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Old 01-05-2006, 04:48 AM   #1
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The Despoiling of America

I am wary of evangelical christians, neocons, and the influence both have on the government. This is a very long article with an extensive bibliography that cites every claim the author makes, some of which are mind boggling if true.

Pat Robertson and the Straussian Neocons seek to bring their form of a "more perfect" christian dominion to the US--doing away with the separation of church and state provision of the first amendment--which is called, appropriately, "Dominionism."

The Despoiling of America
How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State
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Old 01-05-2006, 10:36 AM   #2
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So, can this thread be deleted, or does someone want to back up or disclaim these notions.

Let me go on to say that I'm pretty sure that there's christian/conservative faction of influential people in the U.S. that would like the border between church and state to disapear, but even though I (thank goth) consider it an aberration that won't happen, I still fail to see what that has to do with the title. Because I'm the one who passes for an american-hater around here sometimes and US people are usually the ones (other than Sternn) to come up with these threads.
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Old 01-05-2006, 07:33 PM   #3
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Right on! I dig the hostility. Not having written the article, I can't verify it's complete authenticity. However, it comes with a rather extensive bibliography complete with urls to each citation. I've gone and checked several of them out, but unfortunately, it would take a great deal of time to QA the entire bibliography. But the info I sought to research for myself checked out.

What particularly is the point about which you kids are all lathered up? Do ya just love the guy, or what? I'm not always online, but feel free to attempt to shame me in a political debate should you feel it necessary. Did any of you bother to read the entire article, or did you balk at the first paragraph? I have loads of complaints about Straussian neocons, if interested.
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Old 01-05-2006, 08:02 PM   #4
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They didn't get "all lathered up." They simply asked for specific proof to back up your claims. You then proceeded to insult their political views and, essentially, pick a fight, even though Maelstrom agreed with you to a point, and the rest never once criticized your views.
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Old 01-05-2006, 08:59 PM   #5
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can some one tell the poor lass from australia what a neocon is.

(and no i cant be bothered reading the article.)
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Old 01-05-2006, 09:23 PM   #6
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there's no real difference in this article versus any other insanely radical attempt to perusade the masses via a narrow-minded, specific slant on the government - although i'm not sure just how many people an article like this reaches, erego the "masses" may mean only one or two radically inclined christians. personally, i don't see how pat robertson's decisions have or can, in any way, dictate the direction of the country.

the article mainly deals with the ideology purported through the 700 club, which has been pat robertson's podium from which he has bleated his christian views concerning whatever.

as someone who does not see the world in that light, very-little-to-none of what was written in the article makes an impact on my own views. i'll shelve this firmly inside the 'conspiracy theory folder' of how the government works and politely ask for whatever is next.
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Old 01-05-2006, 09:25 PM   #7
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as for you, mortalitas - fucking delicious girl - this is as good an explanation as any other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocons..._United_States
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Old 01-06-2006, 10:00 AM   #8
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Personally, E_E, I think it's higher than Pat Robertson.
Your president advocates the teaching of Selective Evolution as an alternative to Darwin.
But the US system is designed so that the country isn't easily "overthrown" like this, so even if Dubya had a specific agenda and not just personal beliefs, they'd still get nowhere.

THAT is what makes the US constitution so great.

It takes something like 9/11 for something like the Patriot Act to happen. It would take something very extreme like that to turn the US into a full-fledged christian fundamentalist police state.
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Old 01-06-2006, 04:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Circle V
They didn't get "all lathered up." They simply asked for specific proof to back up your claims. You then proceeded to insult their political views and, essentially, pick a fight, even though Maelstrom agreed with you to a point, and the rest never once criticized your views.
I believe I wasn't the first in this thread to cast an insult...

I'll describe what is happening and someone tell me if they disagree:

Pat Robertson described the tactics to achieve "christian control" of the US in his book, The New World Order. He regularly consults with Bush. In 1992, Robertson’s coalition distributed 40 million copies of the “Family Values Voters Guide” in more than 100,000 churches nationwide. After the 1994 congressional elections, for the first time in 40 years, the GOP took control of Congress, with 44 of the 52 new Republicans in the House owing their victories to the support of the pro-life groups and the Christian Coalition. The religious right also gained control of the Republican Party apparatus in at least 31 states. And the Christian Coalition saw its numbers continue to multiply.

So, The First Step: Control of Congress...check!

The Second Step: Weaken the Judiciary and Revamp the Balance of Powers

Robertson wanted to reduce or eliminate the power of the judiciary. He denied that the Constitution provides a system of checks and balances between the three branches of government. Instead, he saw the legislative branch as the dominant center of power in our nation, and accordingly wanted to make some changes, which we will look at shortly. Paramount in his thinking was his denial that the judiciary is an equal branch of the government. Justices Thomas and Scalia are completely on board with Robertson's philosophy: they are the 2 Straussian neocons (followers of Leo Strauss' brand of Machiavellian neoconservatism) on the Supreme Court. Samuel Alito is a carbon copy of Thomas and Scalia. In fact, their judical views are identical. Alito's confirmation hearings begin Monday.

So, stay tuned for this one. Three neocon justices on the Supreme Court. If that doesn't put some fear regarding losing your civil rights and your right to privacy, you just aren't paying attention. But this stage is all but in the bag.

The Third Step: Increase the Power of the President - check!

A joint congressional resolution passed on Sept. 14, 2001, authorizing the president to respond to the terror attacks, concluding that President Bush has the power to deploy military force “preemptively” against any terrorist groups or countries that supported them. Here is an excerpt:

Quote:
Whereas, on September 11, 2001, acts of treacherous violence were committed against the United States and its citizens; and

Whereas, such acts render it both necessary and appropriate that the United States exercise its rights to self-defense and to protect United States citizens both at home and abroad; and

Whereas, in light of the threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States posed by these grave acts of violence; and

Whereas, such acts continue to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States; and

Whereas, the President has authority under the Constitution to take action to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled.
This resolution has been broadly interpreted by the white house as authorizing the president to act “above the law”, including giving the president the power to circumvent the Constitution in the recent wiretap controversy. He has stated that we are in a "War on Terror" which means his broadly increased powers will last as long as there is terrorism. And just today, both he and Rice were quoted as saying the War on Terror will be indefinite. How convenient…

The Fourth Step: Domestic Morality and Control – stay tuned…

The fourth step in Robertson’s plan was the imposition of the glorious “biblical” morality of secular fundamentalism upon our land. Of utmost importance in achieving this initiative, that pesky “separation of church and state” clause in the first amendment would have to be dealt with. I submit to you an excerpt of the Texas Republican Party Platform of 2002:
Quote:
“1. GOVERNMENT: We reclaim freedom of religious expression in public on government property, and freedom from government interference. Support government display of Ten Commandments.
Dispel the "myth" of the separation of church and state. A strong and vibrant private sector [should be] unencumbered by excessive government regulation. Oppose Campaign Finance Reform. Oppose any form of gun control. Abolish: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms; Position of Surgeon General; EPA; Department of Energy; Department of Housing and Urban Development; Department of Education; Department of Commerce and Labor; National Endowment for the Arts.
4. FAMILY: We believe that traditional marriage is a legal and moral commitment between a man and a woman. We recognize that the family is the foundational unit of a healthy society and consists of those related by blood, marriage, or adoption. The family is responsible for its own welfare, education, moral training, conduct, and property.
“The practice of sodomy tears at the heart of our society... The party oppose[s] decriminalization of sodomy. Oppose all forms of abortion - even in cases of **** or incest. We unequivocally oppose United States Senate ratification of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.
“5. EDUCATION: We call for the abolition of the U.S. Department of Education and the prohibition of the transfer of any of its functions to any other federal agency.
“Support official prayer in public schools Oppose Early Childhood Development Programs. We support ... a program based upon biblical principles... Terminate bilingual education. Since Secular Humanism is recognized by the United States Supreme Court as a religion ... Secular Humanism should be subjected to the same state and federal laws as any other recognized religions.
Step Five: Moral Leadership

Justice Scalia stated, “The Constitution that I interpret and apply is not living but dead…It means today not what current society…thinks it ought to mean, but what it meant when it was adopted.”

An excerpt:

Quote:
"For me, therefore, the constitutionality of the death penalty is not a difficult, soul–wrenching question. It was clearly permitted when the Eighth Amendment was adopted (not merely for murder, by the way, but for all felonies—including, for example, horse–thieving, as anyone can verify by watching a western movie). And so it is clearly permitted today. There is plenty of room within this system for “evolving standards of decency,” but the instrument of evolution (or, if you are more tolerant of the Court’s approach, the herald that evolution has occurred) is not the nine lawyers who sit on the Supreme Court of the United States, but the Congress of the United States and the legislatures of the fifty states, who may, within their own jurisdictions, restrict or abolish the death penalty as they wish.

and

"Government authority is derived from God and not from the people."
So, how do you think he'll rule on issues of separatiojn of church and state. The answer lied in the opinions he has already submitted during his tenure.

Don't believe me, do the research yourselves.
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Old 01-06-2006, 05:09 PM   #10
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Apefist, Hon, Pat Robertson doesn't have a lot of credit with most thinking people. This post reads like conspiracy theory/alarmist bullshit that's really low on my personal radar.

I'm far more concerned with gay rights and the state of the world in reguards to the middle east than I am in what old Robertson might pull out of his ass.
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Old 01-06-2006, 05:17 PM   #11
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lol. I can relate. He really is lunatic fringe these days.

Quote:
It takes something like 9/11 for something like the Patriot Act to happen. It would take something very extreme like that to turn the US into a full-fledged christian fundamentalist police state.
Excellent point, although there is the cautionary tale of McCarthy's rise to fame. Lately, however, we have far more cynics who call it like we see it. I don't think Joseph McCarthy could pull off the witchhunt today, the way he did back then. Too many differring opinions, and way too many nonchristians in this country for us to go all in one religious direction, methinks. If we did go fanatic, it prolly would be more likely to be politics than any religious belief, misapplied or not, that united us.
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Old 01-07-2006, 08:49 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom
Personally, E_E, I think it's higher than Pat Robertson.
Your president advocates the teaching of Selective Evolution as an alternative to Darwin.
But the US system is designed so that the country isn't easily "overthrown" like this, so even if Dubya had a specific agenda and not just personal beliefs, they'd still get nowhere.

THAT is what makes the US constitution so great.
the u.s. constitution IS great. and despite what george dubya or pat roberston (how in the fuck did he suddenly rise to become something significant?) and the 700 club WANT taught in school, the theory of intelligent design is being pulled from the curriculum country-wide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apefist
So, The First Step: Control of Congress...check!
there's no 'check' here. working people in this country are sick and fucking tired of having enforced racism and preferential treatment be the specials of the day. the democrats have only those two flavors on their platform.

why is it so hard to fathom that the working class in america finally had enough with the do-nothings and decided to vote for the party that doesn't want (or at least says they'll do something about) continuing to expand payouts for the ones who eat bon-bons and watch jerry springer all day as their contribution to society?

Quote:
Originally Posted by apefist
The Second Step: Weaken the Judiciary and Revamp the Balance of Powers
how does moving the judiciary toward a more conservative ruling body equate to "weakening"? your explanation does nothing more than fuel conspiracy theories.


Quote:
Originally Posted by apefist
The Third Step: Increase the Power of the President - check!
there is no increased power to the president. the constitution demands that the president of the united states act in order to defend the citizenry from a clear and present danger. at the time, a clear and present danger was believed to exist, not just here but around the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apefist
The Fourth Step: Domestic Morality and Control – stay tuned…
how did you get so fearful? are you that really so easily intimidated that a few radical conspiracy theorists are able to strike paranoia in your heart?

Quote:
Originally Posted by apefist
Step Five: Moral Leadership
bah. 'traditional' values are now called 'moral' values. terminology means nothing. america was founded on certain principles. i have no problem with those principles. just because a minority takes issue with the way america operates doesn't mean the majority should suddenly cave in to their whining.
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Old 01-12-2006, 02:36 PM   #13
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Talking

Not fearful, just cautious. Bushco is just using Pat Robertson's plan, not him. His book is the "bible" for raising a grass roots effort to get christians out voting for candidates with a certain agenda, i.e., overturning Roe v. Wade, bringing the nation "back to god" by removing the separation of church & state clause from the first amendment.

Edible_eye, I respect your POV, but I'm no conspiratorialist. The fact is, none of the "powers that be" deny any of the above I posted. Hell, they're Gung Ho to tell you all about it. From your responses, I'm guessing you're somewhat conservative--that's fine--but regular dyed in the wool conservatives who don't want religion muddling up government are becoming few and far between. Good luck with that. I'm an independent because I think both parties (and their spin-offs) suck.

But for laughs, go read the Texas Republican platform. The people I am describing (and am wary of) all seem to come from Texas. Scary. Thanks for taking time to read and respond as opposed to those who posted for comic relief...heh...
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Old 01-12-2006, 04:57 PM   #14
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Hey, did you know that Bush doesn't let Wiccan soldiers profess their religion?
Sure, they have catholic priests, christian pastors, and stuff for the soldiers, but he won't allow wiccans to show their religion
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Old 01-12-2006, 07:42 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apefist
Not fearful, just cautious. Bushco is just using Pat Robertson's plan, not him. His book is the "bible" for raising a grass roots effort to get christians out voting for candidates with a certain agenda, i.e., overturning Roe v. Wade, bringing the nation "back to god" by removing the separation of church & state clause from the first amendment.
not for nothing, but this george bush - pat robertson affiliation to create a new world seems to have escaped the mainstream media which leads me to believe that whatever sources you're citing are small, severely slanted or biased sites hell-bent on forcing their obscure view on the four or five readers they cater to. after all, most news organizations loathe the fact that george bush exists, never mind that he's president. anything that might thrust another spear into his hide would be expolited for every ounce it's worth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apefist
Edible_eye, I respect your POV, but I'm no conspiratorialist. The fact is, none of the "powers that be" deny any of the above I posted.
i respect your point of view as well, but the fact remains - many hypotheses about how the government is influenced are tossed at the white house from all points. i've even heard something about aliens being in charge of bush...

the point is - the white house doesn't need to deny every hackneyed accusation thrown at it in order for such accusations to be considered invalid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apefist
Hell, they're Gung Ho to tell you all about it.
they're "gung ho" to state that they believe in god and take inspiration from a christian standpoint. they're also "gung ho" to state that the law is the law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apefist
From your responses, I'm guessing you're somewhat conservative--that's fine--but regular dyed in the wool conservatives who don't want religion muddling up government are becoming few and far between. Good luck with that. I'm an independent because I think both parties (and their spin-offs) suck.
i'd define myself as a libertarian, or a radical independant. i'd be happy with a government that supported the military, the postal system, the roads and the national parks. and that's pretty much it.

that said, the notion of a man, our president, ascribing to the tenets of christianity as a guideline for how he lives his life does not necessarily alarm me - any more than a man ascribing to the tenets of judaism, protestantism, et al while looking for inspiration and guidance in his endeavors. discipline is discipline.

those who voted for bush knew full well his religious leanings when they voted for him -and if they didn't, shame on them for casting an uninformed ballot. he won the majority. that's democracy. and he'll be gone in a couple of years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apefist
But for laughs, go read the Texas Republican platform. The people I am describing (and am wary of) all seem to come from Texas. Scary. Thanks for taking time to read and respond as opposed to those who posted for comic relief...heh...
i read through some of it and to me, it's just a lot of hot air, much like those who bash christmas, saying such a celebration is offensive and needs to be abolished.

the bottom line - christianity is under attack in this country. between the recent church scandals and the left-based initiative to destroy the basic principles under which this country was formed - those of judeo-christian values - whatever texas requires of their politicians, it just doesn't hold water.
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Old 01-12-2006, 08:01 PM   #16
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Hey, did you know that Bush doesn't let Wiccan soldiers profess their religion?
Sure, they have catholic priests, christian pastors, and stuff for the soldiers, but he won't allow wiccans to show their religion
godslayer - you continually throw out inflammatory garbage about the government with nothing to back it up. we get it - you despise george bush - but please, try to concoct something semi-intelligent when you bash him.

this is from the religion news blog, contra costa times -

"Wiccans represent a small fraction of the military, roughly 1,500 among 1.4 million active personnel, but the Pentagon wants to accommodate their faith. The military trains chaplains to meet the religious needs of all service members without compromising their own religious beliefs, said Col. Richard Hum, executive director of the Armed Forces Chaplains Board at the Defense Department."
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Old 01-12-2006, 08:21 PM   #17
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Thanks for clearing that up, e_e. In addition, Wicca is a religion formally recognized by both the US government and Department of the Army. To do as you were saying, and not allow a member of the Armed Services to practice the religion of Wicca, goes against military code outlining religious discrimination, which is defined as:

"Any action, intended or unintended, that unlawfully or unjustly results in unequal treatment of a person or groups based on religion and for which distinctions are not rational considerations."

Many covens practice on military bases. In 1999, when there was an uproar in Washington about it (which was swiftly defeated), there were 6 known covens on various bases and Wiccan study programs on countless other bases and ships. As far as I know, since I just went and grabbed that definition out of the current training manual for the Department of the Army, that hasn't changed, unless of course you care to provide the exact bill that Bush passed that would state otherwise.
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Old 01-12-2006, 09:07 PM   #18
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Please. If Pat Robertson were from another country he'd be a "Radical Cleric".
Beautiful. Well put. Normally people wouldn't look twice at him, but desperate times call for desperate measures! Somewhere, a group of people are sitting in a warehouse full of Kerry/Edwards memerobilia. Throwing a few yard signs on the fire every so often to keep warm, they refuse to accept their loss not so long ago and were looking for a way to win the election. Those hopes were dashed at the site of Barbara Boxer, an elected representative of their party, crying on worldwide television when it was official that Bush was to be our duly elected president.
"Hey you know that crazy guy that's on TV in the afternoon when most people are at work but we're sitting on someone's couch working on our protest signs? He's a christian! Isn't our evil dictator George W a Christian too? OOH he's a Republican! Quick, let's get this to our representatives Sean Penn, Michael Moore and that fat guy who murdered that young girl...what was his...oh yeah Ted Kennedy! Let's make sure we....dude...is that a Starbucks latte you're drinking? Dude what the hell? Didn't we agree they are an evil corporate giant? Uh DUDE...they are a business that makes a profit helloooo....and I smell soap. Who here is using soap with actual soap in it?"

There comes a time when you must accept defeat.
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Old 01-12-2006, 10:52 PM   #19
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Considering that this section of the board is filled with threads that are predominantly anti-Bush, and in many cases it's the same rhetoric about the evil conservative oil cabal etc...and considering there are others here that will bring up the exact same thing in this section no matter what (Iraq, and that isn't a slam at the person(s) it is a poing) it seems odd to accuse me or anyone else here of doing anything "everytime".



And I'm not sure what you are threatening with the smear but go ahead. Clinton? I don't remember any Conservative protesting on the day he was sworn in...
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Old 01-13-2006, 05:01 PM   #20
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Oh ok, sry for my erroneous data. I suppose it wasn't true then.
Hehe, yeah, I don't like George Bush. My cousin was sent to Iraq, and I don't like that. He's alright, but I miss him
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Old 01-13-2006, 06:06 PM   #21
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That was beautiful, and funny
Yeah, I should concentrate on the positive part. Though I doubt I'll like Bush, at least I won't be one of those that is only looking where does he mess up and criticize him for it. To be fair, I think he was better than Clinton (Clinton was the one that was bombarding the middle east even though there was no war, right?)
Oh, just so you know, I'm not a president hater
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Old 02-12-2006, 03:26 PM   #22
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who are you and why do you continue to drop these brow-creasing non sequiturs?
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Old 02-12-2006, 04:34 PM   #23
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I like the cake, vodka and Big Mac idea better.
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Old 02-12-2006, 09:52 PM   #24
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vodka is disgusting, be a man and drink whiskey. heheh.
Both are delicious!
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:17 AM   #25
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I like the cake, vodka and Big Mac idea better.
good to see you again, amigo.
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