Muslims and Middle Eastern Debate

[CptSternn]

Wow, all kindsa new out of there today. What happened to our previous thread on this?

Afghanistan riddled with drug ties

In the past two years, the UN reports that poppy cultivation increased by two-thirds in 2004 to 51.7 million acres. The US estimate was even higher - at 87.5 million acres. Afghanistan now produces 90 percent of the world's opium - most of it ends up on the streets of Europe and Russia as heroin. European officials warn that this fledgling democracy is being undermined as Afghan officials make decisions based on what's good for the drug trade, rather than the electorate....

Binkie - os that the 'positive change' the us has brought? Ever notice every place the us 'helps' ends up as a new haven for drug production (ie. bolivia, columbia, etc)? Also notice how all those drugs get sent back to the states, then the states need more money to fight 'the war on drugs'?

http://news.**********/s/csm/20050513/ts_csm/ograft

Of course it doesnt compare to this...

Karzai plans administrative shake-up after violent anti-US protests

KABUL (AFP) - President Hamid Karzai is planning an administrative shake-up after violent Afghan protests over the alleged desecration of the Koran at Guantanamo Bay left 14 dead and 120 injured, officials said.



Who would have thought pissing on someones religion and torturing their people would cause them to get uspet?

http://news.**********/s/afp/20050514...o_050514125018

All over Europe more protests are planned now, plus there is talk of more countries pulling out support from the states.

Tis a waiting game now.

Slán

[Binkie]

What happened to that thread? Oh wait, didn't you ask Darren to delete it or something? Oh yeah, you did after you through a fit over it. Otherwise I would simply point to what I said before on the drug cultivation there. How convenient.

[Binkie]

Another sad day in little Sternnsville. Turns out that Newsweek just retracted the story that brought up those allegations. Seems to be a trend recently with news agencies shooting themselves in the foot while they're in such a rush to dig up dirt on the government.

Follows the same exact trend of a member here on this website attempting to do the same thing. :lol:

[CptSternn]

Actually if you read along you see the retracted it because of white house pressure, and they also state:

The story has not yet been DISPROVEN, as what they claimed was the investigation was completed. They didn't say it didn't happen.

But the best article today is this one...

http://news.**********/s/ap/20050517/...n_oil_for_food

UNITED NATIONS - Whether smuggled to Jordan or sold to Russian politicians, millions of barrels of illicit Iraqi oil ultimately fueled the cars and heated the homes of ordinary Americans, according to a U.S. Senate subcommittee.

After accusing politicians from France, Britain and Russia of involvement in Saddam Hussein's oil-for-food scheme, the committee focused on alleged American complicity in a report released Monday night.

The report claimed that Washington looked the other way as Texas oil company Bayoil bought Iraqi crude and sold it to American refineries. As a member of the U.N. Security Council, the United States allowed Saddam to pocket billions of dollars smuggling oil to Jordan, Turkey and Syria, it said.



Thats right folks. Doesn't matter who got around the embargo, ultimately it all ended up in texas oil companies who sold it off to americans, so whos to blame?

Slán

[Binkie]

Actually, if you had been following the story yesterday at all as it developed, Newsweek first apologized due to White House pressure. The retraction came when their source made the rather daunting statement of saying, "Well I don't actually remember seeing that incident in any report," which is what the accusations were based off of. Once you find out your source is unreliable and says different things, you pull the plug on the story. That's what Newsweek did.

If you want to pin your hopes on the investigation, that's fine. We'll see what happens, but when you pull an entire article due to an unreliable source, that's generally foreshadowing something.

[MrMaelstrom]

Ok now. We seem to have another interesting thread here.

I'm all for drugs and I say let Europe and the US get flooded with them untill they realize the war on drugs is fought by education about susbstance use and abuse, not prisons, guns and foreign aid to people we know to be ruthless bastards (Karzai not included in this last label).

Ladies and Gentleman, welcome to another fight for the whatever-weight Champion of the Political World title.
On the Red corner, outta Oirland, we got Sternn, former drummer for the Commitments (he's the black of Europe).
And on the blue corner, outta South Park Colorado, we got Binkie.

Now folks, I want a clean fight. No Bush sodomies, no "I'm gother than you", no shit.

Stick to the political arguements and have them properly backed.

Try to only deliver one punch per post, as to keep the show moving.
For the same reason, try to make it a succint punch.
Summarize, people, summarize, 'cause if Mohammed Ali shuffled his feet as much as you two, he wouldn't have the strength to throw a punch.


Let's get ready to ruuuumble!!!!

[CptSternn]

Mael - we need that. Thanks.

And here is the point I was also going to make - the same companies that profit from war (ie. carlyle and the other contractors) are the SAME companies that profit from the war on drugs making the same equiptment to use at home. Is that just a coincidence?

I mean, half the money taken in from taxes in the states is used for weapons, and only weapons made by certain companies. Those companies are chaired by former senators and presidents. Anyone see a pattern here?

[Binkie]

Before Sternn tries to completely bury the issue he brought up, here's an interesting headline he may be interested in reading:

Afghan FM says anti-US feeling not widespread

"Afghan Foreign Minister Abdullah Abdullah said on Wednesday violent anti-U.S. protests sparked by a now-discredited report that U.S. interrogators had desecrated the Koran did not reflect general anti-American sentiment.

Sixteen people died and more than 100 were injured in protests in
Afghanistan last week after Newsweek magazine reported that military interrogators at Guantanamo Bay had flushed the Muslim holy book down the toilet.

Newsweek retracted the report on Monday.

"As the news spread at the beginning, there were two issues in it," Abdullah told reporters after meeting Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi.

"One was the feelings of the ordinary people. The other was the intentions of some extremist elements who wanted to ignite the situation and lead it to violence," he said.

"The people of Afghanistan understand the need for cooperation from the international community. The United States is playing a major role in it and they appreciate it."


Ouch!

[CptSternn]

Ok, so if there is no anti-us sentiment, then why do warlords, not the troops, run 90% of the country? And if you dispute that figure, then why is 90% of all farmland growing poppies?

Another site you can check for this...

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/af.html

Illicit drugs:
world's largest producer of opium; cultivation of opium poppy reached unprecedented level of 206,700 hectares in 2004; counterdrug efforts largely unsuccessful; potential opium production of 4,950 metric tons; potential heroin production of 582 metric tons if all opium was processed; source of hashish; many narcotics-processing labs throughout the country; drug trade source of instability and some antigovernment groups profit from the trade; 80-90% of the heroin consumed in Europe comes from Afghan opium; vulnerable to narcotics money laundering through informal financial networks

So, if 90% of the farmland is growing poppies, and the us troops are actually running the show, not the warlords, then your saying the us troops are helping bring heroin into the rest of the world?

If your saying the us troops are against opium, then your saying they don't have access to 90% of the farmland, about 70% of the country, which means they are NOT in control and there IS an anti-american sentiment.

So which is it? Afghanistan is a narco-state now thanks to the us. The CIA even say as much in no uncertain terms. Either the us troops do not have support which is why it's flourishing, or the us military has now become the worlds biggest heroin dealer.

Whats the story?

[Binkie]

Guess you've never heard of the Northern Alliance. Figures. You just see "US" in the headlines and pretend to know about the situation. Do you even know about oppium production in the 90s and the ISI's heavy involvement in it's circulation through Europe and Russia after the Soviets withdrew? Do you know how much of Pakistan's economy relies on oppium from Afghanistan?

Do you know anything about the history of oppium in Afghanistan? At all? You should cause I went over all of this in the previous thread that you asked Darren to delete cause you were getting ass handled with a vengence on it.

I also love how you're completely inept at reading statistics here. Didn't you say you worked with computers? Were they all "Speak-N-Spells?" 90% of Europe's oppium comes from Afghanistan. How does that line translate to, "90% of Afghanistan is made up of oppium fields?" Seriously, that's gotta be the dumbest fumble I've ever seen. And you're right, there is total Anti-American sentiment in Afghanistan. The foreign minister of that country... HA! What's he know? Sternn here talked with ex-Iraqis in an upscale coffee shop. Knows more than even the foreign minster.

You wanna weigh your expierience of consulting the Afghan people to that of the foreign minster of Afghanistan? Seriously... you want to? That'd be hilarious.

:lol:

Do you ever re-read your posts and say, "golly, that was dumb?"

[CptSternn]

If you read what I said, and I quote myself from the post above, 90% of afghanistans farmable land is used for opium.

Once again follow the link to the CIA website with the states - look at the country stats - see the farmable acrerage - then look at the hectacres being used for farming opium as listed in the 2005 CIA report, and do the math.

Slán

[Binkie]

12.13% of the total land there is arable. That stupifies your naive comment that 90% of the arable land there makes up 70% of the entire country.

Since you like to look at your own quotes, here she is:

...then your saying they don't have access to 90% of the farmland, about 70% of the country,

Also: in the Oppium Survey 2004, published by the U.N. Office On Drugs and Crime and the Afghan Government's Counter Narcotics Directorate (you can easily get a copy of this online in a PDF format), it was reported that only 2.9% of the total land in Afghanistan is used for oppium production. The hectare estimate you're looking at on the CIA website is also based off of that same report (in 2004). You wanna explain to me, Mr. Math Major, just how 2.9% equates to 10.917%?

Try 24% of the arable land there is being used to grow oppium. Try, "then your saying they don't have access to 24% of the farmland, about 2.9% of the country..."

Correct. We don't have absolute 100% control/monintoring ability over the entire land there in Afghanistan (hell we don't have control/monitoring ability for 100% of our own country). If we did, we'd have in our custody Bin Laden and Omar and all these other fine folks that are hiding.

[CptSternn]

First, all the ocean is fishable, but you dont see the us listing the whole coastline as fishing area.

Just because your atlas says X amount IS farmable, doesn't mean it's being farmed.

So just read the CIA fact book first, I'm not going to sit here and debate with you the facts on the CIA site, we are supposed to have a discussion about whats happening in Afghanistan (or more to the point, whats not happening).

Trying to derail the discussion by arguing the CIA facts are wrong is just ignorant. Google for some more info if your at a loss, but tell me why then is Afghanistan the largest opium producer in the world?

Also, saying 'you dont have total control' is like saying I'm not completed finished while trying to empty out a lake with a teaspoon. Karzai came out last week and lambasted bush on the lack of funds and troops and said thats why THEY ARE LOSING the war.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/709/5417780.html

Google for more...

[Binkie]

Did I say anything the CIA is saying is wrong? No. Actually, I just used that to show that you're wrong... and wrong again. Obviously you would never make a good analyst. It's amazing how you even aquired a highschool degree if you can't read simple statistics and use core competency math skills to figure out how much of Afghanistan's land is being used to grow poppies.

And on another note, this actually pertains quite a bit to the discussion. The fact that you even thought that +70% of Afghanistan has arable land just goes to show the extent to which you have no clue about that country's terrain or weather conditions, much less it's actual drug cultivation problems or who is even in charge of dealing with it directly.

Karzi lambasted the entire international community, as... and this may be a shock for you to learn... the international community actually went to war with Afghanistan, not just the US. Stopping the drug problem will come when jobs are created and infrustructure is rebuilt and stabalized, as many families resort to poppie cultivation as a means to get by.

[CptSternn]

I'm not arguing who is fighting there, I'm aruging how bad it is there. We just had yet another group of refugees move into the area from Afghanistan. First hand accounts of whats happening there.

I'm guessing its better than any PDF if you will written by some yke in the states who has never left his desk.

Slán

[Binkie]

That report was put together by the Afghan Counter-Narcotics Directorate and their field agents as well as U.N. officials. It was not a product of the CIA. That's not only a first hand account of the situation, it's being conducted by educated people who don't flee their country, thusly they have the most up to date information. You want to throw your buddy's credibility up against that of the Afghan Government and U.N.'s at assessing the situation?

Again, your "experience" route isn't going to work here either. Your websites have failed you, your attempts at calling on your own expierence have failed you, and now the experience of ex-patriots that "you know" have failed you. What else you got? New topic?

[ice]

40 Tons of Opium Confiscated in Afghanistan

<.<

[CptSternn]

Failed? Haha, if thats your way of trying to once again derail the discussion, you have to do better than that. What exact is your point? Afghans are better off now than before? Drugs are good? The war on drugs takes a back seat to the needs of the oil companies? Did you even read the article Ice posted?

The only one you have convinced that you made some valid point is yourself. If you were right, then there would be no one getting their asses blow to hell right now in Afghanistan.

My point is, the us has lost control. Karzai has echoed the same sentiment just days ago. Some PDF you read doesn't mean the problem there goes away.

Oh wait, for you I guess it does. You can go back to your home and watch Friends, have a starbucks coffee, and not think about it. Too bad my mate Bladi can't because us forces bombed is home, killed his family, and destroyed his village to 'liberate' him (at least thats what they told him).

Slán

[Binkie]

Derail the discussion? You've blatantly shown that you have no clue about Afghanistan or it's drug situation. You just read a headline and pretend to know anything about it. Thus far you've shown me that you A.) Have no clue about Afghanistan's terrain or weather conditions, B.) Can't read statistics off of a simple website, nor can you read topic headers cause you originally posted this reply in the "Jurors Convict Muslim Leader in Terrorism Case," and C.) You acknowledged that you lost cause you're back to the experience shit, which you have none in on this, by the way. Have you ever been to Afghanistan personally? Have you seen the poppy fields? No? Have you read any offical reports put out by the U.N. and the Afghan Government? No? How do you know the situation? Oh, you just heard it from someone who actually lived in that 2.9% of Afghanistan. Yeah, that's likely.

Again, this route has failed you. You have failed in this arguement again to

The US has lost control? Once agian, you've just demonstrated that you have no clue about the situation in Afghanistan (surprised?). Read the article Ice posted. Do some research or go to Afghanistan, yourself, bigshot. Better yet, go get some of that first hand experience that you always pull out of your ass in random discussions. You'll find that the DEA, along with the U.N. and many other nations are working hard with the Afghan government's anti-narcotics directorate to teach and train Afghans to deal with their own problems. Guess you didn't get the memo, but Afghanistan is it's own nation that's trying to deal with it's own problems so they don't have to rely on the US for everything, thusly making them someday a completely sovereign nation.

I urge you to do a bit more research or actually gain some first hand experience in evaluating Afghanistan. The latter probably would do you no good though, as you can't even read topic headers correctly, much less see anything with your own eyes without misunderstanding everything you see (seems to be a long running trend with you). Oh well, guess there's one other way you can at least hear of "first hand experience." Go talk to your Afghani friends in the upscale coffee shop while you sip from your latte and just be content with the fact that you'll never have to live out the experience they're telling you. You can go home and hug your teddy bears and play soldier with the guns you'll never use.

[CptSternn]

Once again trying to move the discussion from politics to personal attacks I see. Just for reference, I know you regularlly peruse through my site and look at me pictures, so I'm not sure where you have the idea I hang out at 'upscale coffee houses'. Also note the refugees here, come here with the clothes on their backs, thats it.

So lets just get this straight - your actually arguing here that Afghanistan is now a good place to go, even though its listed as hostile by the state dept and no commercial flights are going in or out, and that everything is peaces and roses there? Is that what your tyring to argue here?

Slán

[Binkie]

I'll use the Sternn defense here: "I was only returning what was beset upon me."

I've never actually been to your site, frankly. What I use against you has been discussed here before. If you don't remember the coffee houses you claimed to hang out at in Northern Ireland with the refugees, then you need to be brought back up to speed on what you've previously said. This is exactly why the police have to tape record statements. Cause people lie a little too often.

I'm saying that Afghanistan is a great place? Really? I am? I'm arguing that you have failed to correctly assess the situation there thus far and can't even cite figures properly. I'm saying you probably don't even know much about the history of oppium production there or it's bearing on the economies of several neighboring countries or why it's even still a major problem. That's what I'm trying to argue here, is that you're talking about a problem you don't even fully understand.

[MrMaelstrom]

I Bought a gram of Afghan hash today for 6 EUR (about the same in USD).

Fuck that shit. It was worth about 4 decent joints, and I want those 6 bucks to go where they rightfully belong (the people who grew it and made it as opposed to the same greedy intermediary bunch).

And let them pay taxes for it. And let them get farm subsidies (Oh, but if they wanted, they could grow food instead. In Afghanistan? How about corn or wheat, while we're at it? No. Better yet: rice!)
At least they fucking grow something, unlike places like all those off-shore tax break corporate paradises.

What's the deal with the US opposing a proper free market? Oh, yeah, Phillip Morris and a few other fat cats would simply go bankrupt and the pharmaceutical companies would have to start paying proper money for proper substances, instead of buying confiscated shit from the DEAL (oops, I meant to say the DEA), as well as the military-industrial apparattus losing one of their arguements to push their crap on the federal budget..., and so on....

[Granny-like_the_apple]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Once again trying to move the discussion from politics to personal attacks I see.

Coughcough....

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Some PDF you read doesn't mean the problem there goes away.

Oh wait, for you I guess it does. You can go back to your home and watch Friends, have a starbucks coffee, and not think about it.

You make things so easy, dude.

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

I Bought a gram of Afghan hash today for 6 EUR (about the same in USD).

Fuck that shit. It was worth about 4 decent joints, and I want those 6 bucks to go where they rightfully belong (the people who grew it and made it as opposed to the same greedy intermediary bunch).

And let them pay taxes for it. And let them get farm subsidies (Oh, but if they wanted, they could grow food instead. In Afghanistan? How about corn or wheat, while we're at it? No. Better yet: rice!)
At least they fucking grow something, unlike places like all those off-shore tax break corporate paradises.

What's the deal with the US opposing a proper free market? Oh, yeah, Phillip Morris and a few other fat cats would simply go bankrupt and the pharmaceutical companies would have to start paying proper money for proper substances, instead of buying confiscated shit from the DEAL (oops, I meant to say the DEA), as well as the military-industrial apparattus losing one of their arguements to push their crap on the federal budget..., and so on....

Seriously. Not that I agree with everything you said, but I don't get why we have to push our whole fucking "war" on drugs, as if drugs can fight back, on other countries where that shit is a big source of income for people who otherwise would have the bitchassiest time making money to survive (sorry, I'm currently in love with the word "bitchass" and will try to fit it into everything I write even if it doesn't work). And no, I don't know shit about "the history of oppium production there or it's bearing on the economies of several neighboring countries or why it's even still a major problem," but isn't opium used for legitimate purposes, not just illegal drugs? Like medicine?

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, I admittedly know very little details about this. I just know one thing: I like drugs.

[Binkie]

Well that's what some French Thinktank came up with. Legalize the production of oppium and have it exported for medicinal purposes, as there's a shortage of it in the market right now. Authorities have said it's too hard to regulate that and it could possibly lead to a larger export on the black market, so yeah, that was one route that's still on the table, actually.

[Granny-like_the_apple]

Do you know what the other options are, or where I can read about them?

Oh, and sorry about abandoning our Terri Schiavo discussion, if you even remember that. I started writing a response to your last post and then my brain just turned off.