The abortion clinic down the street from me...

AngelikDemonik · 02-14-2008, 10:10 AM

I live right down the street from a family planning clinic, which offers many services to women, including providing abortions. I am very pro-choice, as many of you probably know. I have no problem with pro-life people, but the type of people in the photos I took today absolutely sicken me. These are the types of people that harass women going into out and of these clinics, preach their belifes to anyone they come into contact with, harass the doctors and nurses that provide care for women in these places, and even go as far as to blow up these types of clinics and shoot doctors who perfrom abortions (look up Dr. David Gunn).

There is usually one man that stands outside of the clinic down the street from me everyday, rain or shine. He has a van covered with pictures of supposed "First term aborted fetuses", and often harasses young girls going into that clinic. He annoys me. My father once set a wire-hanger down next to him.

Today, there was about six or seven people out there. Some had signs, some had little booklets, and one was carring a huge cross. My sister and I were driving home from the grocery store and seen all of this. I decided to drive home real quick, grab my camera, and take a few pictures....

This is the man that stands outside there everyday: http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b6...tionvan005.jpg

This is his van: http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b6...van001.jpg.jpg

Notice the man with the blue and yellow jacket--he has a big cross in his hands: http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b6...tionvan003.jpg

This guy started to wave to my sister, who was taking the pictures (I was driving): http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b6...tionvan004.jpg

I will never understand why pro-life people like those above choose to do things like that. I've never heard of a pro-choice group standing outside of a materinty ward with signs, harassing new mothers. If someone is pro-life, that is great...But don't condem others and preach what you believe just because it's YOUR CHOICE to believe in that. If you don't like abortion...don't get one...but don't dictate other peoples' lives...

AngelikDemonik · 02-14-2008, 10:12 AM

I'm not sure if photobucket tagged the picture of the man's van, but let me see if this link works for it, if not, just look at the rest of my album, and you'll see it there.

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b6...tionvan001.jpg

AngelikDemonik · 02-14-2008, 10:22 AM

Probably not. They probably also don't even know it's illegal to stand that close to the entrance and to prevent people from going into there.

Dyce · 02-14-2008, 10:37 AM

holy crap i know where that place is.

JCC · 02-14-2008, 10:47 AM

You should go up to that idiot and tell him that the revolting pictures that he has are of illegal abortions, which wouldn't happen if pro-misogny imbeciles like him didn't think it an affront to a worthless god.

Beneath the Shadows · 02-14-2008, 11:01 AM

I got yelled at by a similar group in San Diego when I pointed out that the pictures they had on their signs were the result of making abortion illegal. I was told that I was a sinner and bound for the darkest pits of hell. I asked them to save me a seat.

Godslayer Jillian · 02-14-2008, 02:44 PM

I can't share your feelings. The guy is up front of a building tat does something he doesn't believe in, protesting and giving out to people his information.
That's great. That's admirable.
If he's giving away erroneous information, then that's a whole different problem and you should correct him; even give him a bunch of accurate pro-life information. You can't get mad at them because they don't agree with you; so if you have a problem with what they're giving out, and it is a justifiable reason, then try to fix that, but don't think they don't have the right of doing this.
I just came from protesting against the opening of a 19th century smelter in the heart of my city. We were about a hundred people, a friend of us motivating us with a megaphone, another friend giving papers to the people going inside the building where they'd decide to open it or not. We lost. After the hearing the guys from TCEQ decided the smelter deserves to be opened, and we protested inside the building, calling the lawyer of the smelter a killer, asking her whether she doesn't care about the students and children (20,000 students and a whole poor town live at 2 miles from it) and we promised this wouldn't be the end of it.
Wasn't that even more 'harassing' than what your guys are doing? You're only call it harassing because it makes people uncomfortable. But wouldn't you be doing the same if it were something that concerned you? Say, killing baby seals for sport has become the new vacation trend in your city; wouldn't you employ the same extremely conservative and reserved tactics these pro-lifers are doing?
Hating people that are doing their own little share of direct action is clear proof that society is becoming a massive blob of apathy where no one can do anything because it will hurt another group's ego.
Fahrenheit 451, anyone?

JCC · 02-14-2008, 02:59 PM

Well yeah, but since we disagree with their ideology we inevitably find it annoying. If someone were doing a protest endorsing a Neo-Nazi revival somewhere near you, would you get pissed or would you say "Aw, look at the little Neo-Nazi's fighting for Holocaust #2"?

Godslayer Jillian · 02-14-2008, 03:02 PM

I would get mad about their ideas, not about their methods.

JCC · 02-14-2008, 03:19 PM

If Neo-Nazi's blew up a synagogue you wouldn't fault their methods?

If Neo-Nazi's harrassed black people and hurled abuse at them, you wouldn't fault their methods?

I think you need to decide the limits to your liberalistic approach.

Godslayer Jillian · 02-14-2008, 03:22 PM

To begin with: Godwin's Law!
And now that that's mentioned, where did we start talking about blowing up a synagogue?
Because they're neo-nazis that's strict standard protocol? You have just added methods which weren't mentioned.
Your mention of neo-nazis to compare pro-lifers only works as a reductio ad hitlerum because you only changed the aggressors, but now it turns out you also want to change the actions we were talking about, so how does that comparation apply?

Lapin · 02-14-2008, 03:25 PM

You just blew what he said completely out of proportion

Peaceful protest does not equal a violent act. The beauty of the country is that you can peacefully protest. It is still illegal to murder.

Sleazy_Spade · 02-14-2008, 03:27 PM

They of course have the right to stand outside and protest just like anyone else has the right to stand outside and protest. But there are laws and limits to the tactics and proximity with which you can do so.

If a 16 year old girl wanted to go in and get an abortion so that she could finish school, and a big 30 year old man at least twice her size walked up to her and told her he thinks that abortion is wrong and she doesn't need one and either stood between her and the door or simply stood next to her. Do you think she would have the emotional OR physical strength to protect her right to have that abortion? If the people protesting do not respect the fact that other people have rights too, and their protest is infringing on them, then they are no better than the "brown shirts" that formed the early gestapo and Intimidated people into voting hitler into office via their sheer presence.

Intimidation is a powerful weapon. Its been used against many people during the holocaust and even against blacks in this country following the civil war. You don't have to voice your threat or even carry out your threat. The simple fear of being harmed in many cases is more than enough to dissaude people from a course of action they are already uneasy about or upset over. Even if they really want to do it, its still not an easy thing to do.

JCC · 02-14-2008, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

To begin with: Godwin's Law!
And now that that's mentioned, where did we start talking about blowing up a synagogue?
Because they're neo-nazis that's strict standard protocol? You have just added methods which weren't mentioned.
Your mention of neo-nazis to compare pro-lifers only works as a reductio ad hitlerum because you only changed the aggressors, but now it turns out you also want to change the actions we were talking about, so how does that comparation apply?

Pro-lifers blow up abortion clinics, as is aforementioned in the original post.

@Lapin: Pro-Lifers do not go in for peaceful protest as often as they do for violent protest or for unneccessary harrassment. While by all means they can protest, there's no need to interfere in the lives of people looking for family planning, especially when a lot of young women are already tentative about abortions.

Lapin · 02-14-2008, 03:29 PM

I didn't say that they shouldn't follow the law. They're not supposed to be on the property, if I remember right. But they can still protest.

They need to get some security guards outside of that place to escort people if the need arises.

The issue is, that just because I find what people say hurtful towards me, doesn't mean that they can't advocate their beliefs. Hitler had my family shoved in gas chambers and expiremented on. Neo-Nazis scare the living hell out of me because of this. But they can say what they please.

Sleazy_Spade · 02-14-2008, 03:30 PM

The simple fact that a security guard would be needed or helpful is testament to the fact that the pro-lifer's are overstepping their rights and have moved into the real of harassment.

Godslayer Jillian · 02-14-2008, 03:32 PM

Ha! I just won. You have also compared something trivial to World War 2. Therefore, by the internet rules, I win.
Besides, who the fuck gets intimidated in real life? Seriously, I just can't see it happening. There's no reason for violence; they haven't showed you anything that hints of violence, and yet you feel intimidated?
That's not intimidation, that's just another word for not wanting you ego to be hurt, just like using the word "harassment"

The worst part about your topic is your mention of "laws and limits". Show me when they have broken the law. And now explain me why this is necessary. You want people to comply with law, why? What's so special about a government that claims right of assembly and yet still lawfully limits it by declaring free speech manifestations if you don't get it approved first?

Lapin · 02-14-2008, 03:33 PM

It's not harassment to stand across the street and say what they believe. But just standing there can be intimidating to someone in such a position. A guard can put a barrier between her and them, and help her regain her nerve.

And Jillian? I'm on your side.

Godslayer Jillian · 02-14-2008, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCC

Pro-lifers blow up abortion clinics, as is aforementioned in the original post.

And catholics have had the Inquisitions. And muslims have the Shariah laws. And jews stoned adulterers to death. And protestants killed Catholics. And anarchists killed a president. And it is in their ideals for communists to have a violent overthrow. And Americans have lynched blacks.
Let's not forget aboutu any of those as to not to ever support them because we're damned to separate one individual from another.

JCC · 02-14-2008, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

Ha! I just won. You have also compared something trivial to World War 2. Therefore, by the internet rules, I win.
Besides, who the fuck gets intimidated in real life? Seriously, I just can't see it happening. There's no reason for violence; they haven't showed you anything that hints of violence, and yet you feel intimidated?
That's not intimidation, that's just another word for not wanting you ego to be hurt, just like using the word "harassment"

The worst part about your topic is your mention of "laws and limits". Show me when they have broken the law. And now explain me why this is necessary. You want people to comply with law, why? What's so special about a government that claims right of assembly and yet still lawfully limits it by declaring free speech manifestations if you don't get it approved first?

How the fuck is pro-life protest trivial when they beat or even just intimidate young women?! By the rules of common sense I come to the conclusion that you're so desperate to be liberal that you have no idea how the world works.
I'll tell you how you get intimidated. You're a **** victim, and some stupid fundamentalist dickhead is harrassing you with leaflets and posters telling you how you'll go to hell if you don't allow the mass of cells fermenting in your womb to become a life that's a byproduct of sexual assault. You're a woman of diminutive figure and nobody can tell this guy to lay off, how can that not be intimidating? You're ignorant to the reality of the emotional stress of protests.
BLAH. If you're going to pull the 'Fuck the government, freedom of speech rules!' bullshit then I can't be bothered to discuss anything with you.

EDIT: You can't seriously use the wrongs of other groups of people to say that we should ignore other wrongs, that's not earth logic. That's crazy logic. That's not logic at all. It's stupid.

Godslayer Jillian · 02-14-2008, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCC

How the fuck is pro-life protest trivial when they beat young women?!

When the fuck did these protesters beat a young woman?
[quotee] By the rules of common sense I come to the conclusion that you're so desperate to be liberal that you have no idea how the world works.[/quote] By my experience and not an absolutist approach of "common sense" I can see that you cannot separate one incident from another so that the world to you is but one massive stain of perpetuity.

Quote:

I'll tell you how you get intimidated. You're a **** victim, and some stupid fundamentalist dickhead is harrassing you with leaflets and posters telling you how you'll go to hell if you don't allow the mass of cells fermenting in your womb to become a life that's a byproduct of sexual assault.

And she won't march forward yet, because...?

Quote:

You're a woman of diminutive figure and nobody can tell this guy to lay off, how can that not be intimidating?

Because he can't do anything physical about it; and you have to risk it for your own sake.

Quote:

You're ignorant to the reality of the emotional stress of protests.

Let's compare the number of protests we've been on before arbitrarily judging me deficient, alright?

Quote:

BLAH. If you're going to pull the 'Fuck the government, freedom of speech rules!' bullshit then I can't be bothered to discuss anything with you.

If you refuse to talk to me because I have different ideas, how the fuck are you any different than the people you're bitching about? Except at least they still express their own rather than believing themselves too superior to dignify someone with an argument.

Sleazy_Spade · 02-14-2008, 03:41 PM

Your own rights do not extend passed the reach of your arm. As soon as you begin to force your opinions or beliefs on others you are outside the realm of free speech and outside the realm of protest. You are legally entitle to protest to your heart's content. But you cannot force someone to listen if they do not want to, nor can you corner them and make avoiding you impossible. By them standing in such close proximity they are harassing people that are simply exercising their own rights.

You think people Don't get intimidated? How do you think people get mugged? Do you think that idiot with the knife *wants* to spend his life in jail? No he wants you to be intimidated into giving him what he wants. Fear is a very powerful influence.

As per my example earlier. If a 16 year old girl needs an abortion, maybe her parents are with her maybe they aren't, Do you honestly think that a crowd outside of the clinic yelling how much they hate her and she's a bad person and a sinner etc, and Brandishing gorey pictures that may or may not be acurate, does not have the ability to inspire fear into a person? And that fear compiled with the trauma of needing the abortion in the first place? Regardless of whether she actually has the emotional fortitude to make it through the proceedure, it will take years for her to heal from the emotional trauma of the event. And that my friend is not a peaceful protest, That is trying to coerce others into following your beliefs.

Sleazy_Spade · 02-14-2008, 03:46 PM

Jillian, he could do something phyiscal about it, He *could* beat the hell out of you or kill you as vengence for an angry god, as has already happened at *other* clinics. Yes it may be illegal, but that doesn't stop murder and assault from happening does it? That is why its intimidating, You dont know what this big man next to you that seems angry and hateful is going to do or not do to you. And that is why this type of protest is not valid or peaceful.

Godslayer Jillian · 02-14-2008, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCC

EDIT: You can't seriously use the wrongs of other groups of people to say that we should ignore other wrongs, that's not earth logic. That's crazy logic. That's not logic at all. It's stupid.

What is not logic is this, and I shall prove it.
You have been saying all along:
If Q then P. (If abortionists are evil (or whatever) it is because they have used physical violence to prove their point.)
Then you declare P, and infer Q by this. Make a truth table and you'll see that you cannot infer Q from P. You can infer P from Q, as that would be "IF they have used physical violence, then they're evil" but is your premise right in this occasion? Can you say that these pro-lifers have committed violence? No! So where do you get your conclusion?

Meanwhile, my argument cannot be logical because it wasn't a procedure, so calling it illogical means nothing. I just provided you with other examples for you to apply your logic to. If you think the outcomes of those are ridiculous, then what does that tell you about your own logic?

AngelikDemonik · 02-14-2008, 03:49 PM

What they are doing is illegal. After Dr. David Gunn was killed by an anti-abortion supporter, there were laws passed that state that if you are protesting infront of ANY health care clinic you: Cannot block the entrance to that clinic and you must be so many feet away from that clinic, if protesting. I've seen them block the entrance more than one time, and I've heard them taunt girls going into the clinic. "Burn in hell, murderer!" "God doesn't love murderers!" "Only sluts have abortions!"...That's beautiful?

Like I said, I live literally right down the street from this place--I see this crap everyday. Every weekday morning, one of the first things I see is that van with the pictures of the mutilated fetuses and the piles of dead Jews, and all I can think is "How many school buses go past this area everyday causing young children to see that crap?" Not to mention, their pictures aren't even accurate. I know what a fetus looks before it's born. Those pictures are NOT of first term fetuses, which they claim them to be.

What about the ones that threaten the Nurses and Doctors with physical violence? Or the patients? Or the ones who blow up the clinics...That's beautiful?

If they stood across the street from that clinic with their posters and didn't say anything DEROGATORY to the patients going in there, I'd have respect for them because they were voicing their opinions PEACEFULLY.

Might I add, the vast of majority of these pro-lifers are Republican--Many of whom (not all, but a lot) are against universal healthcare and providing wellfare for the poor (i.e. young, single mothers). They don't want women to have abortions, but then they don't want to help out poor mothers, either.