, she doesn't like keeping it exclusive to one person. Its not that sex is meaningless, she's polyamorous. It has everything to do with love. So even though I couldn't really enjoy her as she was obviously meant to pander every single panel she's in, I could see why people like her personality, she was very loving and passionate.

The change now is that she apparently doesn't remember the names of people she slept with, and even though her relationship with Dick is canon, he means nothing to her now. And she says "love has nothing to do with it." What there was to like about her personality is gone and all we have left is the pandering.
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Old 09-28-2011, 05:03 PM   #147
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I know this is kind of subjective, and I mostly read Batman, but exactly how many good storylines were cut short by the re-boot? Only one I can think of was Hine's Batman and Robin one; finishing Tony Daniel's and Winick's Batman ones felt like shooting a dieing animal, they were unfocused and more awful than the usual.
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Old 10-02-2011, 11:03 AM   #148
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Actually, do you have anymore info on how this is going to kerfuffle up Batman's history? Apparently, he still has a son? So how is it that Superman is young and starting out but Batman is still old enough to have Robin as his son?

Far as I heard Dick isn't going to return as Robin, which is messed, why does Oracle have to go back to Batgirl?

PS http://dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/ is my new favourite blog, and has an awesome interview with the Batgirl lady who was asking questions about women characters and creators. She got booed and Didio was a total dick to her, but Gail Simone and Paul Cornell went out of their way to talk to her afterwards, which is pretty nice.
I don't follow the comics you guys are talking about. Hell, I don't follow DC or Marvel for that matter.

So what I want to know is:

Why would there be a need to reboot?
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Old 10-02-2011, 08:12 PM   #149
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It's an attempt to make more money by giving people the perception that they can start reading the DC comics now and it will be like getting in on the beginning of the story. They think this gimmick will attract more paying readers.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:00 PM   #150
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Sooooooo not fussy with the Amazons being rebooted as baby killing misandrists.
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