Muslims and Middle Eastern Debate

[edible_eye]

no prob, amigo and amiga.

if i was a praying man, i suppose i'd pray for the families of those affected in the u.k. as it is, i can only hope revenge is on the way.

[MrMaelstrom]

Were vengeance swift, deadly and especially accurate, I'd endorse it as well.

What were those U2 lyrics on Rattle&Hum? ..."instant karma's gonna get him, if I don't get him first"...

But, knowing what I know about "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth", I'll just hope these idiots stop before they're all blind and toothless.

[Binkie]

Fortunately the British are tough skinned and vengeful SOBs. In all likeihood this will not, by any means, be another repeat of Mandrid where the government and people allowed themselves to be intimidated by such cowardly acts of violence. But, only time will tell. The reaction in Britian will certainly be interesting either way.

[Morbideus]

Radical extremism should be classified as a mental disorder.

If anything, this will probably add stregth to the resolve for the War on Terrorism, thereby biting themselves in the butt.

[MrMaelstrom]

Originally Posted by Binkie

Fortunately the British are tough skinned and vengeful SOBs. In all likeihood this will not, by any means, be another repeat of Mandrid where the government and people allowed themselves to be intimidated by such cowardly acts of violence.

Sorry to rain on your parade, Binks, but I believe a little correction is in order.

Soon after the Madrid bombs went off, the (then) right-wing Aznar government issued statements to the media denouncing the attacks as an act of ETA (the Basque terrorist organization).

When all evidence pointed to muslim extremism, the spanish media tried to correct their statements and were pressured by the government not to and to keep the message that it was an act of ETA.

Over 80% of the spanish people are against the participation of spanish forces under present conditions. Their government blatantly lied to them and censored the free media.

I believe they got what they deserved.

And don't forget that the new socialist government DID get the terrorists responsible for Madrid 11/3. They were found out due to the tracking of one of the mobile phones that was used to trigger the explosions to its owner. They were all killed in the flat (apartment) they hid in when they refused to surrender. One of them might still be at large.

[MrMaelstrom]

Lets try also to wrap our heads around the popular concept of "War on terror".

How do you wage a conventional war against civilian underground forces?

You can't. It don't work that way.

Calling rebels insurgents doesn't make them any less deadly.

Calling major military operations doesn't make police actions on foreign countries any less bloody.

Surgical bombings, colateral damage or any other modern politically correct term aside, a dead civilian is a dead civilian (unless he's holding a gun) and a disgusting, revolting affair for any soldier of any nation.

How's the strength and resolve of the people who are constantly being kept in service despite all they were told?
'Cause it ain't hard keeping the "resolve" in the home front when we're thinking of our loved ones back home, but what about those very same loved ones stuck in a nightmare of heat, dust and sand for God knows how many months?
How long does a tour of duty really last?

Coalition? Come on.... Give us the figures on the real umbers of ground troops per allied country and compare them to the 1st Gulf war and you'll see what a coalition really is.

At least Bush Sr. had the sense not to step on toes he might need later on.
No one wants to dance with him and there's no such thing as a unilateral tango.

Point is: this ain't gonna go away or resolve itself through the use of weapons. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a good enough example of this.

What was I ranting about originally?....I kind of get caught in the momentum and then lose track of what I was aiming at....


Ahhhh fuck it...It's not like any of what we type here is gonna make any difference in the real world when it doesn't even make a difference in the opinions of the very people who post on this site...

[Binkie]

How'd you correct me? Let me give you an excerpt from a letter written sometime after the withdrawl of Spanish forces from Iraq:

"Praise be to God who granted us the victory of Madrid and destroyed one of the pillars of the evil Crusader axis...

We gave the Spanish people the choice between war and peace, and they have chosen peace of their own will by electing the party which was against the US coalition in the war against Islam."

That was after the elections. Here's a statement issued after the attacks:

"The peoples of America's allies must pressure their government to withdraw immediately from their alliance with America [in its fight] against terror (Islam)... And if you renounce [fighting us], we too will stop fighting you."

Withdrawl is what they (basically all islamic extremist groups that claimed responsiblity) called for and they surely got it.

Hell... Zapatero, the socialist prime minister coming into office, sat back and blamed the attacks on Aznar, saying it's his fault that these things happened because he supported the Iraq war effort.

Not only did the elections give the group (and all other groups that claimed responsibility) bragging rights, but actually invited them to come right out and brag about it to the world, which energized/encouraged terror groups everywhere to take a stab at this technique of political manipulation through violence. This is what we saw in the letter issued to Britain about withdrawing troops from Iraq.

You may not support the occupation in Iraq, but bombings such as thesse ones will easily be planned from Iraq, should it destabalize as Afghanistan did after the Soviets withdrew. You'll have another terrorist nation where a series of global attacks will originate from. Pulling forces from that country is a great way of supporting that process.



That said, an interesting thing occured while the bombs were going off in London. Apparently Iran has commited to helping train Iraqi forces to fight terrorists and assist in militarily stabalizing the country. That's a big step on a number of levels, considering they were bitter foes in the Iran-Iraq war that lasted for nearly a decade and are also opposed to the US-led war in that country. But now they're stepping up to the plate and assisting the effort there to help bring that country under control.

[AlKilyu]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

Over 80% of the spanish people are against the participation of spanish forces under present conditions. Their government blatantly lied to them and censored the free media.

I believe they got what they deserved.

Can you elaborate on that? I'm not sure I understand who deserved what in your opinion.

[MrMaelstrom]

If the Spanish government (as well as mine) hadn't kissed the US administration's arse and refused to let troops go anywhere without a real call from the UN, there wouldn't have been boms in Madrid.

If the government that sent the troops hadn't lied as well regarding the bomb attacks, they'd probably still be in power (in spite of what they did against the will of the people), so.... they got what they deserved by getting kicked out.

As for the spanish people, had they had their way, there wouldn't have been troops in Iraq under present conditions....therefore, no terrorist attacks against the people represented by an occupying force...capiche?

By withdrawing their troops from Iraq, Spain showed the coalition (USA) that there are ways to do things, and that by doing it the way its being done, not only lends discredit to the coalition, as well as the whole occupying force.

An occupying force responsible for the deaths of thousands of civilians as colateral damage or something we'll never be able to figure out ('cause who can tell sand******s apart anyway?).

An occupying force detaining hundreds of people without chages and without resort to legal cousel.

An occupying force responsible for a reasonably large amount of torture in several of the detaining facilities.


They deserve no credit. Not in my book. It's not that they're risking their lives. It's the fact that they're risking them for nothing but the delay of a pullout that hopefully won't be as bad as Hanoi in the 70's.