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Old 01-01-2007, 12:10 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by om3gag0th666
I just wish they would all grow up and realize that style of dress, style of mind, and the 'sub-culture' is really what is hindering their creativity.
I don't see a set "style of mind" that defines "Gothic".
I can see how you can think it limits self-image, but I cannot see how being Goth limits the number of mindsets one can have inside the subculture.
Can you give me an example of something I've been limited by my identification with the gothic subculture aside of my wardrobe?
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People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 01-01-2007, 12:13 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by om3gag0th666
I am kind of tired of trying to explain why being a goth is immature.
Running around declaring, "Oh, look at me, I'm so goth!" is immature. But simply being Goth is not.

Lucky for you, not knowing what the fuck you're talking about it not a crime.
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Old 01-01-2007, 01:28 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumor
Running around declaring, "Oh, look at me, I'm so goth!" is immature. But simply being Goth is not.

Lucky for you, not knowing what the fuck you're talking about it not a crime.
Do you know what people think when you say, "Well, I'm a goth."

I mean what the fuck? Like it even matters? Like surrendering your fucking individuality wasn't already done so hastily enough, then you have to dress like one, behave like one, and think like one.

You're a fucking tool, Tumor. You're a fucking tool.
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Old 01-01-2007, 01:30 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
I don't see a set "style of mind" that defines "Gothic".
I can see how you can think it limits self-image, but I cannot see how being Goth limits the number of mindsets one can have inside the subculture.
Can you give me an example of something I've been limited by my identification with the gothic subculture aside of my wardrobe?
Can you enjoy pop-music? Can you like Britney Spears? Can you think that being a Mormon is fine? The list goes on and on...you limit yourself because you think it's stupid.

Can you learn to appreciate certain types of writing and poetry that isn't "gothic" or "dark"? Probably not.
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Old 01-01-2007, 02:06 AM   #55
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Let's see. I have hated pop-music since I was a kid. Only until relatively recently have I started listening to music of this century. As a kid, I was a classical music geek, or whatever one would wish to call me.
I rather prefer Mormonism than most other Christian branches. The religion sounds more mystical; and if there was a religion I would choose, it would be one where I can eventually become a god. Mormonism fits perfectly in that description.
I hate most types of "gothic" writing. I love Edgar Allan Poe, I like H.P. Lovecraft, I essentially enjoyed Dracula even if the reading itself was a bore. But then I hate Anne Rice's style, I believe general literature set in a "gothic" style is pretentious and unreal. I prefer Storm Constantine's version of gothic writing than the orthodox gothic writing.
My book collection contains more science fiction than anything.
You would enjoy my favorite author, Dan Simmons. He has an obsession for Keats, Chaucer, Proust, and Shakespeare, which is completely evident in his style of writing. Yet he maintains his idiosyncratic style by being offensive, always in an either elegant or humorous way.
Aside from science fiction, I like to collect and read the all time classics, books by Robert Anton Wilson (who can only fit in the category of "political and existensial satire") and a myriad of poems, mostly by Latin American authors.
I don't think that would be the bookshelf of a stereotypical goth.

Really I don't see how goth has limited myself in these aspects.
I suppose, as SKot would say, my Goth is not your Goth.
I didn't call myself a goth until I came to this site. I could speak of more profound topics in here that in real life only render me a blank stare on behalf of the listener.
I decided to identify myself as a Goth. I you knew me well, you would know that I'm not willingly limited by anything.
I had decided to romanticize the term Goth to fit my standards, and if it didn't fit my standards, I would mold it until it does.
Goth doesn't define me. I define Goth.
Even if that sounds overly arbitrary and optimistic, that's me. Changing people is easy. I have had practice in that field.
To me, changing the view of a subculture to the eyes of society doesn't seem so hard. It's definitely easier than changing society, which is my goal.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 01-01-2007, 02:16 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by om3gag0th666
Do you know what people think when you say, "Well, I'm a goth."

I mean what the fuck? Like it even matters? Like surrendering your fucking individuality wasn't already done so hastily enough, then you have to dress like one, behave like one, and think like one.

You're a fucking tool, Tumor. You're a fucking tool.
Do I know what people think when I say, "I'm goth..."?

No, I don't. I've never said "I'm goth." So, if people have heard me say that, well, let me know who they are... I'd like to buy drugs off them.

If you're going to talk about tools, look in the mirror before you start thinking. Life will make a little more sense, then. Not much, but just enough...
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Old 01-01-2007, 02:32 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumor
Do I know what people think when I say, "I'm goth..."?

No, I don't. I've never said "I'm goth." So, if people have heard me say that, well, let me know who they are... I'd like to buy drugs off them.

If you're going to talk about tools, look in the mirror before you start thinking. Life will make a little more sense, then. Not much, but just enough...
You identify yourself as 'goth.' Because you are too stupid to identify yourself as a human being. I pity you, I'd snap your wrists back so you can't type anymore (with gusto). Nothing you believe or feel has ever been of a consequential measure, you're an irrevocable mess of indomitable callowness.
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Old 01-01-2007, 02:33 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
Let's see. I have hated pop-music since I was a kid. Only until relatively recently have I started listening to music of this century. As a kid, I was a classical music geek, or whatever one would wish to call me.
I rather prefer Mormonism than most other Christian branches. The religion sounds more mystical; and if there was a religion I would choose, it would be one where I can eventually become a god. Mormonism fits perfectly in that description.
I hate most types of "gothic" writing. I love Edgar Allan Poe, I like H.P. Lovecraft, I essentially enjoyed Dracula even if the reading itself was a bore. But then I hate Anne Rice's style, I believe general literature set in a "gothic" style is pretentious and unreal. I prefer Storm Constantine's version of gothic writing than the orthodox gothic writing.
My book collection contains more science fiction than anything.
You would enjoy my favorite author, Dan Simmons. He has an obsession for Keats, Chaucer, Proust, and Shakespeare, which is completely evident in his style of writing. Yet he maintains his idiosyncratic style by being offensive, always in an either elegant or humorous way.
Aside from science fiction, I like to collect and read the all time classics, books by Robert Anton Wilson (who can only fit in the category of "political and existensial satire") and a myriad of poems, mostly by Latin American authors.
I don't think that would be the bookshelf of a stereotypical goth.

Really I don't see how goth has limited myself in these aspects.
I suppose, as SKot would say, my Goth is not your Goth.
I didn't call myself a goth until I came to this site. I could speak of more profound topics in here that in real life only render me a blank stare on behalf of the listener.
I decided to identify myself as a Goth. I you knew me well, you would know that I'm not willingly limited by anything.
I had decided to romanticize the term Goth to fit my standards, and if it didn't fit my standards, I would mold it until it does.
Goth doesn't define me. I define Goth.
Even if that sounds overly arbitrary and optimistic, that's me. Changing people is easy. I have had practice in that field.
To me, changing the view of a subculture to the eyes of society doesn't seem so hard. It's definitely easier than changing society, which is my goal.

Goth defines you, all of the things you listed is the white-wash goth. I can pick a million of you out of a field like a sprout. You haven't even bloomed yet into yourself. We'll see what happens when you realize the past has become the past...for a reason.

You are seeking to become an individual, on conformed means. It's like writing in meter without knowing how yet. You are confined greatly by this identity. I know you will break free from it someday. I think any sensible human being does, unless they haven't matured past high-school.
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Old 01-01-2007, 02:46 AM   #59
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I have seen that you are very centralized in individuality. I would understand why. Individuality is what is most valuable in American society.
But why do you think you have the right answer?
Personally, I believe in Determinism.
I believe there is no such thing as individuality. You are nothing except a reflection and reaction of what society has taught you and how society has treated you. (not you specifically, but everyone)
One cannot be an individual because his decisions have been limited to one sole option: the option he has deemed best according to his experience in the world.
Decision is only an illusion. Personality is a mirror. Individuality is a mirage.

My theory of individuality is just as accurate a prediction as yours. None has any bases to prove itself as true.
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I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 01-01-2007, 03:04 AM   #60
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Determinism has nothing to do with what you just said. Determinism is the philosophy that all things are pre-determined. Not that there are no individuals.

Logically all things are done already. It just requires a greater mind to see all the choices made on earth played out.

Individuals still exist, but people are not free from influence of course. I still find that people are limiting their individuality by shaping themselves around a "sub-culture."
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Old 01-01-2007, 06:00 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
I have seen that you are very centralized in individuality. I would understand why. Individuality is what is most valuable in American society.
But why do you think you have the right answer?
Personally, I believe in Determinism.
I believe there is no such thing as individuality. You are nothing except a reflection and reaction of what society has taught you and how society has treated you. (not you specifically, but everyone)
One cannot be an individual because his decisions have been limited to one sole option: the option he has deemed best according to his experience in the world.
Decision is only an illusion. Personality is a mirror. Individuality is a mirage.

My theory of individuality is just as accurate a prediction as yours. None has any bases to prove itself as true.
Wow. You have amazed me again Jillian. You have a very high altitude and (in my opinion) accurate perspective. I have no doubt that you will attain your goal (to be able to change part of society) as you are very persuasive.
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Old 01-01-2007, 07:50 AM   #62
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It's good to see how one person can so perfectly highjack a tread. Now, If there is nothing more to say to Hazie, shall we let this come to an end instead of going on and on with Omega? There's no point in this.
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Old 01-01-2007, 09:06 AM   #63
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I thought it was an interesting conversation myself, but thats just me. Also, why attack people if you do not agree with them? Is'nt it easier to move on to the next thread on the forum?
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Old 01-01-2007, 10:27 AM   #64
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It's easier to use the ignore function and hum to yourself "la la la, I can't hear you, la la la". Got tired of rolling my eyes, so I hang out in the Lit area instead. Gets lonely there.
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Old 01-01-2007, 11:05 AM   #65
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Yeah, I have'nt even been there at all. Guess it takes a literary type to be there. Besides, its more fun reading all these posts. I admire the tenacity these people exhibit. haha
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Old 01-01-2007, 11:56 AM   #66
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Wow. You have amazed me again Jillian. You have a very high altitude and (in my opinion) accurate perspective. I have no doubt that you will attain your goal (to be able to change part of society) as you are very persuasive.
Hahaha, altitude. Did you mean aptitude dumb shit? Take his balls out of your mouth for a second and realize that he has merely repeated an idea that has been said once before.
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Old 01-01-2007, 12:18 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MollyMac
It's easier to use the ignore function and hum to yourself "la la la, I can't hear you, la la la". Got tired of rolling my eyes, so I hang out in the Lit area instead. Gets lonely there.
Yes it is easier to use the ignore function. I did after reading several of people put him on their ignore list. To be honest I completely forgot about that function until recently. Now I know how useful it is.
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Old 01-01-2007, 12:42 PM   #68
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Yes it is easier to use the ignore function. I did after reading several of people put him on their ignore list. To be honest I completely forgot about that function until recently. Now I know how useful it is.
So you ignore the only person who actually knows anything about literature (in comparison to these idiots who will only read gothic literature)?
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Old 01-01-2007, 03:23 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by om3gag0th666
Determinism is the philosophy that all things are pre-determined. Not that there are no individuals.
And the lack of Individuality is an outcome of determinism being right, as Free Will is nothing but an illusion.
In any case, let's go back from my aside comment of determinism.
I still find it funny that you said all the things I mentioned (about music, Mormonism, and literary taste) are "white-wash goth" as I have been reading and listening to music before I knew what Goth is.
If I had known Dan Simmons at age thirteen, I started collecting the classics since age eleven (my first book being Jules Verne's 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea; my second book being a translation of Poe's poems); if classical music was the only type of music I liked since I have memory until recently; and yet I only knew about Goth around the time I joined the forums two years ago, can Goth really have "defined" my tastes prior to 2005?
How can I be defined by it if I didn't know anything about it?
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I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
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Quote:
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People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 01-01-2007, 07:02 PM   #70
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Quote:
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And the lack of Individuality is an outcome of determinism being right, as Free Will is nothing but an illusion.
In any case, let's go back from my aside comment of determinism.
I still find it funny that you said all the things I mentioned (about music, Mormonism, and literary taste) are "white-wash goth" as I have been reading and listening to music before I knew what Goth is.
If I had known Dan Simmons at age thirteen, I started collecting the classics since age eleven (my first book being Jules Verne's 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea; my second book being a translation of Poe's poems); if classical music was the only type of music I liked since I have memory until recently; and yet I only knew about Goth around the time I joined the forums two years ago, can Goth really have "defined" my tastes prior to 2005?
How can I be defined by it if I didn't know anything about it?
Bad logic, can you be a painter if you don't know that what you are doing is infact painting? You were a slave to being a 'goth' a long time ago. People didn't realize that back during Newton's intellectual reign that he was a mathematician, they called him a philosopher. Now does that make him any less of a mathematician just because he was unaware of what he was doing?

Freud thought he was a scientist, but turns out he was a philosopher, not a scientist. Does that make him not a scientist?

You were damned to the 'goth sub-culture' long before you 'knew' about it.

Also your reasoning of determinism in relation to free-will is intrinsically flawed. If it is one man's 'destiny' to ascertain the intrinsic qualities of individuality are they not an individual? It's like saying that a person is truly not a ruler because they were destined for it, or that a person is not a painter because it was going to happen already.

Can't you see that your logic is incorrect? Individuality exists, but perhaps only a few will experience it, those who really want to. Those who have felt the need, or were destined to feel the need to break away from the norms. These are individuals none the less, whethere pre-destined, or decided on the spot.
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Old 01-01-2007, 07:35 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by om3gag0th666
You were a slave to being a 'goth' a long time ago.
Then you are saying that my personality already fit the label of goth, wether I chose to name myself as one or not. This is precisely the main argument of most in here, including myself.
What you are saying is that my personality was already on the path to what would eventually deem me as Gothic. This has only so much logic as if I said you were, too, a slave to what you are now. I'm not saying that this assertion is wrong, but it is pointless to signal something so obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by om3gag0th666
Also your reasoning of determinism in relation to free-will is intrinsically flawed. If it is one man's 'destiny' to ascertain the intrinsic qualities of individuality are they not an individual?
Now we would go to an issue of semantics. There can be individuals in my deterministic view of reality, but they would be individuals for the single fact that they are. The state of individuality would be justified in itself as part of a human. Yet, this definition of individuality is not enough for you. What is Individuality to you? If Individuality was formed from the ability of purely free will, then such an abstract is rendered impossible if I am correct in the impossibility of Free Will.
The real question in here is:how do you define Individuality?
I need to know what am I working with in here.
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Quote:
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People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 01-01-2007, 07:46 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
Then you are saying that my personality already fit the label of goth, wether I chose to name myself as one or not. This is precisely the main argument of most in here, including myself.
What you are saying is that my personality was already on the path to what would eventually deem me as Gothic. This has only so much logic as if I said you were, too, a slave to what you are now. I'm not saying that this assertion is wrong, but it is pointless to signal something so obvious.

Now we would go to an issue of semantics. There can be individuals in my deterministic view of reality, but they would be individuals for the single fact that they are. The state of individuality would be justified in itself as part of a human. Yet, this definition of individuality is not enough for you. What is Individuality to you? If Individuality was formed from the ability of purely free will, then such an abstract is rendered impossible if I am correct in the impossibility of Free Will.
The real question in here is:how do you define Individuality?
I need to know what am I working with in here.
Individuality in the 'formal' sense is anyone, in the colloquial sense it is someone or something that stands out to a great degree. Everyone may think differently, but who is the person who can draw the most attention, or is the most radical, the greatest thinker, or dreamer?

That is the individual. Free-will is as impossible as determinism. They are both stupid, they are both impossible to prove, or disprove. It's better to just let life be.

I'd rather be a slave to the root of individuality, than a slave to the masses. No matter what way you slice it, goths are a mass. There are few people who seek to become an individual. They'd rather bob their head to their goth tunes and slit their wrists than give a shit about where they are going.
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Old 01-01-2007, 08:25 PM   #73
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Oh, I don't have to slice anything, but please keep away from stereotypes to decry us.
I like your explanation of individual, but with it, I find that criticizing someone for lack of individuality is laughable.
Only so many nails can stand out. If all the nails begin to stand out more, a new level would be formed in which all again look the same.
And then, this definition of Individuality poses the question "how much of an individual am I?" which is to say "how much do I stand out?"
I know I am easily identifiable in this site. I know no one could confuse my name in my school. I know that many people I am introduced have said "oh, I have heard about you". And I know I made an impression when I visited NMSU.
I believe I'm comfortable with my extent of "individuality" considering I'm not out of high school yet.
One could argue that the range of individuality is small as it only encompasses half a city at the most, but I am a patient person.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 01-01-2007, 08:35 PM   #74
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Miss_Hazie_Lane, I am not very good with words, but for you I will try.
One of my very favourite quotes is one a found on a website containing quotes from a newsgroup named 'alt.gothic'. In fact, it's from that quote site that I managed to stumble across g.net here. Anyway, the quote:

I grew up the day I realized I wasn't a nothing

After I read that, it just stuck in my head, repeating its self over a over again. I grew up the day I realized I wasn't a nothing. And then one day, I suddenly realised how true it is. I am not a nothing. No one is a nothing. We all know what nothing is: it is nothing. And I am something. You are something. A living, breathing, thinking, doing, beautiful and talented something. And you will always be a something, for as long as you live.

I grew up the day I realized I wasn't a nothing

Edit: Oh, it's not really relevant, but I just thought I'd put that out there.
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Old 01-01-2007, 09:27 PM   #75
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Perhaps it should be the other way around. I grew up the day I realized I was a nothing.

Humility is more beautiful than believing you matter. We can appreciate more.
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