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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 02-10-2006, 09:20 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lackluster_Heavens
I just wanted to add my two little cents to this conversation. In my personal opinion, there are some crimes that do deserve the death penatly. Serious cases of child molestation/****, other forms of ****, and drug trafficking. With murder, the person's life is simply over, but in these cases, they're life can be completely shattered for a time or even permanently. In my opinion, ****** a 9 year old girl is far worse then killing a 25 year old man or woman, or even killing the same 9 year old girl. Because at that age it Will permenantly scar the child. And please dont try to tell me this never happens, it does quite a bit, in my town there were 4 cases of it in the past ten years, and my town is extermely small. I'm kinda rambling, but I just wanted to say, some crimes do deserve the death penalty.
Rambling or not, I agree with what you said up there ^^.

SOME crimes DO deserve the death penalty.

Gang ****** a Seven Year Old Girl for example.

Incarceration simply is NOT sufficient punishment.

I support the Death Penalty and would like to see it EXPANDED to include crimes against children, not resulting in Death. Some things are WORSE than Death, and these monsters should be removed from our Society before they have a chance to re-offend.

Look at Jessica Lunsford. Her killer was ALREADY a Registered Sex Offender. Denis Couey had already molested other children. He got a slap on the wrist, and a free ticket to **** and kill. Which he promptly cashed in on Poor Jessica.

It never should have happened.

If the US had a ZERO TOLERANCE policy in place for Child Sex Offenders, Jessica would still be with us today.

Instead, she died in a Garbage Bag, clutching her favorite stuffed animal, right across the street from the very home she was snatched from, while safe in her own bed.

Just how many CHANCES do these people get?

I say ONE.

PLEASE spend my Tax Dollars on BIGGER Electric Chairs!

*sigh*
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Old 02-10-2006, 09:25 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfMoon
There are prisoners that I'd be very happy to see just shot. If they can't function in normal society then that's not where they need to be.

I'd rather not have my children on the same streets as former rapists/molesters/killers.

There are places for people like that.

Graves.
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Old 02-10-2006, 10:00 AM   #78
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No, tell me again.




EPS, I agree. Or we could bring back hanging?

Texas is the place, after all......
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Old 02-11-2006, 06:07 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder
Do you think they segregate murderers from other prisoners? Maybe in some penitentiaries, but not in most. They're put in with other violent criminals, until they run out of room.
actually, if prisoners are generally well behaved, general population holds everything from a murderer to a tax evader. if there's a reason to separate them, prisoners are segregated based on gang affiliation, whether or not they are high profile and whether or not they start off with an act of violence after they've been incarcerated. i don't think those are the only three criteria, but the're definitely the most prevalent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by existential disorder
I don't look at the death penalty as either vengeance or a viable deterrent. Its punishment, plain and simple. There is no deterrent from killing somebody if that's really what someone wants to do. A lot of them believe they'll never be caught anyway, so it doesn't matter to them what 'deterrents' are put in place.
the death penalty is a cure. take a murderer and execute him. what do you have? a murderer that will never murder again. it's pretty basic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by existential disorder
And you can thank the bleeding heart liberals for cable tv and other luxuries in prison. At some point they decided prisoners were being treated unfairly and harsh by forcing them into various labors and denying various luxuries. So little by little prison has grown into a place where now a lot of people look at it as an easy way to get everything handed to them. There are people who don't want out of prison because then they'd have to actually earn their living. When they get out or parolled they deliberately do something that will send them right back to prison because they think its easier in there than out here. And in a lot of ways it is.
amen to that. fuckin' shitbags.
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Old 02-12-2006, 11:37 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Empty_Purple_Stars
Err..

Word of Caution..

We've been down that road with Sternn, many many times.

He is an admitted member of the Sinn Fein, and a FORMER resident of the Good ol' UsofA.

He has a real hard-on for Bush, and no love lost for our Government.

Read a bit of his Post History to get a feel for his political views.

I was kind of hoping he'd gotten tired of beating the US to death, because he CAN be quite personable when he isn't bashing our government.

But alas, some things never change.

I like the version of CptSternn BETTER that digs Bruce Campbell and good Electronic Music.

*Pokes Sternn*
Argh. I am no Bush fan, myself. It doesn't bother me that people see things wrong with the American justice system; I do as well. Just don't look down your nose at my country using yours as the model of Utopia when we all know it just isn't.
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Old 02-12-2006, 11:40 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by edible_eye
amen to that. fuckin' shitbags.
I like to think of the death penality to be a serious issue, but I can't help myself but laugh when I read this comment.
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:12 AM   #82
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when you laugh, rose - it's like a refreshing cool, springtime rain beneath a hot, summer sun.

the world was a better place for just a few moments, babe.
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Old 02-13-2006, 06:01 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Xnguela
I think Bush is a really cute old man.


Riiiight...
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Old 02-13-2006, 06:41 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blushing Heliophobe
If your country has it's act together so well then why do you even need Sinn Fein?
Simple answer - we don't.

Slightly more involved answer - Sinn Fein (and the IRA) would have run out of funds long ago if:
a) they didn't operate drug running, protection rackets, bank robberies, etc.
b) USA citizens didn't send money to them so they could continue to kill children for being born in the wrong community.
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Old 02-13-2006, 06:43 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfMoon
Going with your logic, sheridan, why punish anyone, huh?
Logic didn't enter into your sentence at all, care to explain your thinking?

Quote:
If you steal someone's car, they get yours.
What if they didn't have a car. Or to apply it on a different scale - if someone with mouths to feed and no money steals bread, what then?
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Old 02-13-2006, 07:00 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheridan
Simple answer - we don't.

Slightly more involved answer - Sinn Fein (and the IRA) would have run out of funds long ago if:
a) they didn't operate drug running, protection rackets, bank robberies, etc.
b) USA citizens didn't send money to them so they could continue to kill children for being born in the wrong community.
The question was pointed towards Sternn, who as an avid Sinn Fein supporter, was using Ireland as a picture of a perfect Justice system, or at least vastly superior than that of the US'.
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Old 02-14-2006, 03:34 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blushing Heliophobe
But the point I was trying to make is that trying to use your country as a model of stability isn't the best idea, man.

Ireland has one of the rockiest political and civil histories... .
Yeah, but your talking about the Troubles in the North. And all that can be attributed to the invasion and occupation of british forces. Not really a problem with the people as much as it is an outside government forcing its will onto another group of people.
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Old 02-14-2006, 03:44 AM   #88
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And that has what to do with Ireland's stability being so much better than that of the USA?
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Old 02-14-2006, 03:52 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheridan
People also don't apologise for crimes that they don't commit. The international reporting of this story hasn't made it obvious that he did do what he was accused of.

As to the innocence question in general - he was the leader (and founder) of a gang, but since then he's worked against that whole system. How many people's lives has he saved by convincing them not to take the gang path?
Like I said before, Ireland the max you get for murder is 10 years. Most are out in 3. Why? Rehabilitation that works. Prisons here are like college dorms in the states, wit common areas where you can cook and semi private cells. None of that **** and gang stuff here.

But that also goes back to a bigger idea than just reformed prisons - you have to reform the society. In the states, and I'm guessing china and other places too, your life is not decided by the years of good you do, but the 30 seconds, the one mistake, you make.

I mean, in the states, if you say steal a car. First offense, lets say you were desperate and had a poor judgement day going on. Say you hopped into one that was sittng their idling while the owner went in to the shop for some smokes. I know a lad who did that - got 5 years. He was branded a 'felon', 'convict', and 'car thief'.

Didn't matter he was for the most part a good man, a good father, and spent upwards of twenty years on the planet leading what most would consider a good life, an semi-active member of his church, a family man, a man who worked at the same factory job since he was 18. This was in the states.

Nope, in a matter of seconds he went from pillar of the community, to scum of society. Tis a problem that needs to be addressed there before you can change the death penalty.

Is a man the collection of his own acts and actions or is he merely just the epitome of one mistake he made? If you were being judged, say in front of what ever deity you pray to, would you want him to weight the good with the bad, or should they just look at the worst mistake that you made and judge your whole life on that one event?
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Old 02-14-2006, 04:04 AM   #90
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Prison in Ireland sounds like more fun than 6th grade summmer camp.

Do you believe in responsibility for one's actions?

Do you believe in the unrepentant repeat offender?

Or are you just crapping roses and farting tulips in Happy-Happy Sternn land?
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Old 02-16-2006, 09:00 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheridan
Logic didn't enter into your sentence at all, care to explain your thinking?
I was responding sarcastically to this:As to the innocence question in general - he was the leader (and founder) of a gang, but since then he's worked against that whole system. How many people's lives has he saved by convincing them not to take the gang path?

I don't give a shit how many lives they supposedly saved to try and buy their way to freedom. If some gang-banger murdered someone, they do the time and are punished. I think they spend too much time just sitting around in Death Row. It's not logical to keep someone breathing if they've got a date with Death.

And this:Yep - murder can never be justified. Killing can only be justified in self-defence, but killing someone who's behind bars, has no weapons, etc is not self-defence (obviously).

The Death Penalty is punishment, not killing.





Quote:
Originally Posted by sheridan
What if they didn't have a car. Or to apply it on a different scale - if someone with mouths to feed and no money steals bread, what then?
If someone with mouths to feed steals food, I have no problem with that. I'd willingly give them bread from my own table.

If someone steals a car, they should be punished. There is no justification for stealing unless it's survival.
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Old 02-16-2006, 09:18 AM   #92
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Is the justice system supposed to be just about punishment or rehabilitation? Is america founded as one nation under God, and does it not continually fight to keep God in the national anthem?

Does not the same God which america so often align itself teach forgiveness? I mean, didn't God send his own son so die for everyone elses sins? Didn't an eye for an eye go out with the Old Testement? Didn't God say NOT to practice it anymore?

I mean, to say that the justice system is merely about retrobution instead of rehabilition is going against the ideals america was founded on.

Not saying that the justice system doesn't do that, with mandatory sentencing and judges who make their own 'moral crusades' against those they feel are less than other people in society.

What I'm saying is should a legal system not also take into account all aspects of a persons life, and give them an environment to better themselves and reflect on their mistakes, as opposed to locking them away, out of site, out of mind, in efforts to purposely ruin their life so that victims of a crime might feel vengence? Isn't vengence the latin off shoot of the greek word for wrath, one of the seven deadly sins?

Much like the drug issue, penalty vs. treatment arguement. Shouldn't we be doing all we can to better the lives of people around us instead of just locking people away for 20 years as we ourselves find it in our own power to judge their actions, their one mistake, and take it up on ourselves to judge their lives not worth living in society?
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Old 02-16-2006, 09:25 AM   #93
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I hear what you're saying, Sternn, I really do.

But it's not just about the one mistake the perpatrator(?) of the crime did. It's how they affected their victim.What they took away from them, life, sustenance, liberty and all that jazz.......

And what do you mean wrestling's fake?

O_o
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Old 02-16-2006, 09:51 AM   #94
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In case anyone is shocked by what Sternn's saying about sentencing, it's not true. If you commit murder in Ireland, there is a mandatory sentencing you recieve, which is life in prison. And the average years served turns out to be 12, not three.

Stats and information can be referenced from an Irish Government website. Source can be viewed HERE.
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Old 02-16-2006, 11:01 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn
Is the justice system supposed to be just about punishment or rehabilitation?

Shouldn't we be doing all we can to better the lives of people around us instead of just locking people away for 20 years as we ourselves find it in our own power to judge their actions, their one mistake, and take it up on ourselves to judge their lives not worth living in society?
Hey, I have been curious about something, and since you always seem so forthcoming about personal details I figured I would just ask.

Is it true that you just got out of Prison?
And if so, why were you there?

You were gone for a very long time, and that is what I had heard.
But I didn't want to make any assumptions without checking with you.
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Old 02-16-2006, 11:16 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Binkie
In case anyone is shocked by what Sternn's saying about sentencing, it's not true. If you commit murder in Ireland, there is a mandatory sentencing you recieve, which is life in prison. And the average years served turns out to be 12, not three.

Stats and information can be referenced from an Irish Government website. Source can be viewed HERE.
Well, unless you get someone to pay your way out?
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Old 02-16-2006, 08:44 PM   #97
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This is very true. Lol.
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Old 02-18-2006, 10:47 AM   #98
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See, they put that on the website, but having done time in the states and in Ireland, I can tell you tis not true. Lets look at a few factors which yuo can also Google.

First, in the Republic, we get 1/3rd remission on our sentences. Thats means as long as your behaving, you automatically get 1/3rd off your sentence.

Second, murder only counts as life under certain circumstances. Like you kill your wife and kids, or something haneus like that. I know a lad who got 3 years for killing a guy in a bar fight. No life sentence.

Third, under the Good Friday Agreement, all Republican prisoners get 50% remistion off their sentence in the north, and 1/3rd off in the Republic, as long as the crimes are related to Republican activity.

For example, google Gerry McCabe. The members of the pIRA killed this police officer who was working nite shifts as a gard for Securicore (armoured car company). During an IRA heist, he was shot 11 times and died. The three volunteers were caught, sentenced, and now will be released in the coming months. They currently are in PortLoise, and doing quite well.

For gunning down a police officer during an armoured car attack, they got 3, 4, and 7 years, all reduced, so they really only had to pull a few years each.

No life sentences.

And yes, I was picked up for various offenses.

But all that is over now and the charges were dropped. And now, after being released I was elected as a board member of the party here, and am leading the lines at the Color Parties.

Sean South (Google him if you don't know him and have never been to an Irish pub and heard the song) commemoration was last month. Got some great pix of me leading the color party lines for the thousands that showed up. I was honoured to be choosen out of all the men in Ireland to lead the CP for the 49th year.

http://www.sternn.com/stuff/January0...ick-SeanSouth/
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Old 02-18-2006, 11:08 AM   #99
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Forgive me for being dense..

But I am still confused..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empty_Purple_Stars
Hey, I have been curious about something, and since you always seem so forthcoming about personal details I figured I would just ask.

Is it true that you just got out of Prison?
And if so, why were you there?

You were gone for a very long time, and that is what I had heard.
But I didn't want to make any assumptions without checking with you.
Can you answer this?

My heads a bit fuzzy after the last 12 hours, so forgive me for being slow.

And if it's none of my business, feel free to tell me to Sod Off.

Congratulations on your recent honor though..
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Old 02-19-2006, 12:35 PM   #100
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I think you're confusing manslaughter with murder, Sternn. They're two different charges, but only one results in a mandatory sentencing.

However, when I looked into Irish Law, the only remissions that are given are based on good behavior in prison, as you stated, but they only even apply after a quarter of the sentence has been served. So if you're convicted for murder and you're to serve "no less than a 40 year sentence," that means you have to serve 10 years before you're even able to be released after 13 and a half. That break-down can be referenced HERE.

In addition, the Good Friday Agreement, which can be referenced HERE, only provides the circumstances for early release for prisioners already convincted or are scheduled at the time of the Good Friday Agreement, to be released early from prision. Those convincted for murder (that the IRA has to confirm was offically ordered) after it's implimentation have obviously broken the "cease fire" provision and are not eligable for early release. Also to be noted; Jerry McCabe's killers did not benefit from this. None were eligable for early release, as it was not a political murder (as confirmed by Sinn Fien and the IRA), and none recieved it. So if you were to go out right now and knock off a gas station for a few Twislers and killed a clerk, the Good Friday Agreement isn't going to do anything for you.

Similarly, Michael McDowell, the current Irish Minister for Justice, Equality, and Law Reform, reaffirmed what the Irish Government site stated prior. In his speech on mandatory sentencing in 2004, he had this to say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael McDowell
There are a small number of situations however, where statute takes a more mandatory approach to the imposition of sentences. The most notable exception is, of course, in the case of murder where there is a mandatory sentence of life imprisonment. The Criminal Justice Act, 1990 provides that a person convicted of treason or murder shall be sentenced to imprisonment for life. Where a person is convicted of treason or of what formerly would have been capital murder, the Act obliges a court to specify imprisonment for a period of not less than 40 years as the minimum period to be served.

The Law Reform Commission has undertaken a review of the law relating to homicide. Over the past three years, it has published Consultation Papers on "Homicide: The Mental Element of Murder", "Corporate Killing" and "Provocation". Another Consultation Paper on the general defences relating to homicide is expected. Following consideration of the comments on these Consultation Papers, a final Report dealing with all aspects of the law on homicide may be published.

In its Consultation Paper on "The Mental Element of Murder", the Commission said that its initial view was that the distinction between murder and manslaughter should be maintained. It added that many of the difficulties associated with the distinction could be addressed by other means "including the removal of the mandatory life sentence for murder". There has been some expression of support for this view from senior judicial figures.

While I await with great interest the final Report of the Law Reform Commission on this issue, I can see the weight of the argument that the mandatory sentence of life imprisonment for murder is a just and apt punishment - it is part of our law for good reason. Murder is the killing of another person in circumstances where the murderer intended to kill or cause serious injury. It is the gravest crime and must be treated as such. Taking the life of another person must stand in the eyes of the law as an offence for which there is no more serious punishment.
Full speech can be referenced HERE.

Also, those charged in the killing of Gerry McCabe pleaded guilty to manslaughter, not murder. One of the reasons for this was because several witnesses who had previously given statements refused to give evidence at the trial, which was, according to the police, a result of IRA intimidation and threats. This is the reason none were sentenced to life in prison. They were sentenced from 11-14 years in prison. The earliest release for any of the murderers is May of 2007. So "coming months" can better be described as "over a year." As stated before, they're all serving their full sentence, as none of them were eligible for early release.
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