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Old 11-24-2007, 11:27 PM   #1
Godslayer Jillian
 
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Goth and Consumerism

Consumerism - The attempt to fulfill happiness with material possessions.

Question:
Even the DIY goths that don't spend much money on trying to buy happiness, are we not all compliant consumerists by preferring to dress as we do?


Answers!



annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn' raionalizations








go.
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Old 11-24-2007, 11:57 PM   #2
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I guess would depend on the personal convictions. My wardrobe is chosen for utility. Yes, I do have a Crass t-shirt. I would be just as happy with a plain, black t-shirt as well. Black T-shirts are comfy.

So are BDU's. It just happens that I like camouflage. It doesn't mean I wouldn't be happy with just having blue jeans. Which, I have pairs of those too.

The fact that my pants are not breaking down, does make my happy. By extension, this makes me happy because of something that I own, which is a material good.

So I my happiness is fulfilled by a material possession. It doesn't mean I am necessarily more happy because I chose it over any other possession though.

Clothing, on average, improves our condition, whether it is DIY or not. It keeps you from freezing your ass off, and burning up from sweat. So that naturally makes people happy.

And, if happiness because of materials = consumerism, then we're all consumerists.
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Old 11-25-2007, 12:05 AM   #3
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Yeah, I was thinking something within those lines. With such an unavoidable definition, I think it would be folly to not only believe one can escape all forms of consumerism, but believe it's good to try to completely avoid all forms of consumerism.
So where do we draw a defined line where material happiness becomes as frivolous as it sounds and when does a member of a subculture that claims to promote individuality and that stemmed out of another that was anti-consumerist and anti-establishment become a consumerist?
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Old 11-25-2007, 12:08 AM   #4
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I don't there is a real rational way to do it, because you'd have to look at intent.

I think it becomes an issue of 'Does it improve your condition of life', meaning ease of survive. If it improves your condition of life a considerable amount, it is frivolous to argue if it is consumerist or not.

However, if it doesn't improve your condition of life, then it can fall in to the category of consumerism.
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Old 11-25-2007, 01:10 AM   #5
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I don't see what's wrong with being consumerist. We exist within a consumerist culture, we all sustain ourselves through the purchase of products with currency we accrue through enacting production ourselves. Participating in this process can't possibly be contrary to the 'Goth ethos' because every goth band has, at least at one point, rendered their music as a good, and even were such music offered to the populace freely for the sake of artistic expression, its creators still bought all of their guitars, all of their clothes, and the technology required to generate records.
I enjoy gothic fashion. I have no qualms with giving someone money in exchange for their helping me to dress in a style which I enjoy. Consumerism seems to have this stigma associated with it, and I can't understand that- you can't escape the system.
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Old 11-25-2007, 01:25 AM   #6
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Your a consumer no matter HOW you look at it. If you sew your outfit from scratch then you are buying the fabric, aren't you? Someone somewhere is gonna make a buck off of you. The only way I can see avoiding consumerism is theft. I'm with gothicusmaximus on this. (I seem to agree with him a lot.)

Besides, I don't think that a little consumerism is as bad as using your look to provide a "better than thou" status symbol. But that's just my worthless two cents.
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Old 11-25-2007, 10:38 PM   #7
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not to nit pick, but wouldn't the term materialism suit your definition a bit better? I was under the impression the term consumerism referred to the idea that buying more and more and more at an ever accelerating rate was good for the economy (which, I don't agree with, by the way)?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
So where do we draw a defined line where material happiness becomes as frivolous as it sounds and when does a member of a subculture that claims to promote individuality and that stemmed out of another that was anti-consumerist and anti-establishment become a consumerist?

I guess we could draw the line of frivolity where our wants exceed our needs or means. And as far as a member within a subculture going against the philosophy or system of belief from which that subculture sprang, I think that line is drawn at the same point that fair business practices are. The whole point to rebelling against the big business corporations was because they were stomping on the little guy, not just beating them through good old honest competition, but playing dirty, so to speak. DIY allowed for genuine individuality, in a way that people hadn't seen since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Culturally, they felt that mass production by the corporations had robbed them of that individuality, simply by changing the availability of goods and affecting how people spent their time.

The long and the short of it is this; you get out what you put in, whether that is through the time and effort put forth in creating something from raw materials and cast offs, or the time and effort required to obtain money to shell out for something already made.

How much of your life is the object worth to you? If the cost is less than than that amount, the object isn't frivolous. If the cost is more, then it is.

At least most of the time. When I am standing there looking at that absolutely PERFECT black leather coat, or that fabulous corset top, or that wonderful set of snap-on gear wrenches, or that exquisite, hand carved Chinese writing desk (none of which I can afford, or am likely to be able to afford in the near future) my views tend to get a little skewed.
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Because some people are dicks. And not everyone else is gay.
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Old 11-26-2007, 09:04 AM   #8
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Consumerist? Almost certainly.
I have become quite shallow, and admit it. I want to make sure that my personal appearance is as I dictate- I don't tend to follow fashion within the scene (otherwise I'd have bought hair falls) or outside it (otherwise I'd wear garish colour). But I do want to make sure I look as I want to. Occasionally buying things helps this- my corsetry accentuates my waist, my long skirts look graceful. And there's just something so nice about being able to get something when I've fallen in lust with it.

On the other hand, I wouldn't put buying clothing over going out with my friends, I wouldn't put accessories over companionship, and I certainly wouldn't choose to buy Shineh New Stuff if one my friends needed to borrow cash from me to help with their problems instead.
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Old 11-26-2007, 12:35 PM   #9
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At every level it is consumerism. Let's say your Goth outfit is completely home made with no mass produced items at all. You are still consumerist, because you are representing your affinity for a certain genre of music, which you consume. OK, let's say you steal the music by downloading it for free from the internet. You are still consumerist, because you had to use an expensive computer to download the music. Let's say it isn't your computer but your friend's computer. So if multiple people share the same resource, it divides the cost of the resource, so perhaps you did not buy the whole computer, but you probably had to barter or trade favors or something to gain access to the friend's computer.

You can't get away from consumerism without eventually getting away from Goth.

Me? I admit to having spent thousands on my Goth lifestyle. Yes, I could have donated it to charity, but I ALREADY donate to charity as well, so my conscience is clear.

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Old 11-26-2007, 12:46 PM   #10
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Old 11-26-2007, 01:18 PM   #11
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There's nothing wrong with fulfilling happiness with material stuff :/ Especially if that "material" stuff is part of your self expression, like clothing or a musical instrument. It's not quite the same thing as consumerism.
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Old 11-26-2007, 04:15 PM   #12
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I guess we could also say you are being a compliant consumer if you simply work with the color pallette and styles the subculture has mapped out for its mongers because you think it's "Goth" to do so, instead of genuinely liking the color and styles.

People who go against these subcultural norms are still consumers because they are "buying" stuff, but not consumers who are "buying into" the norm; into the lifestyle that these businesses try to sell. Thus, they are, along with people who actually like what they're wearing even if it has become the standard, the real individuals.

Subcultural stores only encourage individuality to a certain point. Most of them, anyways. In a way, by encouraging their buyers to only buy clothes in a certain pallette or style, they can control their market, predict future trends, and know that their customers will pretty much only shop at the same stores again. Thus ensuring business. If that makes sense. Mainstream stores are like that, too. You'll never see Charlotte Rusee or Anne Taylor encouraging people to shop at Spencer's or Hot Topic.
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Old 11-26-2007, 04:38 PM   #13
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'Does it improve your condition of life'.

Ok, I may be going out on a limb saying this and i'm not sure if it's going to make sense ,but, couldn't we say that consumerism has also led to death, real death, in our society? Like, what's a good example, well, teenage and even adult suicide and violence acted out because the people in question, the people who committed the crime or self-injury, didn't fit the consumer model? For example, people who are ridiculed by peers because they do not have [insert brand name] appareil and whatnot. Not like this excuses anything. No no. I'm just pointing out that obviously there is a certain model of the perfect consumer in our society. And is it really healthy to have such a model, knowing that not everyone isn't going to fit it? Not like businesses care, of course. They're cutthroat, we know. But I can definitely see where there would be a problem with consumerism.

Everything that has to do with systematic order isn't wrong. But some of it is really damaging on other levels. Even if, on a national level, it does benefit the society, what about its detrimental effect on the individual?

There is a double question there.
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Old 11-26-2007, 04:43 PM   #14
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Ahh. I kinda went off on a tangent there. I'm sorta known for it. Sorry.
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Old 11-26-2007, 04:45 PM   #15
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silverbaal: if you are referring to blood diamonds, I can see your point, but Goths buy CDs. Now granted, when you buy a Christian Death CD, you are consuming music that ultimately involves a dead musician, but that is the exception. Yes, music can have a detrimental effect on the artists, and some of them kill themselves. But music for the vast majority of people has enhanced life, helped us to enjoy richer lives. Now regarding clothing: yes, there have probably been an automobile accident or two involving clothing designers, clothing transporters, etc, where someone was killed, but someone is killed occasionally transporting carrots, wine, toys, toilet paper and who knows what else. It is part of the chance we take making and transporting anything. Hmmm, now I think I am rambling. Does this make sense? O_o
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Old 11-26-2007, 04:48 PM   #16
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Erm. I meant consumerism can have a detrimental effect on us consumers, because it forces us into consumer models. (Wow, I said that in two sentences.) Read it again, I wasn't talking about the musicians. Where did you get "artists" from? Confused. o_0
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Old 11-26-2007, 04:54 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverbaal
Erm. I meant consumerism can have a detrimental effect on us consumers, because it forces us into consumer models. (Wow, I said that in two sentences.) Read it again, I wasn't talking about the musicians. Where did you get "artists" from? Confused. o_0
Because this thread is about Goth lifestyle and consumerism. Not just consumerism.
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Old 11-26-2007, 04:58 PM   #18
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*Reads your post again* I can't believe you got that from reading post #13. Ok. I will attempt to explain I think. *is typing*
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Old 11-26-2007, 05:08 PM   #19
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Nah. I think you got it and I don't feel like writing anymore longwinded post.
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Old 11-26-2007, 05:15 PM   #20
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Blood Diamonds? You mean that flick with Leo? Uber confusion. Brain overload.
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Old 11-26-2007, 11:01 PM   #21
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Materialist, sure; for CD's and clothing. But to me, consumerist implies someone who does one or more of the following: frequently buys bulk goods, eats frequently and of large portions, regularly replaces their electronics, appliances, and automobiles, drives everywhere. Some goths might be like that, but I certainly am not.
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Old 11-27-2007, 02:34 AM   #22
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I don't think it really matters, we're all consumers. Unless you're a hermit who forages for food, you can't escape it.

Aslong as you know what should be put first, what is more important than material possessions and your life isn't dictated by these things, then...it's cool.
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:22 AM   #23
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Yup. We're all consumers unless we're stealing or we do the whole textile growing, harvesting, manufacturing, and dying stuff.
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:35 AM   #24
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Buying things and choosing one style of shirt, etc. which is most pleasing to the individual in need of clothing over another option is what all people do when there are choices to choose from. Additional, unnecessary adornment go backs thousands of years and has present, ofter prominent, in all cultures. I don't think it is any more prevalent in the goth subculture than anywhere else, to be honest. JMO
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