Muslims and Middle Eastern Debate

[MrMaelstrom]

Rant coming.
You have been warned.

I believe I already expressed what I believe to be wrong about Guantanamo in several ocasions already. In this very thread I already said as well that this koran issue is nothing but a load of bullshit.

The USA not being part of an international crimes tribunal is sickeningly arrogant. You didn't invent liberty or democracy nor do you have the monopoly on it, so don't grandstand.

POW's being detained without charges is something that smells of soviet union, not the USA (but seen as we're Putin's buddies now, it's all good).

For the humpteenth time, if you're gonna play Team America (Fuck Yeah included), go for fucking N. Korea.
Maybe then you'll see how much the world really supports you.
Keep following your fuel agenda (gas pipelines through Afghanistan linking Khazakistan and Pakistan + Iraqui Oil pipeline control).

All of your coalition partners have come under fire or suffered casualties too. And our people feel they've been dragged into this by your unilateralism.

Do you think I'd have any problem with troop deployment if they we're under the UN's umbrella (bicker all you want about the UN, but you created it to further your interests and it'd still the ONLY organization empowered to deal with multinacional issues)?
No, I wouldn't.
I'd enlist myself if I was still of age.
I'd like to see troops from all over the world and of all faiths in the Middle East (Israel included, something they'll never stand for, even US troops).
Shit, you think Saudi Arabia would have ever allowed foreign troops on their soil if not to protect a corrupt and filthy rich aristocracy?
Never.

My people's troops are in Iraq.
They are still in Bosnia-Hergegovina, Croatia, Macednia and Kosovo.

But we're the hypocrites here...

When my country got free from 60 fucking years of dictatorship, Kissinger asked Spain's still standing dictator (Franco) to invade Portugal.
Your american base in our Azores islands (where the attack on Iraq was officially declared) was never in jeopardy, but you didn't feel like it and thought your fucking base was more important than my people's freedom (who cares as long as you have yours, huh?).

Do you know how your allies really live like?
Do you have any idea what it's like to be a reporter in Egypt, for example?
You might think it's up to their government and no concern of yours.
Try saying that in Chile, where you overthrew Salvador Allende (executed) to put Pinochet in place (how many WTC's was he alone responsible for?).
Tell me about Nicaragua.
Tell me about Panama, where your puppet dictator, Noriega, decided to cut his strings loose.

Your hands are clean? Your way of life has no blood on it's hands? Gimme a break and a milkshake.

Does my government contribute to this state of affairs? Sure, money talks, and the US dollar talks as loud as american tourists (proper guests don't shout in other people's houses).

And for the record, don't gimme that WWII crap, cause I, for one, don't owe you guys shit. Portugal was neutral.

Oh, and you did great in Angola and Mozambique as well.
At the time you argued about our racism and colonialism and financed through the CIA guerrillas in both countries.
The Soviet Union did the same.
So we fought 2 guerrillas in each country (thanks guys).
When we left, you guys couldn't wait for the spoils, so both countries had civil wars which only stopped very recently (no thanks to you, the soviet union and RSAfrika).

My family left everything they had ever worked for and built with their own hands in Mozambigue. My father (special forces) fought and died there.
There was a personal prize on his head from both the guerrillas the CIA backed and financed as well as the one suported and finaced by the Soviets through Cuba.
He actually died accidentally while doing a security detail for the Railroad supply lines (so they tell me). I'm just saying this to show I don't hold the US to be responsible for his death.
But my family running for their lives on account of being whites in africa isn't right either and it's also on your hands.
When my family left, they gave everything to a local elderly man who used to go hunting with my grandfather.
He took my mother often to his village so she could try the local food.
We loved him and never let him go without money or work. He wasn't beaten or abused. When we gave him the keys, he cried saying he'd be killed if he took what he had helped build. If he made sure it wasn't burned to the ground.

But the bible I have to this day was given to my mother after she became a widow by a (black) friend of hers all the way since they were in school together. But we're the hypocrite racist colonizers. Look what you did to the Philipines. You know what they say there? they say: we spent 500 years in a convent (spanish rule) and 50 years in a whore house (US base).
The country where I was born is the poorest in Africa. Thanks for the liberation. Nevermind they're killing reporters who speak out. Nevermind they kill 8 year old boys for their kidneys to be used everywhere from South Africa to Florida.

But it's all good.

I'll keep repeating that. Maybe I'll convince myself of it.

You used to be the greatest. Now you're the bully.

I'm glad you got good money for your greatness. But Exxon, Shell and Texaco pay well, so they tell me. As does Lockeed, MacDonnell Douglas, Halliburton. As did Enron to Bush's campaign.


Let me hear the 1st republican deny that.


And it ain't about Dubya. I hated Clinton too. And I hated Bush sr. as well. You haven't had a decent president since Nixon (much as I hate his guts too, there was a semblance of integrity to the man).


I still prefered you when you were great.

Do some research on your country's real history abroad.

I owe you nothing, so don't bitch to me about sacrificing so and so in my name. How much do you pay for gas? You want me to tell you how much I pay for mine? What have you done for me?

In reality, my country was in no danger at all before Afghanistan. You guys love saying 9/11, but every decent human being outside the US (there's a lot more of us than you night think) supported you and grieved with you (your country wasn't the only one with casualties).

It was when Bush spoke that the whole world knew we entered a new dark age (don't believe me? Look around. I really hope things there don't get as bad as here, I really do, because I still like to believe you love your children as much as we do ours). We thought things couldn't get any worse after his buddies discredited the whole stock market, but things can always get worse.

Yeah, the US has been in a lot of wars in their 200 years. And so fucking what?

We fought for a thousand.
Read it again: a thousand years of war. Now try to really think about that.

Some centuries we had wars non-stop (fuck, Europe had at least two wars that lasted 100 years. Imagine that ever since your proclamation of Independance you hadn't stopped fighting for a single day).

We have secured an efficient (if hypocritical) stability. But then again, we know our enemies and LIVE NEXTDOOR to them, so some sort of compromise has to be achieved if we both want to live.

But you want to change the world. Great. Start on you doorstep for a change, instead of doing what you do for others to mop up (I almost forgot there was a lot of money in moping up, and that's why the US is in charge, in spite of all your allies [even the muslim ones]). And before you fart some text about rebuilding commissions given to others, look at the general figures and then look at the distribution.

I've always been willing to get into what's rotten in my country, but there's always some excuse to justify your every action, so what's the point?


Go ahead then. But when you tell me I'm either with you or against you at the very moment I'm holding my hand out to you, I'll just take it right back and let you deal with your own shit.

That's what my country should have done, instead of kissing your arse like a fucking beggar.

We seem to be arrogant to you, but have you looked at yourself hard in the mirror lately?

The most powerfull, best equipped, best trained and richest nation on the planet likes to portray itself as the fucking underdog ALL THE FUCKING TIME. Stop whining.

Is there such a thing as american humility? 'Cause I never seen it.

Like I said before, you guys confuse humility with humiliation. Must be that being a former colony still jigs you. We'll always be the rich cowardly fat cats in your eyes.

It's been 200 years. Look again. You're the rich fat cats now!
Oh, you're not a rich person? I'm sorry, but it's not my fault, as I didn't vote there.
We don't have as many people in my country who are fat, let alone obese. We can't afford to get fat, then go on diets so we can fatten up again and feel sorry for ourselves.

Are you better than Europe was with it's colonies? Sure, WE ALL ARE. It's the times that changed, and they changed for everyone, not just you.

But no, you're righteous, as if your rich citizens (northerners included) didn't have slaves at a time when Europeans already considered it an aberration.
I seem to remember Jefferson being advised that his slaves would be free if he brought them over to France.
Shit, they had been free in France since long before Victor Hugo wrote The Count of Monte Cristo.

But no, it's like you fucking invented democracy.

It really reminds me of Asurai's stand on Columbine and Hiroshima. How can you not see?

Have you learned nothing?

Maybe 200 years isn't enough.

You'll learn, but without me. Because some things you have to learn for yourselves.

[edible_eye]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

Rant coming.
You have been warned.

does this mean i've lost the freedom to express myself in this thread? or are you warning me about your upcoming tirade which is - gasp- so angry and hateful toward america? heh. never saw that coming.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

I believe I already expressed what I believe to be wrong about Guantanamo in several ocasions already. In this very thread I already said as well that this koran issue is nothing but a load of bullshit.

The USA not being part of an international crimes tribunal is sickeningly arrogant. You didn't invent liberty or democracy nor do you have the monopoly on it, so don't grandstand.

why is it so important for you people in countries the world over to have a say in america's affairs? drop the 'global community' bullshit. it's one world, separated by borders for a reason.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

POW's being detained without charges is something that smells of soviet union, not the USA (but seen as we're Putin's buddies now, it's all good.

For the humpteenth time, if you're gonna play Team America (Fuck Yeah included), go for fucking N. Korea.
Maybe then you'll see how much the world really supports you.
Keep following your fuel agenda (gas pipelines through Afghanistan linking Khazakistan and Pakistan + Iraqui Oil pipeline control).

yeah, the good old north korea argument. god forbid other countries get involved there. once again - america is a cowboy when we go it alone and we're shitheads when we don't include others. same old, same old.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

All of your coalition partners have come under fire or suffered casualties too. And our people feel they've been dragged into this by your unilateralism.

damn straight we fight alongside others - but of course, you'll never hear other countries getting shit thrown their way by the oh-so-enlightened populace of the world. hating america is easy and ok cuz you'll always have support 'round the world from uppity fucktards who feel safe bashing my country because it makes them feel powerful. it's so easy.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

Do you think I'd have any problem with troop deployment if they we're under the UN's umbrella (bicker all you want about the UN, but you created it to further your interests and it'd still the ONLY organization empowered to deal with multinacional issues)? No, I wouldn't.

one world separated by borders, not a global community. the u.n. doesn't do shit - except collect dues and make resolutions it has no intention of enforcing. i think that's been well covered.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

I'd enlist myself if I was still of age. I'd like to see troops from all over the world and of all faiths in the Middle East (Israel included, something they'll never stand for, even US troops).
Shit, you think Saudi Arabia would have ever allowed foreign troops on their soil if not to protect a corrupt and filthy rich aristocracy?
Never.

christ, now we have to have a full scope of faiths involved before we make plans to invade?

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

My people's troops are in Iraq. They are still in Bosnia-Hergegovina, Croatia, Macednia and Kosovo. But we're the hypocrites here...
When my country got free from 60 fucking years of dictatorship, Kissinger asked Spain's still standing dictator (Franco) to invade Portugal.
Your american base in our Azores islands (where the attack on Iraq was officially declared) was never in jeopardy, but you didn't feel like it and thought your fucking base was more important than my people's freedom (who cares as long as you have yours, huh?).

so, your people are there also and it's america that's shit? sigh. we covered this already. oh, hey - guess what? countries have both invaded and thought about invading america over the years also. that's what happens in a world separated by borders.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

Do you know how your allies really live like? Do you have any idea what it's like to be a reporter in Egypt, for example?
You might think it's up to theor government and no concern of yours. Try saying that in Chile, where you overthrew Salvador Allende to put Pinochet in place. Tell me about Nicaragua. Tell me about Panama, where your puppet dictator, Noriega, decided to cut his strings.

when it's in another country's best interest, they blame their problems on america. america sucks when they assist and america sucks when they don't assist. i've heard all this before and it's kinda sad. when there's a problem somewhere - blame it on america and the world will shake its collective head "YES".

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

Your hands are clean? Your way of life has no blood on it's hands? Gimme a break and a milkshake.

my hands are fine, thanx. show me a way of life that is free of blood. and yes, i'll give you a milkshake.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

Does my government contribute to this state of affairs? Sure, money talks, and the US dollar talks as loud as american tourists (proper guests don't shout.

so, there you go.

although, while implicating your own government, you still made sure to take a dig at americans. see? we're bad too - but you americans...

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

And for the record, don't gimme that WWII crap, cause I, for one, don't owe you guys shit. Portugal was neutral.

who the fuck brought up world war 2?

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

Oh, and you did great in Angola and Mozambique as well. At the time you argued about our racism and colonialism and financed through the CIA guerrillas in both countries. The Soviet Union did the same. So we fought 2 guerrillas in each country (thanks guys). When we left, you guys couldn't wait for the soils, so both countries had civil wars whcih only stopped very recently (no thanks to you, the soviet union and RSAfrika).
My family left everything they had ever worked for and built with their own hands in Mozambigue. My father (special forces) fought and died there.
There was a personal prize on his head from both the guerrillas the CIA backed and financed as well as the one suported and finaced by the Soviets through Cuba.
He actually died accidentally while doing a security detail for the Railroad supply lines (so they trell me). I'm just saying this to show I don't hold the US to be responsible for his death. But my family running for their lives on account of being whites in africa isn't right either and it's also on your hands. When my family left, they gave everything to a local elderly man who used to go hunting with my grandfather. He took my mother often to his village so she could eat mozambican food. We loved him and never let him go without food, money or work. He wasn't beaten or abused. When we gave him the keys, he cried saying he'd be killed if he took what he had helped build. If he made sure it wasn't burned to the ground.
The country where I was born is the poorest in Africa. Thanks for the liberation. Nevermind they're killing reporters who speak out. Nevermind they kill 8 year old boys for their kidneys to be used from South Africa to Florida.

Because it's all good.

listen - how can i, in good faith, bash a personal experience of yours, mael? i can't. and even if i could, i wouldn't because i respect you. i'm sorry for the losses in your life.

but i will say this - again, america is shit for not getting involved and if we had gone in there and wiped out the faction you're deeming as the enemy, we'd have been the shit for doing that as well. it's a no win situation for us. and it's always a hatred thing we get in return. shit, man - even the people we help usually turn around and wind up hating us somewhere down the road.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

I'll keep repeating that. Maybe I'll convince myself of it.

do what you must for the ride here is a short one.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

You used to be the greatest. Now you're the bully.

according to some and it'll never change.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

I'm glad you got good money for your greatness. But Exxon, Shell and Texaco pay well, so they tell me. As does Lockeed, MacDonnell Douglas, Halliburton. As did Enron to Bush's campaign.

Let me hear the 1st republican deny that, or Enron's CEO private minglings with Dubya.

And it ain't about Dubya. I hated Clinton too. And I hated Bush sr. as well. You haven't had a decent president since Nixon (much as I hate his guts too, there was a semblance of integrity to the man).

i find it amusing that out of all that, you zeroed in on a president that was essentially removed from office for his crime as a president you admire.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

I still prefered you when you were great.

Do some research on your country's real history abroad.

i know, i know. america sucks.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

I owe you nothing, so don't bitch to me about sacrificing so and so in my name. How much do you pay for gas? You want me to tell you how much I pay for mine? What have you done for me?

In reality, my country was in no danger at all before Afghanistan. You guys love saying 9/11, but every decent human being outside the US (there's a lot more of us than you night think) supported you and grieved with you (your country wasn't the only one with casualties).

the world, for once, showed compassion to my land. yes. i remember. it's too bad it took all that needless death to stir some emotion out there.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

It was when Bush spoke the whole world knew we entered a new dark age (don't believe me? Look around. I really hope things there don't get as bad as here, I really do, because I still like to believe you love your children as much as we do ours).

the 'dark age', as you call it, was people outside the u.s. realizing that america just got pissed off. it's like heckling the big guy in a bar until he stands up and heads your way - suddenly it doesn't seem like all that heckling was a good idea. bash our country all you want - but you don't like it when we get pissed.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

Yeah, the US has been in a lot of wars in their 200 years. And so fucking what?
We fought for a thousand. Some centuries we had wars non-stop (fuck Europe had at least two wars that lasted 100 years. Imagine that ever since your proclamation of Independance you hadn't stopped fighting for a single day.
We have secured an efficient (if hypocritical) stability. But then again, we know our enemies and LIVE NEXTDOOR to them, so some sort of compromise has to be achieved if we both want to live.
But you want to change the world. Great. Start on you doorstep for a change, instead of doing what you do for others to mop up (I almost forgot there was a lot of money in moping up, and that's why the US is in charge, in spite of all your allies [even the muslim ones]). And before you fart some text about rebuilding commissions given to others, look at the general figures and then look at the distribution.

you've been fighting for all this time and yet, WE'RE the war mongers. sure. makes sense. the only thing i agree with in that piece above is for us to start at our own fucking doorstep. we work, we pay our taxes, we should keep the money right fuckin' here. i, for one, am sick of pissing our hard earned money away to buy hatred.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

I've always been willing to get into what's rotten in my country, but there's always some excuse to justify your every action, so what's the point?

just as there's an excuse for yours.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

Go ahead then. But when you tell me I'm either with you or against you at the very moment I'm holding my hand out to you, I'll just take it right back and let you deal with your own shit.

That's what my country should have done, instead of kissing your arse like a fucking beggar.

We seem to be arrogant to you, but have you looked at yorself hard in the mirror?

look in the mirror? dude - the world holds all sorts of mirrors up to us every single day. we have no choice BUT to look in the mirror. it's just funny that when we start holding up mirros of our own - like in the united nations, it's downplayed and laughed off.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

The most powerfull, best equipped, best trained and richest nation on the planet likes to portray itself as the fucking underdog ALL THE FUCKING TIME. Stop whining.

WE do that or that's the way the media portrays us?

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

Is there such a thing as american humility? 'Cause I never seen it.

Like I said before, you guys confuse humility with humiliation. Must be that being a former colony still jigs you. We'll always be the rich cowardly fat cats in your eyes.

It's been 200 years. Look again. You're the rich fat cats now!
Oh, you're not a rich person? I'm sorry, but it's not my fault, as I didn't vote there.

damn straight, and as such - you don't get a say in our justice system either.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

Are you better than Europe was with it's colonies? Sure, WE ALL ARE. It's the times that changed, and they changed for everyone.

So fucking righteous, as if your rich citizens (northerners included) didn't have slaves at a time when Europeans already considered it an aberration.
I seem to remember Jefferson being advised that his slaves would be free if he brought them over to France.
Shit, they had been free in France since long before Victor Hugo wrote The Count of Monte Cristo.

But no, it's like you fucking invented democracy.

It really reminds me of Asurai's stand on Columbine and Hiroshima. How can you not see?

Have you learned nothing?

Maybe 200 years isn't enough.

You'll learn, but without me. Because some things you have to learn for yourselves.

hating america is easy, maelstrom. you'll always have support somewhere and never have anyone think ill of you for doing so. even if you don't hate us to your core, it's there - and hey, it's all right. no one likes to see the face of the person who's won the lottery, even if that person worked hard to figure out the system - but millions of people still buy a ticket every week hoping to be the next face.

[CptSternn]

Fuck me with a running chainsaw. I can't add anything to that, so I'm going to pack up the hookah with some good amsterdam hash mixed with some red afghan opium, smoke that shit, throw on some rage against the machine and read that post again.

Slán

[MrMaelstrom]

OK then, I'll shorten it: I do not hate the USA.

I support your ideals and am not against some of your actions, but to do things right, you either pull your ass out of Iraq and Afghanistan or WE ALL go in, together, as one and as equals.

Yes, as equals.

It might surprise you, but on account of the british empire, the UK should have had a hell of a more influential role in Afghanistan, as they have a former knowledge of terrain and local costums.

The rest of the world told you we'd not be coerced into fighting.

How much of a coalition would you have if the truth about WMD's was known at the time? Remember that was the US' main arguement. Saddam's ruthlessness to it's people was never in question.
Neither is Kim Jong Il's, and yeah, I'll never drop that arguement, seen as it still stands in spite of the shifting of arguements. They have the fucking A-bomb and are willing to use it on Japan and S. Korea (but I guess Japan is used to being nuked by now, so it's not a priority).

Yes, a thousand years. When the rest of Europe went at it again, we called it quits. It took the rest of Europe your help to get out of it, but they learnt their lesson (you learn fast when you're starving and people are dying all around you).

Your civilians haven't seen shit since the Civil war untill 9/11. And that last one was impressive for its method, because really, those casualties are nothing when compared to what's being done. The public opinion there would be different if the war on terror were fought on amercican soil.

If an american mother and her children were bombed and killed in their suburban homes as collateral damage of the war on terror, you can bet you'd not be so gung ho. I mean really, if someone wants to do 9/11 again, there's nothing you can really do about it. And if there is, it will work better with your servicemen and National Guard at home, keeping you safe. Not like this. You're really adding fuel to the fire.

It really is best to leave things alone. Chile is just starting to get back on its feet and coming to term with its own bleeding massacres, perpetrated by its army. It took time, but generalissimos will never come to power again.

Chaves in Venezuela was elected democratically. You guys don't like him, but if you hadn't so openly tried to push him out by sponsoring a military coup that failed (I'm willing to bet you have no idea what I'm talking about), he probably wouldn't have had all that grassroot support. He would have been voted out. You basically helped empower that idiot legitimately...

Dead is dead. An Iraqui or Afghan civilian is as dead as a 9/11 one.
A Dead innocent is still dead, whether he died by terror of fighting terror.

And yes, the rest of us wouldn't say shit about US interventions if we could discren any sort of methodology in practice and not just corporate greed diguised as virtues.



Again, to sum things up: either get out or go in treating your allies as partners and not immature sidekicks.

[MrMaelstrom]

I almost forgot: the hamish lifestyle.

Now get me my fucking milkshake and make it a chocolate one.

[CptSternn]

The closest milkshake place is 2 1/2 hours away in Dublin, but hell, for that post I'll make the trip for you if ye need one!

Oh, and not to attack EE, but that last line, the one about hating america because its so great is like not only crap, its just offensive.

I mean, it falls in line with 'the terrorists hate freedom' the bush trys to sell everyone (only a small few of this own people believe him).

I mean, invade a sovern nation, kill innocent people, attack their religion, and when they fight back against you blame it on the fact your better than they are. Thats the reason. It's like at my job doing security. Iam forever having lads come up to me, bloodied and beaten in bar room brawls by my associates. Before I kick them out I always ask 'so what happened?'. You know what the answer is 99% of the time? I didn't do anything! Some guy just up and hit me for no reason!

Or in the states when I ran the club they would add things like 'he saw me talking to his girl, and he was afraid she like me more because I'm better looking...' or 'he saw my car and must have been jealous...'

Yeah right. In the end it always turns out more was ALWAYS said and done.

No one hates freedom. What people hate is bullies who try to shove their way of life down your throat, ignoring your cultural and religious differences while stealing your natural resources and making a profit for themselves all in the name of 'freedom'.

Slán

[Binkie]

Or like when this one loser got online and was like "You're just jeleous of my big penis, which is actually small compared to most other men." Yeah, I know where you're coming from, Sternn.

And yes, people hate freedom. Conservative Muslims and Fundamentalists do not agree with women being allowed to have personal freedom and walking around in whatever they wish. They don't agree with women's rights. Neither do you, Sternn, if I recall your arguements correctly. So yeah, that's not just a line they hand you. Hell, look at Nothern Ireland. There are freedoms that the IRA doesn't want people to have there and take every measure they can to prevent the people from exploring them.

[MrMaelstrom]

S'ok Sternn, I got a MacDonald's 5 minutes away I'm surrounded by MacDonald's. Somebody please just give me a 7-11. S'all I need, really.

Anyway, I still prefer it coming from E_E, seem as a man his size will get a supersized milkshake for sure.

What the fuck am I on about?

Time for bed....

[edible_eye]

i'm going to bed cuz i have to be back at work first thing in the morning, but i have to ask - what, sternn?

"Oh, and not to attack EE, but that last line, the one about hating america because its so great is like not only crap, its just offensive."

you're misreading my post, i think. there are two, separate issues at hand in the last paragraph. the first issue has to do with what was written before it - that of hating america and the fact that those who do are the most vociferous. one will never garner enemies saying that one hates america - quite the opposite, actually.

the second issue has to do with america having "won the lottery" in terms of it's place in the world - it's simplified, but that works well enough. we started as a rag-tag bunch and look at us now. for all the civilizations that have fought in wars for hundreds of years and gotten essentially nowhere, obviously america must be doing something right in terms of our technological, economic and community-like know-how. all i'm saying here is many look down on us or at least speak badly of america because of what we've achieved - but they'd slit their own mother's throat to trade places in a heartbeat if given the chance, especially the politicians in other lands.

i don't think people "hate america because it's so great" but rather they hate america for not having what people here do - and i'm not just talking about material goods. i hope that's coming across correctly. i just finished 20 hours of work and like i said - i have to be back there in 6 more.

- sigh -

[edible_eye]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

OK then, I'll shorten it: I do not hate the USA.

I support your ideals and am not against some of your actions, but to do things right, you either pull your ass out of Iraq and Afghanistan or WE ALL go in, together, as one and as equals.

Yes, as equals.

two things:
1.) hate is relative. whether or not you actively hate, the anger is there in your words - at times, seethingly so. to me, anger that hot borders on hatred. your word versus mine though, in regards to your heart - so, for that you win.

2.) there's no way we could ever go as "equals" for the simple fact that not all countries feel the same about what's going on over there. not all countries have equal resources to lend. not all countries have the same relationship with all the other countries involved. there are more intricate factors at play here than going at this like we all belong together.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

It might surprise you, but on account of the british empire, the UK should have had a hell of a more influential role in Afghanistan, as they have a former knowledge of terrain and local costums.

The rest of the world told you we'd not be coerced into fighting.

there are many "should have's" in this world. just the other day, i woke up hung over and thought - i should have fucked her last night, if for no other reason then to have felt that small moment of gratification cuz right now i feel like shit. bottom line is - should haves don't make the world go 'round, they're just lost opportunities.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

How much of a coalition would you have if the truth about WMD's was known at the time? Remember that was the US' main arguement. Saddam's ruthlessness to it's people was never in question.

the belief about wmd's was spread throughout the united nations, that incompetent platoon of buffoons. and the only reason i bring that up is because it wasn't only the u.s. who believed iraq had them.

as for saddam's ruthlessness - i agree. fuck them all. if they wanted to be out from under him, they should have handled it themselves. once the threat was found to be non-existant - i.e. wmd's weren't there - we should have packed up and came home.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

Neither is Kim Jong Il's, and yeah, I'll never drop that arguement, seen as it still stands in spite of the shifting of arguements. They have the fucking A-bomb and are willing to use it on Japan and S. Korea (but I guess Japan is used to being nuked by now, so it's not a priority).

heh. if japan and south korea are the prime targets, let them put their mouths to work. oh wait, i forgot. when it's convenient, america should take care of everything. that's right. and if we invade and take kim jong il out, then we'll be the facist motherfuckers who couldn't be nice and diplomatic.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

Yes, a thousand years. When the rest of Europe went at it again, we called it quits. It took the rest of Europe your help to get out of it, but they learnt their lesson (you learn fast when you're starving and people are dying all around you).

Your civilians haven't seen shit since the Civil war untill 9/11. And that last one was impressive for its method, because really, those casualties are nothing when compared to what's being done. The public opinion there would be different if the war on terror were fought on amercican soil.

two things:
1.) we saw it when japan bombed pearl harbor as well.

2.) public opinion would be different if the war on terror was fought on american soil? why? because americans would be dying instead? makes sense given all the other arguments. everyone is happy to say people are people and everyone matters - as long as it's not AMERICAN PEOPLE they're discussing.

beside, fighting radical muslims here wouldn't do us any good since all those motherfuckers are over there, except for the ones sneaking in here via illegal immigration. that's a different topic, though.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

If an american mother and her children were bombed and killed in their suburban homes as collateral damage of the war on terror, you can bet you'd not be so gung ho. I mean really, if someone wants to do 9/11 again, there's nothing you can really do about it. And if there is, it will work better with your servicemen and National Guard at home, keeping you safe. Not like this. You're really adding fuel to the fire.

the fuel has been added to the fire and continues to be added to the fire and will always be added to the fire just by virtue of our existence. if bombs fall here again, one thing's for sure - there will be a lot more death meted out.

not to worry about our servicemen keeping us safe here. we've got plenty.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

It really is best to leave things alone.

this is where you and i fundamentally disagree. things were left alone for 8 years during clinton and look where it got us.

Originally Posted by mrmalestrom

Chile is just starting to get back on its feet and coming to term with its own bleeding massacres, perpetrated by its army. It took time, but generalissimos will never come to power again.

Chaves in Venezuela was elected democratically. You guys don't like him, but if you hadn't so openly tried to push him out by sponsoring a military coup that failed (I'm willing to bet you have no idea what I'm talking about), he probably wouldn't have had all that grassroot support. He would have been voted out. You basically helped empower that idiot legitimately...

my brother married a girl from argentina. i went there for the wedding. i speak spanish and these were a few of the topics i discussed with her family and friends over drinks and parties. so, yeah - i have a sense of what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by mrmaelstrom

Dead is dead. An Iraqui or Afghan civilian is as dead as a 9/11 one.
A Dead innocent is still dead, whether he died by terror of fighting terror.

And yes, the rest of us wouldn't say shit about US interventions if we could discren any sort of methodology in practice and not just corporate greed diguised as virtues.

in the end, my friend - when the big boys (politicians) sit down at the table - there is only that which is done in the name of what they perceive to be the country's best interest. political parties and powers change every 2-to-4 years here and as such, initiatives can become skewed.

one thing that will ALWAYS remain constant, though is a country's desire (any country) to bring wealth inside. call it whatever you want, but that is the driving force behind every government - wealth and power. to think otherwise is to be ignorant, to be a democrat paying lip service to a camera or to be too young to know any better.

Originally Posted by mrmalestrom

Again, to sum things up: either get out or go in treating your allies as partners and not immature sidekicks.

all i've heard from the united states is gratitude toward those who fight with us. i've heard very little from the rest of the world about our allies. very little.

[edible_eye]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Fuck me with a running chainsaw.

now that's a visual. talk about REALLY tearing your ass up.

[edible_eye]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

No one hates freedom. What people hate is bullies who try to shove their way of life down your throat, ignoring your cultural and religious differences while stealing your natural resources and making a profit for themselves all in the name of 'freedom'.

not always true. osama and his family did exactly what you just described and somehow, he's become more of a martyr; a sick, old man who's being hunted by the big, bad americans - probably because he perpetrated his agenda against the united states.

in his case, it was to 'free' the world of the symbol of america's evil empire. doesn't matter how you slice it. doesn't matter how you slant it. the hatred, once again, has returned - from the world toward america.

that's life.

[edible_eye]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

Anyway, I still prefer it coming from E_E, seem as a man his size will get a supersized milkshake for sure....

very perceptive. it's happened many times that i've received a larger portion of food than the man or woman in line before me. i imagine that's based on my size, as you say.

chocolate it is.

[Cassius]

Originally Posted by edible_eye

two things:
1.) hate is relative. whether or not you actively hate, the anger is there in your words - at times, seethingly so. to me, anger that hot borders on hatred. your word versus mine though, in regards to your heart - so, for that you win.

2.) there's no way we could ever go as "equals" for the simple fact that not all countries feel the same about what's going on over there. not all countries have equal resources to lend. not all countries have the same relationship with all the other countries involved. there are more intricate factors at play here than going at this like we all belong together.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

There are extremists on all ends, it's just that in regurad to Muslims there are two possibilities...
a) Certain groups get more coverage
b) Certain groups are truly more hateful than others.

While I don't completely agree with the Boston.com article ( there were marches and gatherings held by muslim communities against terrorism ), I see a disturbing trend to condone violence commited by extremists groups and reactionary measures condemned.

I must note :
There were some Buddhist clashes in Sri Lanka and authorities feard they might flare up again.

I never thought I'd see "militant" and "Buddhist" next to each other, but there we are. :shock:

[edible_eye]

cassius -

make sure you post in the 'introduce yourself here' thread over in the 'general' section. and if you have one, post a pic in the pic post thread. you're off to a good start - not because you supported my statements - but because you can relay complete and coherent thoughts.

welcome.

[CptSternn]

Mael - once again good article. And good rebuttle EE. I don't think you purposely intented to offend me or anyone else (actually you can't offend me - I grew up in Belfast, so we get a thick skin very young).

It was so good it even shut the binkster up! I mean, two pages of stuff, and all she had as a retort was a dick joke to the four lines where I simply said good job.

I mean, its safe to say she really doesn't have a platform nor any good arguments - I mean, she mainly exists here to reply to ANYthing I post, and now since she has no real concept of the world, skips over any real arguments and just starts with personal attacks. This makes me very happy - personal attacks are the sign of a lost conversation.

EE - Osama took away freedoms and imposed his will on the us? He plundered the resources of the states? How so? At the most, he made his political views made to the country. I mean, he isn't 20 years old! He has been fighting the soviets for a few decades with help from the CIA. After the soviets left, he and his people told the americans time and time again to leave his country and to stop helping israel. Of course after the us had used him and his people as the tool they felt he was, they broke off all contact.

He merely let you guys know hes still there, and even though he was out of site and out of mind for the majority of americans, he made sure ye knew he was still thinking about you.

This really goes to show my other previous point which I think Mael also mentioned that most americans really don't see whats happening worldwide. Osama, a man who was paid by the states, trained by the states, and used by the states, wasn't ever on the news until he started attacking the states. How many soviet families lost love ones to his attacks? How many soviet soldiers died to his men? Does anyone care there? No, it doesn't affect them. My point being, the americans discarded him like a used gum wrapper. The fact he came back and bit you in the ass was because he is more like a rabid pitbull than a gum wrapper - dumping him on the side of the road and hoping he doesn't find his way home is just wishful thinking.

But he is not the first and won't be the last. The other article I just posted about Afhghanistan and the warlords is yet another parallel here. Sadaam used to be on the CIA payroll. He got all those chemical weapons from the united states. Once again, once his purpose was served he too was discarded until this time he served a new purpose (as the 'bogeyman' to scare people).

The warlords in Afghanistan now the us is currently putting into power to take over the place are all the same type of people. And guess what? Once order is restored and the us feels they can sweep them under thr rug, they will come back to fight the states as well.

Why? Not because any of them want to impose their will on the states or conquer the states - they just want the united states to stay on their side of the pond and stay out of their way of life.

I mean seriously, no matter what you think about their way of life, they have been doing it for centuries longer than any western society even existed. Trying to say 'hey, our world is better' just makes them angry. When you goosestep in there and trump up fake weapons charges or accuse everyone of being a terrorist, then you just pour fuel on the fire.

Slán

[TeapotScar]

Originally Posted by edible_eye

there are many "should have's" in this world. just the other day, i woke up hung over and thought - i should have fucked her last night, if for no other reason then to have felt that small moment of gratification cuz right now i feel like shit. bottom line is - should haves don't make the world go 'round, they're just lost opportunities.

But they're not lost opportunities if they're talked about and learned from- "should have"s and "shouldn't have"s are the only chance that we have to not repeat history. If we brush of the HUGE mistakes that we made in Iraq and Afghanistan, then the next time we have an enemy that needs to be taken care of (North Korea or Iran, for example), we're just going to go about it the wrong way *again*. I don't want to see that happen, and I know you don't either.

Originally Posted by edible_eye

we should have packed up and came home.

Hehe... :wink: see?

We should have listened to the inspectors in the first place, in my opinion.

[Binkie]

Dick Joke? Huh? Ooooh... yes, I agree. Your dick is a joke. :wink:

Shut me up, huh? No, actually you were the first to shut your dumbass up, you did so very well. Didn't have any kind of rebuttle to my counter-arguement. Once more, it's obvious you've lost that arguement because you could no longer argue it. I didn't say anything until you started saying really stupid shit again, which I threw yet another counterpoint out at and you've negated to provide any other rebuttle. Again, you have an interesting way of forfeiting a debate.

Again, you cite incorrect information again and again, Wee Willy. You should really shed your fear of reading and try it. You may learn something. Bin Laden never recieved funds from the US. It was raised through independant charities and directly from the Saudi government. He fought the Soviets for decades? Really? I didn't know the Soviet-Afghan war lasted more than a decade. Oh, that's right, it didn't. Nice info there, Michael Mooron. Go do some research or talk with Milton Bearden or any high ranking Saudi official who was in the know. Better yet, ask Bin Laden if he recieved funds from the US. Nice job acting like you know what you're talking about. Bad job knowing what you're talking about.

He also let us know he was there through several other attacks on embassies and the USS Cole.

Course, if you think Bin Laden was the real man behind these attacks in the past, you again, know nothing. He has no technical expertise in terrorist activities. This is evident by the fact that his organization was a pitiful heap of shit that did nothing of major significance until after Ayman al-Zawahiri joined the ranks as the number 2 man. He is the man with technical expertise in devising plans and exocuting them. He is the man who is widely suspected of driving Bin Laden to become even more Anti-US prior to his joining. So don't act like you know Bin Laden, cause you haven't studied him or his organization if you fail to even mention al-Zawahiri when you talk about him possessing major anti-US sentiment beyond the simple protests he did in the 70s (note that he did protest the US' aid to Isreal back then, which meant he was on the lookout to assure himself and his group that no funds came from the US durring the Soviet-Afghan war).

To show yet again that you have no clue what you're talking about, Saddam was not discarded after his purpose was served. He was used, but we keep our puppets in our pocket long after they've served their purprose. We turned against him when he began using chemical weapons on Kurds.

With warlords, they're slowly being phased out of the government by Karzai. Right now they serve as a crutch and if you think they're going to be the force that governs Afghanistan after the infrustructure and police force are built back up, you're sorely mistaken.

[CptSternn]

First TPS - good to have ye back!

Second, EE and TPS, I agree with you fully on that whole 'should have brought em back' thing. My biggest issue with bush is not that he makes so many mistakes, I could look over ALL of it to some extent, but he, like some other people I know, just won't admit he made a mistake. Thats why many people can't stand him.

I mean, when he was asked on Irish TV about invading Iraq, and they asked what about the WMD's, he told them (I'm paraphrasing as I don't have the exact article here), 'we didnt go in for the wmds, we went in to stop sadaam'. Later when questioned and people said sadaam is out of power, he tells us, we didnt go in for sadaam, we went in to liberate the people from terrorists.

It's like he just cant say he was wrong. He changes his rationalisation every chance he gets, then bold face lies and says, oh, you must have misheard me. Or in reality, what he does is change the subject. People ask 'what about wmds' he says 'sadaam was a murderer'. Well, that wasn't the question. Thats not an appropriate answer.

He also refused to go into congress and say anything under oath. And, when he did decide to 'grace' congress with his presence, he brought in cheney, a lawyer, to hold his hand and listen to his answers before he spoke out loud. That doesn't instill confiedence in a leader as far as I'm concerned. To this day, he releases all news through his 'press secretary'. And when he lies and gets caught, they just say 'the press secretary misread the orgininal answer' and brush it off like its nothing (the most recent one was the Koran mishandling when they said nothing happened, then later said, oh well, something happened, but it didnt involve a toilet'. Something is the opposite of nothing, it was a lie, and they knew it, much like half of the other stuff they 'release'.

It's just sad they have to be called out on it to admit it. It's also sad it happens every few weeks and has happened like that ever since he took office.

Slán

[MrMaelstrom]

I believe your data to be wrong, Binks.

Viral strains to produce chemical weapons were given or sold to Saddam in the early 80's, as it enabled the US to attack Iran without actually going there. Objectionable as it is, no one would have said much about it if they had been conventional weapons.

The US really did nothing against him after he gased the Kurds.
They did this long before 1990.

Shiites felt confident that allies would not stop at freeing Kuwait when they actually entered and fought viciously against the Iraqui army in the southern iraqui desert. Your soldiers fought and won several great battles there that the US government or the Pentagon still don't talk about. Anyway, they rose up, feeling backed not only by global public opinion, but by a real army of resolute men and women.
The allies pulled back abd the shiites got slaughtered.
That's what the US complained about. There might have been a lot of shit against the Kurds in between both Gulf wars, but the gasing of an entire village of kurds happened long before all that, as far as I can remember.

The irony is that just before Saddam invaded Kuwait and getting all the world concerned about those poor kuwaitees (oil supply) and triggering Desert Shield (the prequel to Desert Storm), the US congress was about to approve yet another arms sale to Iraq.

Kind of what Bill Hicks said:
-Amazing weapons they got! Terrible weapons....

-How do you know?

-We kept the sales receipts. As soon as that check clears...What time does the bank open? 9 o'clock? OK, then we strike at 10.

Sternn's got a point there as well: the same way there are surely plenty of US troops who not only didn't vote for Bush and oppose the war they're fighting (or they way they're fighting it, to be precise), there were plenty of young men from all over the Soviet Union being dragged into that nightmare of a war.

As for funding.... Come on.... You didn't really expect covert CIA ops to openly give money and weapons directly to Afghans during the cold war. Of course the money was laundered through many different organizations (mostly Saudi or muslim, of course, as not to upset the fragile muslim ego).

But even if you dismiss that, where the hell did the Afghans get their Stinger Missiles? They were made exclusively for the US armed forces (at the time, at least).

Even if you argue that all those portable missles (stingers) were stolen off US barracks, it's still your responsibility, even if indirectly.
Just like I'll blame Russia if any of their missing nuclear warheads surfaces in the worst kind of way. People have the right to bear arms, but they are also responsible for what those arms do (like the indonesian army invading East Timor with Gerald Ford's OK, and slaughtering them with weapons sold by the US, UK, Portugal and many others).

And american politics in the Reagan era were of little covertness, given the arrogance at the time.

Does anyone remember Rambo III?
What do you think that movie was all about?
Just send him in again to kill the Muhajedin he helped the last time around.
Stinger Missiles can be seen in various parts of the film in Afghan hands (that was one of the few true things about a Rambo film).

Sternn, you have toned down a lot, and thank you for it. It's been easier to breathe here lately. You didn't change what you said (you didn't need to), but you changed somewhat the way you said it (and that's what's important). I just wish you would extend the courtesy to you know who.

Who knows, maybe she'll reply in the same manner.
Wouldn't that be lovely?

And Binks, give the man a break. Even if Sternn has a small dick, at least he has one, which is more than can be said of you, thank God!!!
Boy, that came out a lot more mysoginist than I imagined, but seen as I still find it kinda funny, I'll leave it. :P


"I want my AIR Birds, my cheese helmet and blow up Canada. Why can't I do that? I pay my taxes.
I think you hear me knocking... I think I'm coming in.... and you know what? I'm already wearing the cheese helmet!!"
Dennis THE MENACE Leary

[MrMaelstrom]

Sternn posted just before I did, so here's a bit more:

I can find it in my heart to forgive Bush, as he's a well meaning idiot. In PT we say that Hell is full of good intentions, but still...

I can think of Chenney as an arrogant greedy sod who thinks he knows what's best and leave it at that.

Rice is a stuck up idiot and there really is no more to say about her, other than the "achievment" of being the black woman to rise higher in the US chain of command (which kinda blows away my idea that Queen Latifah should be the next prez...hummm, maybe Missy Elliott?).

But that Rumsfeld guy...Jesus fucking Christ.... He's the one who really embodies all that "the rest of the world" hates about their preconception of US citizens. The guy's a walking cliché. But I loved that bit where he jept mistaking Saddam's name with Bin Laden's.

ok, THERE ARE NO WMD's. There weren't any for a while already, but fuck it. Saddam has been removed from power for a while now.
So what I want to know is:
Why aren't Iraquis wiping their own arses by now?

AND JUST WHERE THE FUCK IS SADDAM?
Don't think you'll ever hear any real info from him, as he knows enough to seriously damage the US (more than has been done already).

AND JUST WHERE THE FUCK IS OSAMA?
Really. Zawahiri's and Zarkawi's aside, wasn't he the 1st reason for troop deployment in the 1st place? Wasn't he global enemy number one?

[Binkie]

We did nothing against Saddam after an envoy traveled to Turkey and confirmed that he was truely gassing Kurds in Northern Iraq?

Have you heard of the "Prevention of Genocide Act of 1988," Mael? Most likely not, as it was eventually killed, but it goes to show that the US didn't just sit back on it's ass and do nothing.

As for funding, Saudi Arabia matched every penny the US put into the Soviet-Afghan war. US dollars were put to use buying weapons, which were distributed by the ISI pipeline. Bin Laden 'n friends were not associated with the ISI. They recieved Saudi funds, which were the ones filtered through Islamic charities (the US insisted on knowing EXACTLY where their money went).

No one is saying the CIA didn't pour billions of dollars into Afghanistan for weapons (most of which were shitty beyond Stingers). What I'm saying is that the channels they sent their money in through did not make it to Bin Laden. US money was only a fraction of that which was circulating to fund the covert war, and even at that, US funds didn't equate to even half of what was floating around in there.

Bin Laden recieved directly from Saudi charities, which is where part of the Saudi billions went. US money didn't reach him. He didn't want US money.

[Binkie]

Also, the sale you're refering to that happened a day before the Kuwaiti invasion was for "advanced data transmission devices," not arms.

[MrMaelstrom]

I stand corrected on THAT specific alledged weapons sale. But conventional weapons were sold on previous occasions.

Regarding the confirmation of the massacre, it's praiseworthy to note that some sort of attempt was made to prevent such things happening in the future, but it doesn't absolve the US from some responsibility for that massacre in my opinion. Sure, you did more than my government did, but on the other hand, my government didn't supply the weapons used for such a massacre. And I also don't like the idea of it being ok for Saddam to have used them on iranians (as the US had intended).

Regarding soviet-afghan war funding, I was about to do some more research on it, but I really can't be bothered with it right now, and I believe I know you enough for your word to sufice. So again I stand corrected.

E_E: thank you for your comment about my feelings towards the US being your word against mine. It takes a big man to say that (and you're a big man in more than one way and you showed it to me [not like that you pervs :evil: ])

[MrMaelstrom]

E_E was right. I started writing and I let my anger at what I find wrong to find it's way into my heart and words as I wrote. I wanted to lash out. I wanted to hurt.

E_E snapped me out of it, but your candour really makes feel embarassed, for I too can do better than that. I too should remember that even though I never set foot on your continent, I have people I call friends there (you and many others here).
Just as I forced myself to remember Gypsy when addressing the war issue as not to offend his feelings, I should have remembered you, EPS, BP, Seth, Ice, Wolf, Teapot, Solumina, Alkilyu and many others as people and not abstract inhabitants of a country I find to be ambiguous to the extremes.

I hate my country a lot more than I do yours. I want changes for the better, and that's why I bite your kneecaps. I know that any change in my country will happen a lot faster through your global influence than anything I might actually do here other than vote.

So of course I'm not pleased when the course you're headed to doesn't seem to be where I wanna go.

I'm pretty sure that's a lot of Sternn's problems with the US. His country is a lot more tied to America than mine ever will be. We get very frustrated when our nations are so easily influenced by people who do not have our best interests as a number one priority (and they never will, seen as like I'm often reminded, a governments duty is to its people 1st and foremost). It makes us mad when you don't see thngs our way. I'm sure you feel the same.

I was preaching about humility with such a pride that I should have chocked on it out of irony alone.

Thanks for the heads up.
Thanks for reducing me to insignificance (doesn't make much sense in english, I know)
And last, but definately not least: THANKS FOR THE POEMS. I really never dug poetry other than Shakespeare and the french rhyming original of Cyrano de Bergerac (one hell of a love story and a very fine film completely in verse starring Gerard Depardieu).

Thank you guys.
Screw your government, but America: thanks for South Park!

Now, RESPECT MA AUTHORITA!!!!

shit it's 7am (I hate america 'cause it keeps me up all night :shock: )