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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 10-14-2004, 04:10 PM   #1
Empty_Purple_Stars
 
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World Politics and Ethics!

Mael had a really great thread idea.

So here it is.

Please feel free to share your thoughts on politics and policy around the world, as well as any issues on international ethics you think are relevant.



I would like to start by saying the FIRST offical free election count is underway in Afghanistan with about 75% of the population participating in the vote. No, I am sure it is not without it's problems and kinks but I think it is truly wonderful that a society broken by opressive religious rule for so long is finally allowed to have a voice of it's own.

Oh and the Taliban can lick my Chocolate Starfish!!

:roll:
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Old 10-14-2004, 04:27 PM   #2
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:twisted: I love it!

Now, where should I hang my "There's no place like home" sign?

*

I want to bring something up that my room mate and I were discussing earlier today.

Convicted felons aren't allowed to vote, and that's just fine by me.

If you're going to disrespect the nation to the point where you would commit a felony against the United States and its citizens, I don't think you should have a say in deciding the future of said nation. Showing your hatred for a country through criminal acts just screams "I don't care about this country; past, present or future."

And, that was my side.
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Old 10-14-2004, 05:05 PM   #3
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Some criminal acts, however, are far from being against your Country and fellow Countrymen... For example, drug use. Dealing drugs=bad, using drugs=bad, using drugs hurts yourself, selling drugs hurts your fellow countrymen...

On the topic of drug use, I've quite ALL forms of drugs use (ie cigarettes, marijuana, shrooms, alcohol, etc.) so my argument isn't made biasedly to support my own personal position.

Then there are other crimes that aren't really against the country itself... I'd say that it's rather relative, but I think that people with sentences less than a year, for example, should be allowed to vote... But then again, that's just my opinion.
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Old 10-14-2004, 05:21 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeapotScar
:twisted: I love it!

Now, where should I hang my "There's no place like home" sign?

*

I want to bring something up that my room mate and I were discussing earlier today.

Convicted felons aren't allowed to vote, and that's just fine by me.

If you're going to disrespect the nation to the point where you would commit a felony against the United States and its citizens, I don't think you should have a say in deciding the future of said nation. Showing your hatred for a country through criminal acts just screams "I don't care about this country; past, present or future."

And, that was my side.

~Chuckle~


Ok.....


~Breathe~



The question lies then in what do you know of felony crimes?... Are you aware that it is a felony to carry a knife over six inches, on your hip, into a coffee shop that sells beer...

So... If this is what you believe...

I should not be allowed to vote.


so......................


Should I be allowed to vote?




I can name several instances where perhaps the justice system might have a slightly skewed version of ideas and events.

A simple mistake on a support voucher from the state for a mother in financial distress attempting to support her two children...

A man riding in a friends car to school who has no knowledge of the 5 pounds of marajuana in the trunk...


Do any of these have a lack of respect for their country?




I am fortunate indeed that my state appointed legal representative was decent enough to plea bargain my case down to a class C misdemeanor... Or I would not only lack the ability to vote... I would also not have had the opportunity to come and defend the rights I hold so dear as I would not have been able to join the military...

I would hesitate to place my faith so completely in a justice system so obviously flawed (though it is, in my opinion, the best to be found throughout the world... how sad)... but that is just me...

and I am just the Gypsy... one man... Not a nation...

Always and Forever,
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Old 10-14-2004, 05:34 PM   #5
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I think the mayor of Tokyo`s a racist asshole who should be kicked out of office for those remarks he made concerning foreigners..... hell, that guy scares me. He seriously believes the japanese are a superior race and that all foreigners should be deported..... What kind of fascist bullshit is this??
Japan seriously needs to make an effort to educate people about racism and the human race..... people like this empowered bigot make my blood boil!!!
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Old 10-14-2004, 08:07 PM   #6
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Re: World Politics and Ethics!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empty_Purple_Stars
I would like to start by saying the FIRST offical free election count is underway in Afghanistan with about 75% of the population participating in the vote. No, I am sure it is not without it's problems and kinks but I think it is truly wonderful that a society broken by opressive religious rule for so long is finally allowed to have a voice of it's own.
Fucking A! I recently heard from a woman at a motivational meeting from the middle east (I'm not certain of her country of orgin exactly), but she was really hitting on the fact that most people here take the right to vote for granted, especially women in the US. I was just in awe of how powerful her words were and how much the basic right to vote meant to her - because it was a major sign of equality that just didn't exist for her before.

I can imagine many women in Afghanistan feel the same exact way right now.

With the Democratic government in Afghanistan having basically solidified, it's a major blow to the insurgents who have tried to prevent this from happening.
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Old 10-14-2004, 08:14 PM   #7
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Re: World Politics and Ethics!

Quote:
Originally Posted by .BatteryPoison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Empty_Purple_Stars
I would like to start by saying the FIRST offical free election count is underway in Afghanistan with about 75% of the population participating in the vote. No, I am sure it is not without it's problems and kinks but I think it is truly wonderful that a society broken by opressive religious rule for so long is finally allowed to have a voice of it's own.
Fucking A! I recently heard from a woman at a motivational meeting from the middle east (I'm not certain of her country of orgin exactly), but she was really hitting on the fact that most people here take the right to vote for granted, especially women in the US. I was just in awe of how powerful her words were and how much the basic right to vote meant to her - because it was a major sign of equality that just didn't exist for her before.

I can imagine many women in Afghanistan feel the same exact way right now.

With the Democratic government in Afghanistan having basically solidified, it's a major blow to the insurgents who have tried to prevent this from happening.
The first person to vote was a 19 year old woman.

I hope they figure out all of the flaws in that election, soon. I know the potential for an unfair election were high... people were obtaining multiple voting cards, and the only way they had to keep people from voting multiple times was ink on the fingers after they voted. The ink washed off in minutes, apparently. :?

But I'm glad they got to vote, for once.... for some- twice or three times... :?
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Old 10-14-2004, 08:20 PM   #8
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On the convicted felons/voting thing...

Convicted felons, after they're out of prison for a certain period of time, can apply to get their voting rights back, and a lot of them do.

At least in some states.

That's all.
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Old 10-14-2004, 10:25 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TStone
decided mueling drugs across the boarder was a good way to make a little cheese, gets caught and pays the dues society has deemed appropriate for such heinous behavior
They chose poorly.

Law are by the people, for the people.

If one cannot afford lifes basics needs by earnest employment, or apply to the goverment for limited aid, then there is something wrong with that person. If disabled there is disability, this applies to mentally disabled, if elderly there are programs in place for them.

And given that the two examples made in this post were exceptions to the rule and not the rule, and that these are not usually lifetime bans, I agree with it.

And Teapot.
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Old 10-15-2004, 01:17 AM   #10
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I'd like to raise another issue here, that has been a subject of conversation with my friends: third world debt.

I believe that the richer countries should help third world countries not by interfering with their politics but by annulling (for lack of a better world – sorry) their debts to them, or at least create more favourable conditions for paying them off.
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Old 10-15-2004, 04:25 AM   #11
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Al-FYI, disability bennies aren't all that much. Mental disability is even less so (especially after Reagan's slash-and-burn method of dealing with that "leak" in our budget).

As far as being unable to find work, I look at it this way-most jobs won't hire you if you don't have a place of residence, and it's hard to keep up a place of residence without money from a job. So we end up with a Rube circle.

Something to think about.
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Old 10-15-2004, 10:55 AM   #12
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I'm going to try and address the issue of United Nations and military capacity.

Right now, the US has (in my opinion) way to much sway in the UN.
You can say that it's somewhat understandable. They fund it. They provide the bulk of military hardware and manpower in their actions.

But I also put forward the notion that it's not in the US's interest that the situation changes.

Let's see, what makes the US a global power?
A supremacy in technology funding and research, which are funded by a powerful economy that in turn, is also able to fund an enormous military capacity.

Europe has long wanted to get out from under the US's umbrela of protection without giving the impression of being rude and unappreciative of past actions.
It's a battle that is fought for us (europeans) on the home front and abroad. On the home front, we can't seem to agree on anything.
Europe is far from having a concerted unissonous voice in foreign policy and defense.
The UK doesn't help with it's constant changing of sides concerning transatlantic issues (they're european when it suits them and side with the US when it suits them better).
The french are always competing with Germany for the dominant position on european issues. The little countries (like mine) end up having little or no say in it. Etc etc etc

Europe also has the ambition to compete on an economic level with the US. That would enable us to both compete on economic issues that at present state are dominated by a speculative market which uses the US dollar as the main currency, and enable us to fund our own defense.

I put forward the notion that these ambitions are not in the interest of the US for this: our military vulnerability makes us hostage to US policies. You can't veemently disagree with someone you count on to defend yourself.
And there are issues we veemently disagree with.

So we (europeans) feel humiliated when we find ourselves siding or looking the other way on issues that the US wouldn't have it's way so easily if we were not in such an inferior bargaining position. The security council's decision that enabled the Iraq invasion was made possible by France looking the other way.

If the US felt they needed to reach to some kind of a consensus on some issues, they wouldn't push their agenda so agressively.
I don't confuse this with other countries having their say in what is the US's own national defense.

This is where it becomes thorny. You can argue that the war on terrorism is a US domestic defense issue.

But I feel that reaching an agreement or compromise on foreign actions will make the US not stand out so much in a manner that makes them sometimes look like a bully, but it would also ease the pressure put on it's military abroad (with the rest of us providing a significant percentage of ground troops) that will also enable the US to better secure it's own territory (you can never secure your borders and patrol your territory with a 100% efficiency, but I feel that on both levels your not as secure as your leaders would like you to believe).

This should provide enough ammo for debate, I believe.
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Old 10-15-2004, 11:33 AM   #13
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I cannot argue that, 'cause I agree.

BUT

We can't allow Germany to arm itself again. Fool us once, shame on you, fool us twice...
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Old 10-15-2004, 12:19 PM   #14
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You're quite a few years late for that.

Germany was allowed to do military research and form it's own armed forces again, which it has.
Their bomb defusing experts, land-mine engineers and medical staff are present in Iraq. They didn't deploy any fighting or police forces, that's all.

Your army, when in the first three weeks of war, came across quite a few deserted places with iraqui guns and ammo. The 101st inutilized weapons and blew up ammo, but kept and used the iraqui weapon lubricants (made in Deutschland), due to superior quality in desert conditions (dust, sand and heat) when compared to U.S. issue. I saw this on one of those embedded things. A soldier said it.

Within a couple of months on their ban on military technology research being lifted, they announced a new type of bullet, in which the shell is consumed when fired, which increases bullet speed and faster time that the next bullet can enter the chamber (as the exiting of the previous shell isn't required).

Germany isn't a military threat. It's just another arms manufacturer and dealer, much like the U.S., U.K., France, Portugal, Sweden,etc, etc, etc. We all do it. I'm not disgusted by one, but all.

There should at least be a worldwide ban on landmines, so that innocents don't blow up decades after conflicts are over.

I mean, my country has it's own Republican Guard in Iraq doing police work (whatever that means when you're in a tank), and in Bosnia we have police officers doing police work, as well as rangers and marines in Kosovo (these under UN banner), so you can't really be afraid of Germany when much smaller countries like mine own deploy troops where they don't (it's still a tricky subject to send a country to do peacekeeping in a place it invaded. But mostly for diplomacy towards a nations feelings, rather than the real threat of another conquest.

Unfortunately, invasion and occupation also signify conquest of sorts. If not of territory or people, but of finantial resources. You see where I'm going with this, don't you?

Late edit: I just spent quite some time typing this and I'm beginning to suspect you were being ironic.... (at least I'm using a friend's broadband right now)
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Old 10-15-2004, 12:29 PM   #15
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You guys really don't have a clue about the rest of the world do ya?

Remember what you though about the Russians when you were a kid? How they were fed skewed media and had all these false beliefs about America? Well now its America who has skewed media and have no diea what the rest of the world is doing or even a clue what is going on.

First, Afghanistan has been knocked back 2 decades. Right now, only in the capital city of Kabul is anyone listening to the government. The rest of the nation is back in to control of the various warlords. Opium production, illegal under the Taliban, has increased over 800% in the last year. Right now its the leading crop in the country and the profits fund warlords and taliban factions that roam the countryside at will.

Don't believe me? Well, I would say come over here and I'll get us a ride out there so ya can see it, but you can broswe the web and read about it - even though mainstream US media doesn't talk about it.

It's more lawless now than ever.

And when it comes to felonies in the states, well, its just another racist attempt by the us government to keep poor minorities in check.

Read your own stastics - browse the web. Whites that comit the same drug related acts get away with no felony charges while black men have a 1 in 3 chance of being in prison before they are 21.

The system does this on purpose. Crack cocaine is a product made from powder cocaine. It conatains about 1/3 cocaine as opposed to pure powder cocaine.

Crack cocaine though, has Federal requirements on imprisonment, meaning the judge has to give you a certain amount of time and has to chrage you as a felon, while possession of pure powder cocaine, even if its 5-10 times as much of the stuff, has no guidlines meaning judges can charge you with a midomenor and let you off with a warning and no jail time.

80% of the people arrested for crack possession are black
75% of the people arrested for powder cocaine are white

Does this make sense? I mean, if you have 3 grams of powder you can make 9 grams of crack, but as long as you dont mix it down, you can walk away if you get a good lawyer, while a person who possesses say 1/10 of a gram of crack will do at least 6 months on their first offense (if they were to distill the cocaine from the crack it would be less than 1/30th of a gram of coke).

If you look at the national statistics in the states of black vs whites in prisons and the coresponding crimes you will see some blatently racist trends. Once again, don't take my word for it - browse the web.

Saying felons don't deserve to vote is tandamount to racism.

If you have never lived in the hood, you shouldn't try to dictate how people who are forced to live there survive. I say leave your cushy little parents house and find the worse neighborhood in the largest metropolitan area your closed to and see how people live. You think those people enjoy it? Think they want to be there?

Anyway, I digress. Bottom line is ya need to live in these places and experience it first hand before you start passing judgement.

'Let them eat cake' is never a solution, but means for a revolution.

*and you can quote me on that

Slán
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Old 10-15-2004, 12:37 PM   #16
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I'm not disgusted by one, but all.
I second that. It's too bad that we live in a world where it is FAR too idealistic to stop cycles like this. It's saddening.
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Old 10-15-2004, 01:04 PM   #17
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browse the web
I did, found a sheep humping a pig.

What was the point?
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Old 10-15-2004, 01:28 PM   #18
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Al, at least counter argue if you're going to do that.

Giving people a right to chose is good. Carpet bombing is bad (Afghanistan).

Here you go, one for each of you, now fight properly.
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Old 10-15-2004, 02:13 PM   #19
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I did. my point being the web is not always going to give you the God's honest truth.
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Old 10-15-2004, 02:32 PM   #20
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There was more to his arguments than statistics regarding jail.

I for one, believe that if society choses to imprison it's criminals as punishment and later sets them free, then their debt is paid.
If the debt is paid, your full rights as a citizen must be restored.
Even without considering reintegration of the individual in society.

And you can find reliable information sources online.
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Old 10-15-2004, 03:09 PM   #21
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I did. my point being the web is not always going to give you the God's honest truth.
There are also a lot of studies that provide statistics...
of course the internet is not always reliable
of course books are not always reliable
and of course what whitnesses are telling us is not always true
and even what you see with your own eyes might not be "true".
But you can't ignore it.

read everything you find to a certain topic, visit the area, and you still don't know "the truth" -
...but you are beginning to understand the complexity of the topic....you are beginning to understand the complexity of history, you are beginning to understand the strategy the authors of the several articles, books, documentaries etc are using, you might find a difference between scientific history approach (as many sources as possible, spending a lot of time in analysing the sources) and the approach to history that media uses ( - journalism is based on popularity, time pressure, to address more people in less time)...and you are far closer than before.
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Old 10-15-2004, 05:11 PM   #22
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CptSternn... I believe that you may have a skewed perception on things... ~Chuckle~... Let me try to clarify what I mean by that...


Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn
You guys really don't have a clue about the rest of the world do ya?

Remember what you though about the Russians when you were a kid? How they were fed skewed media and had all these false beliefs about America? Well now its America who has skewed media and have no diea what the rest of the world is doing or even a clue what is going on.
A reminder... Not all on this site are American... And even some of us who are, haven't seen Stateside media (other than some American based websites) in about six years...

Quote:
First, Afghanistan has been knocked back 2 decades. Right now, only in the capital city of Kabul is anyone listening to the government. The rest of the nation is back in to control of the various warlords. Opium production, illegal under the Taliban, has increased over 800% in the last year. Right now its the leading crop in the country and the profits fund warlords and taliban factions that roam the countryside at will.

Don't believe me? Well, I would say come over here and I'll get us a ride out there so ya can see it, but you can broswe the web and read about it - even though mainstream US media doesn't talk about it.

It's more lawless now than ever.
True... and a very sad situation it is... However, control and near destruction of opium production in Afghanistan does not mean that the Taliban should not have paid for the acts that they preformed... Is the resulting warlord chaos better? Not for the Afghan people... a very unfortunate thing that humans feel the need to do this... However, I wouldn't say that the Taliban should have been left in place after it's terrorist choices... Solution? No easy one here... You got one?

Quote:
And when it comes to felonies in the states, well, its just another racist attempt by the us government to keep poor minorities in check.

Read your own stastics - browse the web. Whites that comit the same drug related acts get away with no felony charges while black men have a 1 in 3 chance of being in prison before they are 21.
A very good and close personal friend of mine (who happens to be white) is currently doing twenty years for the selling and distribution of Cocaine...

As for the reasons for the percentages, most of the upper and middle class Americans are white so they do not do obvious crimes (no, they are taught early on how to go about doing 'slick', more acceptable crimes and thus are caught far less often)...

Quote:
The system does this on purpose. Crack cocaine is a product made from powder cocaine. It conatains about 1/3 cocaine as opposed to pure powder cocaine.

Crack cocaine though, has Federal requirements on imprisonment, meaning the judge has to give you a certain amount of time and has to chrage you as a felon, while possession of pure powder cocaine, even if its 5-10 times as much of the stuff, has no guidlines meaning judges can charge you with a midomenor and let you off with a warning and no jail time.
Perhaps they can... but Ed can tell you himself when he gets out... Most of the time they don't in truth...

Quote:
80% of the people arrested for crack possession are black
75% of the people arrested for powder cocaine are white

Does this make sense? I mean, if you have 3 grams of powder you can make 9 grams of crack, but as long as you dont mix it down, you can walk away if you get a good lawyer, while a person who possesses say 1/10 of a gram of crack will do at least 6 months on their first offense (if they were to distill the cocaine from the crack it would be less than 1/30th of a gram of coke).
Yes it does... first of all... crack cocaine is many Many times more addictive than uncooked coke... I have seen the effects of both on several people where I grew up, on the streets, in between the fourth and fifth wards (a.k.a. ghetto's) of Houston Tx. (Empty_Purple_Stars was in the exact same area and consequently could probably share similar information)... Freebased crack cocaine is an exceedingly easy thing to make if you have a decent supplier of cocaine and a few household items, it sells extremely well and quickly (due to it's addictive qualities) and (where I grew up) can be found more easily in predominantly black and mexican neighborhoods where it is made...

Bottom line?

Yes, it makes sense why the sentence would be harsher for Crack
Yes, more black (males in particular) are busted for crack because it is in the "black ghetto" where it is primarily made and to be found, so that too makes sense...

I look up statistics mostly to back-up what I know from personal experience... You should try to open your eyes to these realities before screaming racism... (though I do agree, the system is racist, it's just more subtle than you put forward...)

Quote:
If you look at the national statistics in the states of black vs whites in prisons and the coresponding crimes you will see some blatently racist trends. Once again, don't take my word for it - browse the web.
Now you are hitting close to the truth, but you might have the wrong reasons why...

Quote:
Saying felons don't deserve to vote is tandamount to racism.
I won't even dignify this with a response...

Quote:
If you have never lived in the hood, you shouldn't try to dictate how people who are forced to live there survive. I say leave your cushy little parents house and find the worse neighborhood in the largest metropolitan area your closed to and see how people live. You think those people enjoy it? Think they want to be there?
Even if you have lived in the hood you have no right to dictate how other people think as long as their actions do not impose their thoughts or beliefs upon you...

As for the rest... See above.

Quote:
Anyway, I digress. Bottom line is ya need to live in these places and experience it first hand before you start passing judgement.

'Let them eat cake' is never a solution, but means for a revolution.

*and you can quote me on that

Slán
Even as I have lived in these places, I try not to pass judgement... on anyone... even if they live in a "cushy parents home"...

This much I have learned... It is not only how and where you grew up... it is what you take away from it...

*and you can quote me on that... ~Chuckle~

Always,
~The Gypsy~
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Old 10-15-2004, 06:05 PM   #23
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Wow,

I was going to respond to Stern's post but you've said all I was going to say and more.Ya know,it's not the first time that's happened.

I just wanted to relate that my husband had a friend sent to the Pen. for similar reasons to yours,Gypsy.He was a white boi.Should his rights be taken away?He's served his time.


I have to agree that landmines are an invention used with devestating effects to innocents.It should be illegal to manufacture and/or use them.
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Old 10-15-2004, 09:19 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by CptSternn
You guys really don't have a clue about the rest of the world do ya?
Are you basing this arguement (Afghanistan) off of the sharing of admiration for democratic elections in Afghanistan and equal voting rights being extended to women in that country?

If so, here's a quick metaphor to put this into context:
There's an organization that raises money to send children with terminal illnesses to Disney World here in the U.S. so that they can have a chance to get out of the hospital and be a kid for a day. Does it suck that these children are on meds and are sick while they're at the amusement park? Yeah. Should you cut down the partents for thinking it was magical to see a smile on their child's face when Mikey Mouse came up and hugged him because you thought they were being ignorant to his health condition? I guess that's a matter of personal oppinon, but I, and many, many, many others would say, "No."

Also, here's some 'Shock and Awe' for you; believe it or not, but Bush/America actually has done some good in the World. Has he/it done bad too? Yeah. If you ignore one or the other, you're just as clueless as you claim others to be.
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Old 10-16-2004, 02:49 AM   #25
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Hitler was a nice guy too if ya knew him. He had many good social welfare programmes in place for those in Germany and helped start some in other parts of his empire as well.

Think about now. There are 169 nations in the world. Of those, less than a dozen are democracies. Most are dictatorships. They still have programmes in place to help their people. In fact, most people who live in those nations love their government, even though by US standards things like tourture and lack of womens rights would make them seem quite horrible.

Question is, do we praise nations for the good they do or point out the flaws they have so they can be changed?

Either answer, we all know glossing over imperfections and continuing to browbeat the masses with inacuracies to make them think all is well is not the answer.

Ya can't just go invading countries when you think their way of life is not like yours. You also cannot force your will, ideals, or morals onto any persons who do not live in your own sovern nation.

Whats my point? Well, yes, the US has done good, and the people in the US like their way of life. However, they have no right to impose their will on other nations, and overall a government and its policies needs to be seen as a whole - good with the bad, and judged as such.

Note a few things - first the Taliban was put in place by the US government. In actuallity, they didn't really horbor terrorists. They didn't stop them either - it was kinda like having knackers on your land (those in Europe can identify with this). You can't really ask em to leave and you cant really get rid of them without starting a virtual war, so a live and let live policy emerges.

Saying its a better place because they get to vote and women can work is like saying america would be better if women wore burkas and stayed barefoot and pregnant. Depends on your religion and the point of view you subscribe to. Seeings how the Afghan people are Muslim, they might act like they like the new policies (people in invaded nations in WW2 were estatic about being 'reunited' with GErmany and its policies, as reported by national papers in WW2), but in reality, they could give a rats arse. Their religion is against it, and so are they. Forcing your will on them will not change centuries of religion, no matter how many bobms you drop on em. They will always smile for the camera, especially when you point a gun at their head.

The US needed to vent some anger, and since Al Queda had no official home, they found a nice scapegoat. Funny thing, even though supposedly a Christian nation they still like to bomb the hell out of a third world country every 3 years (check your calendars people - panama, grenada, lebanon, lybia, bosnia, afghanistan, iraq, and the list continues). They always seem to justify it someway that makes them look like a hero, when if you have ever visted any of these places, the americans are hated.

Until you can see the damage the american policies do first hand, you will never be able to grasp the damage the united states does to the rest of the world. Trying to explain world politics to people who have never been outside their own country is like trying to explain colors to a blind man.

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