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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 06-15-2005, 01:40 AM   #1
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Constitutional Rights

So, in another thread someone challenged the idea that they were losing rights, so I bring you this thread, detailing the lost rights of the american citizen.

First, to date the figure below show the number of states, counties, and cities that have passed local resolutions banning use of the Patriot Act.

Nationwide figures as of June 15, 2005:
- 387 local, county, and state resolutions passed
- 276 efforts underway

I would also like to point out I personally helped while stateside to get the resolution passed in my city as well.

Now, the basic summary is this...

http://www.bordc.org/detail.php?id=49

The following constitutional rights thus far under the bush admininistration which have been given away in efforts to make the country 'secure' are as follows:

The 1st
The 4th
The 5th
The 6th
The 8th
The 14th

I can extrapolate on each of these, but it's easier to read the link above.

Of course now, just yesterday, this new legislation left committee and is now heading for congress.

Now, you can argue all you want about it, but it's exaxctly what it says - it's a new bill to remove all presidential constrainst listed in the 22 ammendment of the constitution. Thats right - the bush administration is now trying to give itself the power to rule as long as they want - removing all term restrictions from the office of the president. This means, if they continue to steal elections, like the last 2, bush could be the new president of the united states, forever.

Anyone else bothered by this?
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Old 06-15-2005, 07:41 AM   #2
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i'm curious about something -

what village raised you to hate all of the village of america?
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Old 06-15-2005, 09:56 AM   #3
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Old 06-15-2005, 10:20 AM   #4
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EE - there in lies the crux of your thinking. I hate the government, not the country. I hate the brit government. I have many british friends, doesn't mean anything. They hate their government as well. Hell, half of your own country hate, loath, protest in the streets about your government. Does that mean the hate the whole country?

To equate an attack on an elected official and his policies as an attack on the country and patriotism is something the bush admin has been trying to accomplish for quite some time. Too bad it shows up here all the time in this discussion group.

Slán
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Old 06-15-2005, 10:48 AM   #5
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Old 06-15-2005, 11:07 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by CptSternn
EE - there in lies the crux of your thinking. I hate the government, not the country. I hate the brit government. I have many british friends, doesn't mean anything. They hate their government as well. Hell, half of your own country hate, loath, protest in the streets about your government. Does that mean the hate the whole country?
the "crux of my thinking"? heh. the government is part of the country. you attack the government, you attack the country by default - and you attack us daily. such is the dilemma of being a nation of united states.

it's ok, though - really. there's so much anti-u.s. sentiment out there, it's almost not fashionable to appreciate the united states. so, take heart -you're quite mainstream. the liberal america-haters here appreciate your support. i always love the arguments that go something like - i love america, just not the way it is right now... which is essentially what you've said a bazillion times while trying to justify your anti-american rehtoric. if you don't like america now - guess what? you don't like america.

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Originally Posted by captsternn
To equate an attack on an elected official and his policies as an attack on the country and patriotism is something the bush admin has been trying to accomplish for quite some time. Too bad it shows up here all the time in this discussion group.
fuck bush and his admin. group. they've only got a couple more years and then they're out. i'm an american for life. i live in this country and i love what this country is. you spout bullshit about the government brainwashing the populace while the government you support in ireland carry machine guns and wear masks to make sure the people do what it wants. what you don't like is that true americans appreciate what they have by virtue of hard work and unforced patriotism. your own leaders and the leaders of nations all over the world can't figure out how that works, so they lash out against us and people like you follow their lead like an angry puppy dog. every attack you lay down is aimed at my country and for that - fuck you, too.
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Old 06-15-2005, 02:25 PM   #7
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E_E-As much as I love watching you pound into the mick like Ali into Foreman, the sad thing is that your line of logic can be fairly easilly broken apart in two ways.

"You attack the government, you attack the country"-umm, not really. Especially when you consider that the right to dissent is actually written into the constitution (the thing that actually defines WHAT America is), so in fact, dissenting with a governmental stance, or even the people withing the government, or even the structure of the government itself, is actually what America is all about.

"what you don't like is that true americans appreciate what they have by virtue of hard work and unforced patriotism. your own leaders and the leaders of nations all over the world can't figure out how that works, so they lash out against us and people like you follow their lead like an angry puppy dog."-this doesn't take into account the number of activities that have been engaged in the US' name that, well, pisses people off. Remember the little history lesson I gave about Iran? Now, imagine that happening worldwide. The problem here is that you're statement reeks of the "they hate freedom" argument that has been proven false over and over again once the facts have been looked over, and this is a problem with that argument-it implies a refusal to look at all of the facts, since this would imply admitting that fucked up stuff happens in our name.

Again, please feel free to smack Captain Crunch around, but please be careful of how you phrase your arguments. Sometimes, it can be used againsty you.
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Old 06-15-2005, 03:10 PM   #8
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ah, loy - you're breaking apart my argument like an angry foreigner...

heh.

the right to disagree with the government and work for change is absolutely an AMERICAN right. i just get tired of seeing a foreigner continually lambast my country just because he doesn't have a protestant or sinn fein dissident to kill right there in front of him. i'm also tired of listening to foreigners bash america because my country doesn't conform to what they want it to be. it all just gets... tiresome. not to worry, though. a few hours of sleep will reset my attitude.

as for the second point - it has nothing to do with the "they hate freedom" argument. it has to do with the "they hate america" argument. that's it. no hidden agenda. you mention things that "piss people off" but that's not all there is to america. the problem is - the good that comes out of america has become expected to the point of exclusion of formal recognition. all that receives focus is the negative or perceived negative - the fucked up stuff you mentioned.

it's hatred, without being called hatred - for america.
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Old 06-15-2005, 03:43 PM   #9
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Loy, I hate to disagree with you, but edible's post up there is about perfect.

It IS fashionable to hate the U.S., and certain American citizens who love cultures from outside of here would like to fit in to this way of thinking.

Of course there will always be dissent from right here, there are militias, after all.

And this hate has been around for many presidents.

Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian, wrote the following about the U.S.. It resurfaced not long after 9/11 and was falsely credited to being written right after, long after Mr. Sinclair had passed on (I've had the record for years, it was released with "America The Beautiful playing behing it) so can anyone, after reading it, tell me when it was written? It fits even today...

"The Americans"

"The United States dollar took another pounding on German, French and British exchanges this morning, hitting the lowest point ever known in West Germany. It has declined there by 41% since 1971 and this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least-appreciated people in all the earth.

As long as sixty years ago, when I first started to read newspapers, I read of floods on the Yellow River and the Yangtse. Who rushed in with men and money to help? The Americans did.

They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the Ganges and the Niger. Today, the rich bottom land of the Misssissippi is under water and no foreign land has sent a dollar to help. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of those countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries into help... Managua Nicaragua is one of the most recent examples. So far this spring, 59 American communities have been flattened by tornadoes. Nobody has helped.

The Marshall Plan .. the Truman Policy .. all pumped billions upon billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now, newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent war-mongering Americans.

I'd like to see one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplanes.

Come on... let's hear it! Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar or the Douglas 107? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all international lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or women on the moon?

You talk about Japanese technocracy and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times ... and safely home again. You talk about scandals and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everyone to look at. Even the draft dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, most of them ... unless they are breaking Canadian laws .. are getting American dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.

When the Americans get out of this bind ... as they will... who could blame them if they said 'the hell with the rest of the world'. Let someone else buy the Israel bonds, Let someone else build or repair foreign dams or design foreign buildings that won't shake apart in earthquakes.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name to you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble.

Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbours have faced it alone and I am one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles.

I hope Canada is not one of these. But there are many smug, self-righteous Canadians. And finally, the American Red Cross was told at its 48th Annual meeting in New Orleans this morning that it was broke.

This year's disasters .. with the year less than half-over… has taken it all and nobody...but nobody... has helped."



Without Googling, take a guess as to when that was written (and who was the president at the time).

In closing, CanadioWn3d.
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Old 06-15-2005, 03:45 PM   #10
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If you can't seperate your government from your leaders, you have bigger issues. Think about the majority of americans who didnt vote for bush. Think they all hate america as well? What about the 100,000+ protesters just a few weeks back? All terrorists to? Whynot tell them to fuck off because they are not good lemming...err..patriots.

While your at it, why not blow up the statue of liberty, as it is a constant reminder of how those damn french saved the states from the brits.
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Old 06-15-2005, 04:14 PM   #11
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first, AMERICANS protesting our own government is part of the AMERICAN way of life. and i love the way you say - "the majority of americans who didnt vote for bush". ha. still crying over that, even though the topic of kerry is dead, huh? guess what? bush won. get over it.

unfortunately, many of those who voted against bush absolutely DO hate america - NOT because of bush but because they want america to rewrite itself as a more communist-like nation - but even that's all right because they're AMERICANS. it's THEIR right. and unfortunately, it's also their right to cry like whipped babies since they lost, crying that goes on and on and on and on.... cripes, even my kids don't cry that much.

protesters become terrorists only when they interrupt normal, everyday life for normal, everyday people and should be treated as such. if you've got something to say - say it. if you infringe on my rights to go about my daily activities - then you're terrorizing me. AND you're a fuckwad to boot.

and second - i'd love to see the statue of liberty shipped back to france. fuckin' outdated token of friendship and respect. shove it up chirac's ass.

and a quick lesson - france and the u.s. built the statue as a joint venture, it wasn't all france. france made the statue itself and america built the pedestal. and this contention you keep fronting about france saving the states from the brits - that's so sternn-like in its essence, it's not worth commenting on. you really need to read more.
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Old 06-15-2005, 08:55 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by CptSternn
Think about the majority of americans who didnt vote for bush. Think they all hate america as well?
Only the pissy people who flocked to places like Canada and Northern Ireland for good immediately after the elections. Guess they just couldn't tell the leaders apart from the government. These must be the people you speak of with "bigger issues."
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Old 06-16-2005, 12:57 AM   #13
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E_E, I don't suppose that you'd be willing to pretend to be a young single woman? Seeing a female hand someone his ass in politics is hot.

Sternn.

Now, I favor repealing the majority of the Patriot Act, but stating that it violates most of the Amendments is, well, inane.

First Amendment. Your right to free speech stops when you advocate a felony.

Fourth Amendment. Agreed, mostly.

Fifth Amendment. Terrorists are enemy combatants who have no right to be tried by civil jury; let them be dealt with by military tribunal, as we've done for two centuries. And again, note the actual text: "No person shall be held to answer. . . blah blah Grand Jury. . . except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, when in time of war or public danger."

Sixth Amendment. It's difficult to provide witnesses against someone when they're currently fighting halfway around the world, particularly so when they were actively fighting the detainee. Furthermore, the Bill of Rights doesn't apply to non-citizens -- note that we can detain and deport foreigners without trial.

Eight Amendment. Will you shut up about this? The extent of the "torture" is that we put people in cold rooms, or else deprive them of the benefit of airconditioning, or generally fail to provide them with ice for their soft drinks. We provide them with fucking Korans at our own expense when they're in prison, for God's sake.

The legislation that you mentioned. Good, I never liked the 22nd Amendment. If a president is doing a good job, and the people like him and consider nobody else capable of occupying his office, it's their right to continue to vest their trust in him.

Quote:
Think about the majority of americans who didnt vote for bush. Think they all hate america as well? What about the 100,000+ protesters just a few weeks back? All terrorists to? Whynot tell them to fuck off because they are not good lemming...err..patriots.
They're entitled to their opinion. They also, you know, LOST, twice (three times, if you count the 2002 senate elections when the GOP picked up seats), so we can very easily tell them to fuck off. Oh, and the 100k+ protesters -- they shut down traffic in New York, the financial capital of the world, for a day, generally preventing people from moving about the city easily. I don't recall "the right to obstruct people's daily lives" as being listed in the Constitution.

Quote:
While your at it, why not blow up the statue of liberty, as it is a constant reminder of how those damn french saved the states from the brits.
Actually, the French did jack shit until we had already won a few victories over the Brits. And sure, they did help us when they wanted to make the Brits bleed, but we've paid them back for it. Twice, with far more American blood than they ever shed French for us. And they're still ungrateful bastards.

Don't most European countries and Canada have thoughtcrime laws? Criticize Islam by stating historical fact and get sent to prison? Why don't you go complain about their restrictions on free speech?
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Old 06-16-2005, 04:28 AM   #14
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E_E, I don't suppose that you'd be willing to pretend to be a young single woman? Seeing a female hand someone his ass in politics is hot.
i guess i'll say no to this. my chest is too hairy and if i remember correctly, you're under 18 and that would make me a dirty, old, transexual pedophile - and that's just plain awful and wrong.
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Old 06-25-2005, 12:28 AM   #15
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E_E, it was a weak joke, the sort that comes from being awake way, way too long at a time, mixed with lots of caffeine (and I'm sure some other things).

Mm. Caffeine.
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Old 06-25-2005, 09:53 AM   #16
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oh, i knew you were making a joke, bud. i was making one right back at you....

- why? does the concept of me being a dirty, old, transexual pedophile not even cause you to blink an eye?

maybe i'm presenting myself the wrong way....
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Old 07-01-2005, 05:20 PM   #17
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Mark, Al and Aurai, I <3 you guys so, so much!


Uh, that is all, carry on........


:twisted:
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Old 07-02-2005, 09:44 PM   #18
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oh, i knew you were making a joke, bud. i was making one right back at you....

- why? does the concept of me being a dirty, old, transexual pedophile not even cause you to blink an eye?

maybe i'm presenting myself the wrong way....
*wicked grin*

Transexuals are hot, if done well.

*gets out nair with malicious intent*
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Old 08-28-2005, 12:32 PM   #19
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Old 08-28-2005, 12:50 PM   #20
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Not to go against my very-American beliefs but....

That would make an awesome T-Shirt.
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Old 08-28-2005, 01:04 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edible_eye
unfortunately, many of those who voted against bush absolutely DO hate america - NOT because of bush but because they want america to rewrite itself as a more communist-like nation - but even that's all right because they're AMERICANS. it's THEIR right. and unfortunately, it's also their right to cry like whipped babies since they lost, crying that goes on and on and on and on.... cripes, even my kids don't cry that much.
I'm not seeing how a group of people hates America simply because it isn't absolutely happy about it and believes it should change.

Or is this about wanting to become more communist and that's what means they hate America?
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Old 08-28-2005, 01:27 PM   #22
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they hate america the way it is, despise its roots - specifically the notion that one should work for what one owns - and feel guilty for their birth here, the fact that they live here, mainly because the rest of the world despises us. they have no backbone. they have no spine. they want to create what they believe will be an equal society, essentially by taxing the piss out of those who work in order to supplement and pay for those who don't. they would be happy to relinquish the sovereignty of this land to those in the united nations. they seek acceptance only from outside the country, wanting to please the rest of the world while simultaneously berating the land within which they live.

blah, blah, blah.
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Old 08-28-2005, 02:06 PM   #23
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Our former roomate, "Bob", told us his wife cried and had a breakdown after Kerry lost this past election.

>_< I fear the next bloodbath,...

And true Edible...how many people actually moved out of the country afterwards?
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Old 08-28-2005, 02:08 PM   #24
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Whereas I think America is taking a step backwards, and the fault lies with Bush and Co. and their being responsible - through the politics of fear and arrogance - for the reduction of civil liberties of my American friends (especially the erosion of the 4th amendment). They may even be some things I strongly dislike about the US (hate is too strong a word for what I feel), however, overall, I'm rather fond of the US.

You know there's even some things I think are badly phrased and even wrong about your constitution, but overall, it's pretty cool.

On what you were saying about the governement, the government is a small part of what America is, heck, hating your governement doesn't mean you hate America, it means you hate a part of it. Afterall, the Declaration of Independance says "We the people", no "We the elected representatives of the people" even though you're a Republic.
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Old 08-28-2005, 02:11 PM   #25
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Our former roomate, "Bob", told us his wife cried and had a breakdown after Kerry lost this past election.

>_< I fear the next bloodbath,...

And true Edible...how many people actually moved out of the country afterwards?
Yeah, I was kind of hoping for Kerry to win, even though Bush winning was to my advantage.

If Kerry won, I would never have been able to afford to visit.

Not that I particularly liked Kerry, I preferred Dean, but I didn't like Bush and Kerry seemed to have a more reasonable position.
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