What haircut?!

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

And...


Kontan, I'm surprised at you. The kid didn't say anything wrong and you were a dick to him from the getgo.

I blame it on my capacity to find goth to be pretty lame.

[NightmareInShiningArmour]

Siouxsie has already done it, except hers was more of just teased hair, but it was like an afro!

[babycakes]

Originally Posted by NightmareInShiningArmour

Siouxsie has already done it, except hers was more of just teased hair, but it was like an afro!

pah, i can work it better than siouxsie. my afro owns all.

[NightmareInShiningArmour]

No one beats Siouxsie. -.-

[constanza]

Originally Posted by NightmareInShiningArmour

No one beats Siouxsie. -.-

agreed,siouisie would own your afro babycakes

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Solumina

An add-on to my previous post: this is not saying that someone should teach their child by forcing them into humiliating experiences or by purposefully humiliating them. Instead this is saying that the fear of being humiliated is a very strong motivating factor, especially for children. This means that if someone is aware that there are negative social ramifications (ie they will be humiliated) for an action then that person is extremely unlikely to perform the action, even if it is something that they would enjoy doing.

Mm.
I didn't get that from your first post.

Also...learning something in a college course, especially psych, doesn't make it true. It could make it true that one person believes it, or one group, but it doesn't make it true, so saying you learned it doesn't convince me.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

I blame it on my capacity to find goth to be pretty lame.

I don't care what you find lame, there's no reason to be mean to people when they just want help.

The kid was like 14...are you seriously ok with bullying children...?

[Tam Li Hua]

I was about to say the same thing as Ophelia. :/

The guy is just a kid! How on earth is he supposed to know everything there is to know about the subculture at that age? Geez. Why not gently educate the kid instead of blasting him for being curious? >_<

[babycakes]

Originally Posted by constanza

agreed,siouisie would own your afro babycakes

but does siouxsie really have an afro? with her it's more teased hair. mine is a full blown afro.

[constanza]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

The kid was like 14...are you seriously ok with bullying children...?

you dont seem to be botherd by it

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

I don't care what you find lame, there's no reason to be mean to people when they just want help.

The kid was like 14...are you seriously ok with bullying children...?

This isn't bullying. What you're implying is that I should patronize this kid. Well, Ophelia, I don't play into patronization. It's more insulting that being honest.

The kid WANTS to be goth more than themselves. Tell me why it's better for me to patronize and tell this kid that he's a goth when in actuality, I'm simply NOT reinforcing a bad direction in identity. I've been there, it's embarrassing. If anything, I'm saving this kid a lot of grief.

Think of it as like... not letting your kids believe in Santa.

So no, Ophelia, I wont be "nice" and patronizing because I'm not in the mind to disrespect this kid.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Mm.
I didn't get that from your first post.

Yeah after the fact I kind of realize that it sounded as though I was talking about simply humiliating a child, sometimes I forget to really say exactly what I mean simply because it already makes sense in my mind.

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Also...learning something in a college course, especially psych, doesn't make it true. It could make it true that one person believes it, or one group, but it doesn't make it true, so saying you learned it doesn't convince me.

True but it is something that has a bit more foundation than some random person saying it. I suppose I could said that there was quite an in depth section in the well respected textbook on social pressures and learning in children, but that didn't quite seem necessary.

[thekorupt]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

This isn't bullying. What you're implying is that I should patronize this kid. Well, Ophelia, I don't play into patronization. It's more insulting that being honest.

The kid WANTS to be goth more than themselves. Tell me why it's better for me to patronize and tell this kid that he's a goth when in actuality, I'm simply NOT reinforcing a bad direction in identity. I've been there, it's embarrassing. If anything, I'm saving this kid a lot of grief.

Think of it as like... not letting your kids believe in Santa.

So no, Ophelia, I wont be "nice" and patronizing because I'm not in the mind to disrespect this kid.

100% agree Kontan


No no-one came out of the womb knowing how to be goth. Then again, I don't define myself as Goth. I am me, and I happen to fit in more with goths and metalheads than I do with other groups. Its that simple.

This kid isn't trying to be him and as himself, find where he fits in. He is trying to portray a stereotype. A stereotype, I might add, created by media and against which almost all of us battle. And yes, every-fucking-body here sometimes gets tired of getting weird looks at the grocery store or having adults that should know better judge you on sight. Doesn't matter who you are, when you don't fit in the mainstream, there are times you get tired of being different, even if different is who you are.

Allowing another poser to further that stereotype is unfair to them and everyone else.

Especially the stupid vampire shit. Thats just annoying.

And by the way. I think what most people had a problem with was him NOT learning, and assuming that he himself came out of the womb knowing all that is goth.

[Technowitch]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

This isn't bullying. What you're implying is that I should patronize this kid. Well, Ophelia, I don't play into patronization. It's more insulting that being honest.

The kid WANTS to be goth more than themselves. Tell me why it's better for me to patronize and tell this kid that he's a goth when in actuality, I'm simply NOT reinforcing a bad direction in identity. I've been there, it's embarrassing. If anything, I'm saving this kid a lot of grief.

Think of it as like... not letting your kids believe in Santa.

So no, Ophelia, I wont be "nice" and patronizing because I'm not in the mind to disrespect this kid.

Originally Posted by thekorupt

No no-one came out of the womb knowing how to be goth. Then again, I don't define myself as Goth. I am me, and I happen to fit in more with goths and metalheads than I do with other groups. Its that simple.

This kid isn't trying to be him and as himself, find where he fits in. He is trying to portray a stereotype. A stereotype, I might add, created by media and against which almost all of us battle. And yes, every-fucking-body here sometimes gets tired of getting weird looks at the grocery store or having adults that should know better judge you on sight. Doesn't matter who you are, when you don't fit in the mainstream, there are times you get tired of being different, even if different is who you are.

Allowing another poser to further that stereotype is unfair to them and everyone else.

Especially the stupid vampire shit. Thats just annoying.

And by the way. I think what most people had a problem with was him NOT learning, and assuming that he himself came out of the womb knowing all that is goth.

I think the two of you summed up pretty much everything that I wanted to say. <3

[Wingweaver_The_Vampire]

first thx Ophelia and the others.
2nd i'm being myself... ppl dont just become goth because they liked gothic fashion... there are reasons ppl become goth... like, the way they think and stuff... thats why i became one. I'm being myself, i hate posers too. u dont wanna believe this, don't. i don't care what assholes say. I know myself. and "that stupid vampire shit" is to express my personality. and cz i like vampires.

[honeythorn]

Mostly I've found that the reason goths are goths because they listen a lot of gothic rock. That is basically why they/we/I/you/ ect are called goths. It has very little to do with the way you think, and people only "see" a goth when you dress in the usual gubbins assosciated with it.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Wingweaver_The_Vampire

first thx Ophelia and the others.
2nd i'm being myself... ppl dont just become goth because they liked gothic fashion... there are reasons ppl become goth... like, the way they think and stuff... thats why i became one. I'm being myself, i hate posers too. u dont wanna believe this, don't. i don't care what assholes say. I know myself. and "that stupid vampire shit" is to express my personality. and cz i like vampires.

You're still looking for a label to justify who you are. Look, I'll put it 100% bluntly as I can. You don't listen to goth rock, you are NOT a goth. You just aren't. It's FINE that you're not a goth. It's FINE that you like to act like your a vampire. But when you say you're goth and you've yet to give any real evidence that you are, save for the fact that you like to reinforce stereotypes of what a goth is, you lump every person on this forum in with you and MOST of us are just regular people who have a taste for dark rock and roll or obscure kinds of music.

People are ONLY goth by virtue of what kind of music they listen to. We're all fans of Siousxie and Bauhaus. We love the complicated vocals of Andi Sex Gang. That's what makes a goth a goth. What you're doing is embracing the imposed normality of what is considered dark to best reflect the impression on people that you are a goth. The reason you REFUSE to acknowledge this inarguable fact about goth rock leads us all to believe that you REALLY have no clue as to what you're talking about. This is why we call you a poser. This is why we call you misguided. This is why we're all laughing at you.

Check it out. My mother is as "normal" as the day is long. She's not into vampires or death or sadness or moonlit walks in a misty night. She's a down to earth middle class woman with a boyfriend that goes to the gym and they both TAN to look GOOD. But my mother is a fan of The Cure. THAT'S why she'll always be more goth than someone like you.

Yeah, I listen to goth rock. That's what makes me a goth. Your claims of being so implies that on some arbitrary level, we are the same. So when a spooky kid goes around trying to be goth, it makes ME look bad. It makes OTHERS who enjoy the music and enjoy things such as DIY fashion look bad.

But you'll still refuse to acknowledge what we're trying to tell you.

[Noirette]

He is a kid.
He won't see the way you see. He needs to experience and learn much more before he can do so.
I've been there. Unfitting completely for society, tryung to find myself. An 11 years old child. Then I found the stereotype of goth(the romantic-phylosophic thoughts about love, death, life and religion.) and fell inlove with it.
Later I realized it was just it-a stereotype. But back then I simply couldn't understand it. Give him time to be innocent about things.
He is himself, who loves the stereotypical aesthetics of goth.
I'm sorry if I sound rude, but Wingweaver, arguing with people who know more than you about a subject and it's definition-will only make you look stupid.
I was dissapointed, too, to find out that goth is just music and fashion(maybe literature, but i'm not sure about it.), and nothing more.

[Technowitch]

Originally Posted by Noirette

I was dissapointed, too, to find out that goth is just music and fashion(maybe literature, but i'm not sure about it.), and nothing more.

Yes, literature too. A lot of the Romantic era writers used the same darker themes that would later become popular in gothic rock--love, death, horror, and the supernatural. Like any other fiction from that time period, it tends to be rather...flowery prose, I guess would be a good way to describe it?

I'm sure a few modern writers have comparable styles, but I can't think of any. :<

I've always felt that goth was a subculture based on a type of darker aesthetics, not just in music and fashion but also literature, art, architecture (yes, there is gothic architecture, and it predates the lit of the Romantic era), and for some even interior design. It's just kind of evolved over a couple of centuries, and with the introduction of cyber and steampunk aesthetics it's going to continue to grow.

But that doesn't mean you should go around trying to force yourself into one little niche in an effort to find yourself or prove how hardcore you are. =/

[KontanKarite]

I wouldn't even go so far as to say that it's music AND fashion.

It's honestly just the music if you think about it.

When you accept that it IS just the music and only the music, you start to understand that all that shit that you THINK is attributed to goth, even the fashion, is either something you honestly like on the grounds that it really IS who you are or you just liked the idea of being special in a dark and tortured way.

It's more liberating to know that there's groups of people out there who are into the same kind of music but have no concrete definition of it all except for the music. Hell, I can enjoy my blue jeans and abercrombi tee shirt and LOVE Bauhaus. Get it? It's liberating to do and be exactly what you want. o_0

I'm simply trying to get someone ahead. It's not like I'm trying to be an asshole to a kid, it's just me trying to help them get BEYOND that stuff so that they can be BETTER. In short, I'm just telling this kid to not waste his VALUABLE time on something as silly as goth. There's bajillion other things out there that's so much more profound and rewarding.

[Technowitch]

I see what you're saying, Kontan, but the architecture, art, and literary movements that assumed the gothic label predated gothic rock by a few centuries, and the fashion grew alongside the music scene.

You don't have to like the rest or strictly follow some nonexistant "Rules of Goth," but to discount the rest completely is a bit shortsighted.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Technowitch

I see what you're saying, Kontan, but the architecture, art, and literary movements that assumed the gothic label predated gothic rock by a few centuries, and the fashion grew alongside the music scene.

You don't have to like the rest or strictly follow some nonexistant "Rules of Goth," but to discount the rest completely is a bit shortsighted.

Techno, sorry. All that lovey dovey gothic stuff you were talking about is perfectly divorced from the actual musical movement.

Hate to break to you, but to not be a fan of goth rock does not make you a goth. It honestly doesn't matter if you love gothic literature, dress like Johnny Slut, and live in a gothic cathedral. If you seriously don't like goth rock, you just aren't a goth.

I find it absurd that people out there even consider those "secondary" things to even be qualifications on what makes someone a goth. There isn't enough secondary qualifications in the world that's going to make you a goth.

If I were an angsty teen, I'd don Hollister and get a tan, just to goth serve every single one of these gothic loving cookie cutter kids. But I'm not. I like my modded out clothing way too much to prove that silly little point.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Noirette

He is a kid.

So?

Originally Posted by Noirette

He won't see the way you see. He needs to experience and learn much more before he can do so.

Knew this was coming. "I'm old and therefore right."

Originally Posted by Noirette

I've been there. Unfitting completely for society, tryung to find myself. An 11 years old child. Then I found the stereotype of goth(the romantic-phylosophic thoughts about love, death, life and religion.) and fell inlove with it.

Hey, guess what? Not everyone's you.

Originally Posted by Noirette

Later I realized it was just it-a stereotype. But back then I simply couldn't understand it. Give him time to be innocent about things.

No, fuck that shit. Being young doesn't mean a damn, if you're stupid, you're fucking stupid, don't blame it on the fact that you're of diminutive years. And if you're old, you're just fucking old, it doesn't make you a genius.

Seriously, the amount of stupid kids and know-it-all old people I see is enough to drive me to jump into a pit of razors.

Let me put it this way.

Saying you're a Goth but you don't listen to Goth Rock is like saying you're a Metal fan but don't like Metal.

Yeah, exactly, it's stupid.

[Technowitch]

It's not that far removed from the music at all; same themes, and I'm willing to bet that many goth rockers took inspiration from that literature or the feelings evoked by looking at some of the darker Romantic art.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, Kontan. The word "goth" has been applied to so many things that neither of us can be the absolute authority on the current subculture.

EDIT: And I also never said that one didn't have to like gothic music to call themselves goth. That's just stupid. I just said the literature, art, and fashion are still part of the subculture.

[Methadrine]

This is becoming a fucking bloody habit, stating the bloody obvious:

*click me*

It's all there. Read and learn...