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Old 10-17-2011, 01:36 PM   #151
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Old 10-17-2011, 04:47 PM   #152
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yeah i'm from gaia online
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Old 10-17-2011, 07:50 PM   #153
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Why is this in shill?
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Old 10-17-2011, 08:00 PM   #154
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Dunno... there's already one in the "General" section with a similar, if not the same name.

This one just appeared in Shill one day last week.
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Old 10-17-2011, 08:05 PM   #155
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Okay, I guess it is pushy about the religion thing.
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Old 10-19-2011, 04:30 PM   #156
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i have read a quran before not a good book better used as rolling paper
You ARE aware that the Bible and Quran are basically just different translations of the EXACT same stuff, right? Some Christian you are. Jesus would be ashamed to know that people claiming to be his followers are speaking ill of the people who were once his neighbors.
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Old 10-19-2011, 06:29 PM   #157
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Old 10-19-2011, 08:43 PM   #158
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:17 PM   #159
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You ARE aware that the Bible and Quran are basically just different translations of the EXACT same stuff, right?
Wow, FAIL. You've obviously never read the Qur'an.
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You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
real classy
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:50 PM   #160
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Well, seeing how she studies this and all...
While you're just some random dude that always wants to be right. So it's ok for people to trust your sophomoric opinions, but we shouldn't trust Saya's scholarly experience?
Boy! Aren't double standards the best?
Sophomoric? While Saya is still studying, I already have my degree. Like I stated before, I’ve studied world mythology for quite a while now. A lot of that was done in college, though it’s been an important aspect for the majority of my life. I have a bachelor of science in entertainment media, of which world mythology and psychology both play very important foundational roles. It's necessary to understand where the "hero" concept comes from and how symbolism affects popular culture in order to produce successful films, games and other medias. I’m currently co-developing a project that deals specifically with Mesopotamian mythos, which has required some rather in-depth research. So I just might know a thing or two about the subject.
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Old 10-19-2011, 11:13 PM   #161
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Are you really comparing that to religious studies?
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Old 10-19-2011, 11:54 PM   #162
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Are you really comparing that to religious studies?
No. I don't claim to know the motivations behind the Hebrews or Muslims or Christians, or what drove them to the practice of monotheism. I don't study religion. I read the old testament as mostly mythology, not religion. By reading the old testament in this way, and by being familiar with Mesopotamian mythologies, I'm capable of seeing parallels between the two. Parallels that disprove the notion that the majority of the book of Genesis was based on original ideas. It wasn't. I'm sure parts of it were, but too much of it is virtually a rewrite of much older Mesopotamian myth, from Marduk to Adam, to the serpent in the tree to the lady of the rib, to Enlil and Ninlil and the South Wind. Some figures get merged together while others get pulled into 2 or more. It's all mythology based on older mythology.
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Old 10-19-2011, 11:59 PM   #163
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Yeah, we ain't talking about Genesis dipshit; the whole point is that Lilith is NOT in Genesis and you're still talking about Genesis.
Your desperate attempts at rationalizing your bullshit just so you can spare yourself an apology was hilarious at first, but now it's just sad, and very annoying.
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You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
real classy
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:15 AM   #164
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Yeah, we ain't talking about Genesis dipshit; the whole point is that Lilith is NOT in Genesis and you're still talking about Genesis.
Your desperate attempts at rationalizing your bullshit just so you can spare yourself an apology was hilarious at first, but now it's just sad, and very annoying.
Please tell me where I ever stated that Lilith was in Genesis? Or where I even implied that she was? Because I did not. All I did was give the actual account of Lilith and her story as Adam's wife. I never once stated she was in Genesis or any other portion of any bible. I stated she came from Hebrew mythology.
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:58 AM   #165
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so your hailing satan huh?
Pothead, is Satan and Lucifer considered to be the same being in your religion? Please be sure to answer correctly and don't just guess at it or assume.
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Old 10-20-2011, 01:10 AM   #166
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I'm not deriding you for explicitly stating that Lilith was in Genesis. I'm deriding you for not knowing shit about Lilith NOR Genesis and that you keep talking about Genesis on a topic that was about Lilith's lack of importance in jewish religion, even jewish mythology.
Learn to read.
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You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
real classy
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Old 10-20-2011, 06:20 AM   #167
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Old 10-20-2011, 07:04 AM   #168
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I'm not deriding you for explicitly stating that Lilith was in Genesis. I'm deriding you for not knowing shit about Lilith NOR Genesis and that you keep talking about Genesis on a topic that was about Lilith's lack of importance in jewish religion, even jewish mythology.
Learn to read.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/article-...41/lilith.html

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LILITH . In postbiblical Judaism, Lilith is a female demon who seduces men and kills unsuspecting children. Lilith (Hebrew, Lilit) became identified as Adam's first wife, created from dust to be her husband's equal. As the name of a demon, Lilit is etymologically related to the Sumerian lil ("wind") and not, as some once supposed, to the Hebrew laylah ("night"). Yet like the Sumerian wind demon and her later Babylonian counterpart, lilitu, a succuba who seduces men in their sleep, Lilith is active at night, seizing men and forcing them to copulate with her. In ancient Babylonian religion, the lilitu has a male counterpart, the ardat lili, who seduced women in their sleep. Both were once human, identified as women and men who died young and who after death sought the husbands and wives they had never enjoyed in life. The figure of the Babylonian demon Lamashtu, known as a child slayer, eventually converged with that of the lilitu demon to form the image of Lilith.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, there is only one clear reference to Lilith. Isaiah 34:14, describing the devastation of Edom, maintains that Lilith shall be at rest in the desert, among wild animals, screech owls, and satyrs. This reference to Lilith as demon is more fully developed in postbiblical Jewish literature, where Lilith is one of the lilin, a class of demons that includes both females and males. In the Babylonian Talmud Lilith is portrayed as having a woman's face, long hair ('Eruv. 100b), and wings (Nid. 24b). Her identity as demon is underscored in Bava' Batra' 73a, referring to the demon Hormiz or Ormuzd as Lilith's son, and in Shabbat 151b, …
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Lilith.aspx#1
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Demonic figure in Jewish folklore. She seems to have originally been a storm demon and was later associated with the night. At a very early period, she was seen as one of several vampire demons in ancient Sumer. In the Gilgamesh Epic (approximately 2000 B.C.E.), she is pictured as a vampire harlot; though a beautiful young woman, she is unable to bear children, her breasts are dry, and she has the feet of the nocturnal owl.

In the Talmud, Lilith is given a new mythological life as the supposed first wife of Adam. Following an argument over who should have the dominant position during sexual intercourse, Lilith left and became a promiscuous wanderer. She mothered many children, called the lilim. She also encountered three angels sent by God, with whom she negotiated an agreement. She became a vampiric demon attacking children but would stay away from any child wearing an amulet with the name of three angels—Senoy, Sensenoy, and Semangelof.

Over the centuries Lilith was gradually transformed into a whole legion of beings who functioned as incubi and succubi, attacking men and women who were engaged in normal sexual activity. They gathered the men's sperm to father more demonic offspring. They inflicted women with barrenness and miscarriages and sucked the blood of children. A special anti-Lilith ritual was developed to banish them from homes and force them to go naked into the night.

The myth was active in the Jewish community through the centuries and flourished during the Middle Ages. It survived into the nineteenth century among conservative Jewish communities. A remnant of the story remains in the amulets with the name of the three angels, sometimes used by people who know little of the Lilith story.
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Old 10-20-2011, 07:06 AM   #169
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I'm not deriding you for explicitly stating that Lilith was in Genesis. I'm deriding you for not knowing shit about Lilith NOR Genesis and that you keep talking about Genesis on a topic that was about Lilith's lack of importance in jewish religion, even jewish mythology.
Learn to read.
You'd do well to take your own advice. I would say the topic turned (partially) into being about Genesis, due to Saya's denial of it having any resemblance to Enuma Elish or Gilgamesh, which is contrary to what many scholars believe. I have read Genesis, Enuma Elish and Gilgamesh – in fact I have all 3 of them right here in front of me - along with many other myths and I strongly disagree with her stance on the issue and I can back it up with facts. I've seen no facts presented here from you or anyone else. Saya argued that Enuma Elish was anthropomorphic, polytheistic and that it doesn’t cover Joseph’s death in Egypt. Well, neither does Genesis 1 (cover Joseph’s death). The rest can be explained due to the differences between polytheism and monotheism. Marduk is Elohim. In Babylonian mythology, Marduk is not the only God, just the most important one, aside from possibly Anu.
You claim I know nothing about Lilith, yet you provide no evidence to prove me wrong. So where is your evidence? I stated her story to the best of my knowledge and you say I’m wrong, yet provide no facts to support that claim. I’ve mentioned various possible sources of the current incarnation of Lilith, and you dismiss them as me “desperately grasping at straws”, yet again have provided no proof to back up your claims. And nowhere in any of these posts has anyone discussed her “lack of importance in Jewish faith”, so how was that the topic of the conversation when no one stated it? I’d suggest YOU learn to read, Mr. Alan.
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Old 10-20-2011, 07:13 AM   #170
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And just for the record, here's some interesting read about the parallels and plagiarisms between Genesis and Babylonian mythology.

http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/D...sisgenesis.htm

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Genesis' Genesis,
The Hebrew Transformation of
the Ancient Near Eastern Myths
and Their Motifs.

25 March 2001
20 September 2002 Revision and Update

This article is an attempt to briefly identify some of the Ancient Near Eastern Motifs and Myths from which the Hebrews apparently borrowed, adapted, and reworked in the Book of Genesis (more specifically Genesis 1-11).

It is my understanding that Genesis' motifs and characters, God, Adam, Eve, the Serpent, and Noah, are adaptations and transformations of characters and events occurring in earlier Near Eastern Myths. In some cases several characters and motifs from different myths have been brought together and amalgamated into Genesis' stories.

Lambert, has made a very important observation regarding the manner in which Mesopotamian mythographers worked:

"The authors of ancient cosmologies were essentially compilers. Their originality was expressed in new combinations of old themes, and in new twists to old ideas." (p.107, W.G. Lambert, "A New Look at the Babylonian Background of Genesis," [1965], in Richard S. Hess & David T. Tsumra, Editors, I Studied Inscriptions From Before the Flood. Winona Lake, Indiana, Eisenbrauns, 1994)

I believe Lambert's observation can be applied to the Hebrews who were combining old themes and putting "new twists" to old ideas. My research indicates that, at times,"reversals" are occurring in the Hebrew transformation and reinterpetation of the Mesopotamian myths. These "reversals," as I call them, can take the form of different characters, different locations for the settings of the stories, and different morals being drawn about the nature of God and Man's relationship.

Another scholar, Wenham, made another important observation about Genesis, it is apparently a polemic, challenging the Mesopotamian view of the relationship between God and Man-

"Viewed with respect to its negatives, Gen 1:1-2:3 is a polemic against the mythico-religious concepts of the ancient Orient...The concept of man here is markedly different from standard Near Eastern mythology: man was not created as the lackey of the gods to keep them supplied with food; he was God's representative and ruler on earth, endowed by his creator with an abundant supply of food and expected to rest every seventh day from his labors. Finally, the seventh day is not a day of ill omen as in Mesopotamia, but a day of blessing and sanctity on which normal work is laid aside. In contradicting the usual ideas of its time, Gen 1 is also setting out a positive alternative. It offers a picture of God, the world, and man...man's true nature. He is the apex of the created order: the whole narrative moves toward the creation of man. Everything is made for man's benefit..." (p.37, Vol. 1, "Explanation," Gordon J. Wenham, Genesis 1-15 [Word Biblical Commentary, 2 vols.], Word Books, Waco, Texas 1987, ISBN 0-8499-0200-2)

Lambert's and Wenham's observations are "keys" to understanding how and why Genesis was formatted in the manner it now appears. In other articles posted on this website I have explained why I believe that Genesis was composed in the Exilic or Post-Exilic era (550-458 BCE), I accordingly understand that the Ancient Near Eastern myths and their motifs being utilized by Genesis' author, are of periods preceeding 550-458 BCE.
The full article can be read at that site, along with links to several other articles. And that's just one source, from one professor. There are numerous others.
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Old 10-20-2011, 07:28 AM   #171
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You'd do well to take your own advice. I would say the topic turned (partially) into being about Genesis, due to Saya's denial of it having any resemblance to Enuma Elish or Gilgamesh, which is contrary to what many scholars believe. I have read Genesis, Enuma Elish and Gilgamesh – in fact I have all 3 of them right here in front of me - along with many other myths and I strongly disagree with her stance on the issue and I can back it up with facts. I've seen no facts presented here from you or anyone else. Saya argued that Enuma Elish was anthropomorphic, polytheistic and that it doesn’t cover Joseph’s death in Egypt. Well, neither does Genesis 1 (cover Joseph’s death). The rest can be explained due to the differences between polytheism and monotheism. Marduk is Elohim. In Babylonian mythology, Marduk is not the only God, just the most important one, aside from possibly Anu.
Elohim in Genesis 1 is not embodied, but transcendent, omnipotent, all powerful and not anthropomorphic. Marduk didn't create anything, but through his actions things were created much by accident. YHWH is anthropomorphic in Genesis 2, but still have direct intent and doesn't spend a whole lot of describing how he made the world, EXCEPT THAT THE ORDER CHANGES.

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You claim I know nothing about Lilith, yet you provide no evidence to prove me wrong. So where is your evidence? I stated her story to the best of my knowledge and you say I’m wrong, yet provide no facts to support that claim. I’ve mentioned various possible sources of the current incarnation of Lilith, and you dismiss them as me “desperately grasping at straws”, yet again have provided no proof to back up your claims. And nowhere in any of these posts has anyone discussed her “lack of importance in Jewish faith”, so how was that the topic of the conversation when no one stated it? I’d suggest YOU learn to read, Mr. Alan.
herp a derp a derp, where is your evidence that she was always considered the wife of adam, from prebiblical times? Your two encyclopedia sources proved you wrong.
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Old 10-20-2011, 07:45 AM   #172
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Lilith? Wasn't that the demon from that season of Supernatural?
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Old 10-20-2011, 07:48 AM   #173
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I thought it was the little succubus sister of Morgan.
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Old 10-20-2011, 08:01 AM   #174
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And just for the record, here's some interesting read about the parallels and plagiarisms between Genesis and Babylonian mythology.

http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/D...sisgenesis.htm



The full article can be read at that site, along with links to several other articles. And that's just one source, from one professor. There are numerous others.
Really? You're giving me an article written by someone who sounds like they are writing in high school? Dude is apparently a guy with a MA in Education, not Religious Studies, not Anthropology, and hasn't really had it beaten into his head that you shouldn't use I statements in papers. If someone keeps saying "I believe", it usually means they don't have enough of a leg to stand on.

Dude is quite the idiot, we know someone didn't just sit down and write Genesis all at once drawing upon Babylonian mythology. Genesis 1 and 2 alone come from two very different sources, which is why they are two different creation myths. The first one is probably the myth of the northern tribes of Israel, the ones who called him Elohim. 2 is probably a myth of southern Israel (Judah), who called him YHWH. If you get a copy of The New Oxford Annotated Bible with Apocrypha, they'll mark some passages letting you know where they might have fit in the JEDP theory (which is now a lot more complicated than just JEDP, but its not a bad starting point if you want to learn about how the Old Testament got pulled together.) Seven days aren't even in the 2nd account and Adam is created early on in the account, it doesn't accumulate with him. Again, Genesis deals with two very different myths. He doesn't take seven days and then goes on with Eden.

Does the account sometimes draw upon mythology? Yeah. Elohim intentionally doesn't call the sun sun or the moon moon, just the greater and lesser lights. That's a snub to their neighbours. The earliest account of Genesis being written isn't under exile in Babylon (JEDP had it before that the Priestly account was written at this time) but under the rule of King Solomon, at least the second chapter, and the first being compiled by the northern kingdom after Israel split after his death. You don't have to be enslaved by a people to sometimes borrow symbols and motifs. It wasn't something that was created in a vacuum, but for fucks sake, identical? Marduk is all loving, all powerful Elohim?

Your source is a bit better than Zeitgeist, but not much. You're just believing a guy who isn't qualified on the internet.
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Old 10-20-2011, 09:35 AM   #175
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Elohim in Genesis 1 is not embodied, but transcendent, omnipotent, all powerful and not anthropomorphic. Marduk didn't create anything, but through his actions things were created much by accident. YHWH is anthropomorphic in Genesis 2, but still have direct intent and doesn't spend a whole lot of describing how he made the world, EXCEPT THAT THE ORDER CHANGES.
I'm guessing you didn't read the full article I linked.

In Sumerian myth, it may have been more accidental, but in Babylonian myth, Marduk created many things (to include the whole of Babylon, as a temple for the gods to rest when they descended from heaven). He created and controlled the storms that he used to defeat Tiamat and her forces; he split her body in two to create the sky and the earth; he created clouds from her saliva and the Tigres and Euphrates from her eyes; he created the mountains from her head. He then created the moon and the sun and gave them to Sin and Shamash, respectively, and reassigned powers to the other gods as he saw fit - Ea/Enki being in charge of the earth (creating life). He bacame ruler of all the gods, later instructing Enki to create the first Man, Adapa, from the blood and bone of Kingu (the rebelous god who accompanied Tiamat in her attack), mixed with clay of the earth. Sometimes this is unclear. Some state Marduk created Adapa himself, others state Enki did so. "His job will be to serve the gods so that they may rest at ease." (In the Myth of Adapa, Adapa is presented a chance to gain immortality by eating the food of the gods, but refuses it.)

Babylonians didn't believe women came from the same source. If they did, they didn't specify it. There's virtually no mention of where they came from as I recall. Inanna, however, is referred to as "Lady of the Rib" as she was created by the gods to heal.

The stories seem to cross back and forth between Sumerian myth and Babylonian myth, so it really depends on which version you're reading as to which god did what, but the Babylonians modified the Sumerian myths in order to make Marduk the champion of all the gods.

Just as a side note, it seems Sumerians and Babylonians both recognized a difference between "savage man" and those whom the gods created, though I'm not sure if this is actually specified anywhere in their mythologies. I just think it's worth investigating, especially with all the questions about "If Adam and Eve were first, where did all the others come from", etc.

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herp a derp a derp, where is your evidence that she was always considered the wife of adam, from prebiblical times? Your two encyclopedia sources proved you wrong.
Right here, in post #140.
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Originally Posted by Me
I believe you are right Saya so I must apologize. I can't find explicit reference of her being Adam's first wife prior to the Alphabet.
And I went on to provide examples of Lilith demonstrated in older myths. The encyclopedia articles I quoted do not contradict me, they prove that Lilith is older than her Hebrew sources, as I was trying to state. My only true error was thinking that the concept of Lilith, as Adam's wife, was older than it actually is. It doesn't mean I wasn't aware of all the previous incarnations of her, I was only off on the timeline. And, as that article states, her name derives from Sumerian, not Hebrew. She has always been related to wind in Sumerian, as her name translates.

It is my understanding that Lilith is, at least in part, a reincarnation of Ninlil, the South Wind, who Adapa defeated in Sumerian/Babylonian myth, and feared he would be punished by Anu for doing so. As I see it, this is another connection to Adam and Lilith, but that's strictly my theory, I can't back it up unless I find some other verifiable source. A possible connection to Lilith being associated with the underworld may be the story of Enlil and Ninlil, who were both cast out of Dilmun (who some believe is the Sumerian version of Eden) and roamed the underworld for a while. But again, its my theory based on the names and events of the myth, I have no proof of it being ligit.
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