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Old 02-01-2005, 10:14 AM   #176
Granny-like_the_apple
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn
1. There will never be democracy in Iraq. How can a group of countries, many who not even democratic themselves (ie. palau, liberia, etc) bring something they themselves do not posess to another county.
How? I don't know, maybe by holding free elections in Iraq? I think that might be a start. Damn, that'll never happen, though.

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2. The us will piss away billions and put itself in a financial crisis with the continued war. The same way they did in Nam, which lead to the resession through the seventies. Those in school there now will pay the bill in the next few generations.
Money is a legitimate concern.

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3. Americans will die, for no reason. Once the people wake up and realise they are fighting a pointless war and pissing away money, they will get angry. They also will lash out at the government and they will pull out the troops, much like is happening now in Northern Ireland. They have this month alonh removed 5,000 troops from the belfast area and reopened the mountains for hiking - the mountains have been closed since 1921.
Pointless? Ireland is not Iraq. Good lord, get some objectivity.

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4. Once the war crimes come out, america will really look bad. Thing of what we have seen thus far - its alot like crime in the streets. IF the police arrest a large amount of drug dealers, you know there are even more they havent caught out there. Same with war crimes. For every one you find, there are a half dozen more waiting to come out later.
This might be true. Might not. Why do you care if America looks bad, though? All you do is point out how fucking awful the US is.

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5. The troops are demoralised. They will themselves begin to leave soon. Tis why the army has the stop loss program in place.
Who are you to speak for the troops? Because most say that they're there for a damn good reason. You can disagree, but don't displace your own crap onto them.

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6. The insugents as well as the 'terrorists' are not oppposed to 'freedom' as bush continues to claim. If so, then why don't they attack canada, finland, iceland, ireland, luxemborg, holland, or one of the other democractic nations they can simple drive to? Why? Because the foreign policies of those nations do not involve their own personal resources and oil interest in anyway. They also don't give 12 billion a year to the israelis for guns and bombs.
HAH. Way to put "terrorists" in quotes and not "insurgents". You think bin Laden isn't a terrorist? I want an answer to this. Do you think terrorist is an unfair or inaccurate description of bin Laden?

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7. The Iraq war will be yet another blemish on the countyr of america. I mean, over 20,000 civilians, mostly women and childenmr have been killed by the united states in the name of freedom. I bet if you ask the relatives of those people what they think (I have) you won't see the rainbows and roses they talk about on the news.
In the name of freedom? How awful! Fuck freedom!
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Old 02-01-2005, 10:32 AM   #177
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i trust the beginning of your post outlines episodes of your own, painful past and not just some adopted angst-ridden rhetoric from whom you keep company. if those things have happened to you personally - i can only offer my condolences. if they are merely the preachings of the terrorists you side with - then please, shit-can the dramatics.

Quote:
"you have no way to know how or what I support."
this is true, but you've not denied an affiliation of any sort with the ira when it has been proposed, not while i've been on the board anyway.

-----------------------------

anyway, if you get a chance, take a look at this. you can relish in the upstanding accomplishments of your peers. a warning to some - there are a few disturbing images.

http://www.upmj.co.uk/new_movie.php4

and as far as iraq goes, i wish we'd pulled out the moment we realized there were no weapons of mass destruction. end of threat = end of invasion.

the people of iraq mean about as much to me, personally, as a parade of ants on a sunny, springtime day - i hold no ill will toward any of them, but if they were being stomped on by someone else, so be it. that's essentially the way they've existed for decades anyway. it's unfortunate that americans have to lose their lives because an entire country of people can't stand up on their own. there's inherent honor in the fact that america is standing up for those who crave the ability to take their country into their own hands and for whatever reason - can not. there's also confusion, for me, why it has become the responsibility of the united states. i understand the reports i hear, i just don't understand why. one american dying for iraqi freedom is one american too many. i say, bring our boys and girls home and let that country sink into desolation, for all i care. if iraqis really want to be free, they'll ensure that it survives.

every picture i've seen with smiling iraqi faces holding up their purple finger would have meant more if the iraqis had done that for themselves.

we made the decision to stay, though and as usual we're true to our word. my brother is over there now and he volunteered to go. he wanted to help out in iraq and for that, i have nothing further to say other than perhaps he and others in this country have a more altruistic soul than i.

as for sternn's ideology - perhaps this will shed some light. a terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist. they always get pissed off when someone stands up and refuses to be threatened cuz it makes them realize they ain't the shit.

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Old 02-01-2005, 11:01 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by edible_eye
and as far as iraq goes, i wish we'd pulled out the moment we realized there were no weapons of mass destruction. end of threat = end of invasion.
We were finished invading once it was finally determined that there no WMD's. Years later, actually. If people had listened to Scott Ritter, the weapons inspector, before we did anything, we might not have had to go in at all.

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the people of iraq mean about as much to me, personally, as a parade of ants on a sunny, springtime day - i hold no ill will toward any of them, but if they were being stomped on by someone else, so be it. that's essentially the way they've existed for decades anyway. it's unfortunate that americans have to lose their lives because an entire country of people can't stand up on their own. there's inherent honor in the fact that america is standing up for those who crave the ability to take their country into their own hands and for whatever reason - can not. there's also confusion, for me, why it has become the responsibility of the united states. i understand the reports i hear, i just don't understand why. one american dying for iraqi freedom is one american too many. i say, bring our boys and girls home and let that country sink into desolation, for all i care.
Wow. I don't even know what to say to this. You just don't care? At all? Just because they live in a different country and they're USED to it? You care if an anonymous American soldier dies, but not hundreds of thousands of anonymous Iraqis? Wow.
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Old 02-01-2005, 11:12 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Granny-like_the_apple
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the people of iraq mean about as much to me, personally, as a parade of ants on a sunny, springtime day - i hold no ill will toward any of them, but if they were being stomped on by someone else, so be it. that's essentially the way they've existed for decades anyway. it's unfortunate that americans have to lose their lives because an entire country of people can't stand up on their own. there's inherent honor in the fact that america is standing up for those who crave the ability to take their country into their own hands and for whatever reason - can not. there's also confusion, for me, why it has become the responsibility of the united states. i understand the reports i hear, i just don't understand why. one american dying for iraqi freedom is one american too many. i say, bring our boys and girls home and let that country sink into desolation, for all i care.
Wow. I don't even know what to say to this. You just don't care? At all? Just because they live in a different country and they're USED to it? You care if an anonymous American soldier dies, but not hundreds of thousands of anonymous Iraqis? Wow.
I couldn't agree more. What is it, e_e? What is it about that one American soldier that makes his/her life *so* much more important than hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens? You do realize that they are both people, right? They both have families, morals, mothers, fathers, etc. etc.? Who are you to judge the value of human life, simply based upon the fact that it's from another culture?
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Old 02-01-2005, 12:38 PM   #180
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the difference is - IRAQIS live in iraq, not americans. we went there to neutralize a threat, not to bring democracy. i don't remember a press conference EVER stating that was our objective early on. since when did the american military become the builder of a nation outside of our border? it's always nice and pleasant to see people laughing, smiling and dancing in the streets but when you get right down to it - what are they deriving their joy from? the fact that americans came and did something for them? those are adults in those photos, not suckling pigs that have no ability to fight for themselves. if they (iraqis) want their freedom, let them fight for it. when a way of life is handed to someone, rather than earned by those willing to fight for it, it means very little in the hearts and minds of those who receive it. it's a gift, nothing more and one that will easily be lost for there is no solid standing behind it by the same people who held up their finger in all those photos.

it has nothing to do with the value of one life for another. it has everything to do with a nation saying they've had enough and standing up to make good on that frustration. what happens when america does pull out and the people who voted are taxed for the first time with a rebellion? does america come rushing back in? will that be our fight then also? where do we draw the line? at present, what iraq is learning is - america will handle it.

global communities are only convenient when someone needs something from someone else. global communities have shown, at the heart of this war in iraq, that those sitting at the top are set to make a lot of money - the scandals within the u.n. have made that all too clear. this isn't a black-and-white issue of - is an american worth more than an iraqi? this is, for iraq, a question of whether freedom is worth more than oppression. and it is they who should be working on the answer - not america.
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Old 02-01-2005, 01:49 PM   #181
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Whether or not it's our responsibility to do this, whether or not America should be "nation-building" is a different discussion, and I can see both sides there, mostly because I don't really have a firm stand on it. I wasn't trying to make a political argument, though, but a personal one. What I was responding to was your attitude that you simply don't care if Iraqis couldn't stand up against Saddam, that they got themselves into that situation, it's their fault, and fuck em. You said that there's "inherent honor" in America standing up for Iraqis, but you don't care about that, you don't want a single American life ended for their freedom.

"if they were being stomped on by someone else, so be it. that's essentially the way they've existed for decades anyway... i say, bring our boys and girls home and let that country sink into desolation, for all i care."

That's what I don't understand. You don't seem to feel any sort of compassion for them because they're weak.
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Old 02-01-2005, 02:32 PM   #182
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INSURGENTS CLAIM CAPTURE OF U.S. SOLDIER!










Now the military has stated they are not missing anyone...and for those who think they are lying, you might want to look at this...







U.S. military: No soldier missing in Iraq



BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- The U.S. military said Tuesday that no American soldiers have been reported missing in Iraq after a Web statement claimed that an American soldier had been taken hostage.

The authenticity of the statement and photo, purporting to show a hostage with a gun to his head, could not be verified, and questions were raised about the photo's authenticity.

In Baghdad, Staff Sgt. Nick Minecci of the U.S. military's press office in Baghdad said "no units have reported anyone missing."

The posting, on a Web site that frequently carries militants' statements, included a photo of what that statement said was an American soldier, wearing desert fatigues and seated on a concrete floor with his hands tied behind his back.

The figure in the photo appeared stiff and expressionless.

Liam Cusack, of the toy manufacturer Dragon Models USA, Inc., said the image of the soldier portrayed in the photo bore a striking resemblance to a military action figure made by the company.

In the photo, a gun barrel was pointed at the head of the man's figure, and behind him on the wall was a black banner emblazoned with the Islamic profession of faith, "There is no god but God and Muhammad is His prophet."

A statement posted with the picture suggested the group was holding other soldiers.

"Our mujahedeen heroes of Iraq's Jihadi Battalion were able to capture American military man John Adam after killing a number of his comrades and capturing the rest," said the statement, signed by the "Mujahedeen Brigades." :lol:

The posting did not show any ID card for the alleged captive and no organization's name was written on the black banner, as have appeared in some past claims of kidnappings. The man's uniform had no U.S. insignia or names visible.

The Mujahedeen Brigades have claimed responsibility for two kidnappings in the past -- the abduction in April of three Japanese who were released and that of a Brazilian engineer who went missing after an ambush that the Brigades claimed to have carried out along with the Ansar al-Sunnah Army.

More than 180 foreigners have been kidnapped in the past year. At least 10 of them, including three American civilians, remain in the hands of their kidnappers.

The only American soldier known to have been taken hostage is Pfc. Keith M. Maupin, 20, of Batavia, Ohio, who was shown in a video in April being held by militants. Another video aired in June showed what purported to be Maupin's slaying, but the picture was too unclear to confirm it was him and the military still lists him as missing.

Marine Cpl. Wassef Ali Hassoun went missing in Iraq in June and later photos surfaced on Arab television showing him blindfolded with a sword to his head. In July he made his way to the U.S. Embassy in Beirut. Back in the United States, he said he had been captured, but in December he was charged with desertion for the incident.


"Nooooo! They got John Adam!"
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Old 02-01-2005, 02:35 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Granny-like_the_apple
HAH. Way to put "terrorists" in quotes and not "insurgents". You think bin Laden isn't a terrorist? I want an answer to this. Do you think terrorist is an unfair or inaccurate description of bin Laden?
Sternn's not the person to be asking. He isn't even informed about the people he sympathizes with. That's how uneducated and naive he really is.

Just as an FYI to those who don't know (i.e. Sternn): Islamic fudamentalists do oppose democracy and freedom because it takes away the manditory rule of Islamic Law and replaces it with "liberties" and "freedoms" that weren't traditionally present in muslim life (especially for women). Many Islamic hardline conservatives oppose this very strongly and contend that democracy takes away the rule of Allah and places it in the hands of men. And here's the funny thing; Sternn was actually arguing this point in his stupid ass thread saying that Islam didn't want freedom earlier. That it was stomping on it's traditions. Now he says the opposite.

Ha... ol' Sternn's a flip-flopper.
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Old 02-01-2005, 02:47 PM   #184
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HA! They dressed up a doll and expect people to believe it's an American soldier. Oh man... to quote an Iraqi, these people are "mentally retarded cockroaches."
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Old 02-01-2005, 03:07 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Granny-like_the_apple
Whether or not it's our responsibility to do this, whether or not America should be "nation-building" is a different discussion, and I can see both sides there, mostly because I don't really have a firm stand on it. I wasn't trying to make a political argument, though, but a personal one. What I was responding to was your attitude that you simply don't care if Iraqis couldn't stand up against Saddam, that they got themselves into that situation, it's their fault, and fuck em. You said that there's "inherent honor" in America standing up for Iraqis, but you don't care about that, you don't want a single American life ended for their freedom.

"if they were being stomped on by someone else, so be it. that's essentially the way they've existed for decades anyway... i say, bring our boys and girls home and let that country sink into desolation, for all i care."

That's what I don't understand. You don't seem to feel any sort of compassion for them because they're weak.
there IS inherent honor in america standing up for a nation that is either unable or incapable of standing up for themselves - that doesn't mean it should be done. it's the same type of honor bestowed upon the quiet guy in school who stands up for the small kid in the face of a bully, for whatever reason he's decided to intervene. it's nice, the small kid dances with joy but when the quiet guy walks away, the bully is ready for retaliation and may strike whenever he wishes. we can celebrate with the small kid, not that we necessarily like or dislike who he is, but it's the quiet guy who has aroused our passion. he is the one upon whom interest lies. does this help the small kid to protect himself the next time the bully approaches or does he shout for the quite guy yet again? will the quiet guy come to his aid when he calls, since he's now set a precedent?

as for american life versus iraqi life - i would ask that you look beyond the arena of one life over another. my comments are not based on the "weight" of one american versus one iraqi. life is life, as both you and teapot-hot have pointed out. my comments are pointed toward the establishment of iraq as an independant nation, free of their former oppression and the means by which they arrive at that point. my contention is that we've gone way above and beyond our duty. the ball should be in iraq's hands now.

american soldiers should not be dying to free iraq. period. our military serves the u.s.a. our military is trained in the school of nullifying, killing and breaking everything they can when they've been dispatched to combat a threat. that's what they do. when the perceived threat in iraq was found to be invalid, we should have pulled out. that's my opinion. if iraq wants to vote and be free and democratic - fine. i don't think it's america's responsibility to ensure this for them.

on the subject of compassion - first, we'd have to establish what compassion really means. is compassion taking over for someone because we believe they have not the capacity to do for themselves and if that's the case, where do we draw the line when people from other nations come to us and ask us to help them form a democracy because they don't like the government they currently live under? that's not the reason we went into iraq and shouldn't be the reason we stay. if we're setting a precedent of toppling governments to spread democracy and using american soldiers to do so, how many american lives should we allocate toward the building of other nations? since when did revolution = send in american troops? compassion, to me, is realizing the difficult road before the IRAQI people and supporting them when they need support - but for god's sake, fighting someone else's battle keeps them exactly where they are right now - in a state of subordination. someone else is in control of their life and their destiny. perhaps they aren't being threatened with death and violence against family members from saddam's minions, but they still have no sense of what it means to be free.

and finally, there's a difference between being weak and being beaten into submission. i would argue the iraqis have been the latter, rather than the former, under the rule of saddam. my feelings for iraq and iraqis matter little in the grand scheme of things and my feelings are exactly what i stated earlier. i have no personal interest in iraq, just as i have no personal interest in any nation of the middle east. sink or swim, i'm still going to sleep well at night, go to work during the day, be a father and a husband, blah-blah-blah. do you have a personal interest in "anonymous iraqis", other than the fact their lives shouldn't be weighed against "anonymous american soldiers"?

i'm an american. i look at americans before i look at citizens of any other country because it behooves me to do so as a member of american society. there's no other nation out there that will step up to the plate of america's interests if america should fall into a crisis situation, unless it will benefit them somehow.

and finally - it would be a wonderful world if people weren't killed in war, but people are. tossing our people into a situation when they don't need to be there just exacerbates the problem and the tragedy.
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Old 02-01-2005, 04:25 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlKilyu
INSURGENTS CLAIM CAPTURE OF U.S. SOLDIER!

my first thought when i saw this pic is - shit, that guy looks like he's made out of rubber. then, i saw the pic of the toy.

grasping-at-straws is what comes to mind. well, that and pathetic. oh - and desperate terrorists, right sternn? know what i mean?

"Jean McConville, a loving and kind mother who gave a dying boy a hand to hold in death. This kind defenceless woman herself was later kidnapped through the orders of Gerry Adams, tortured, robbed, mutilated, murdered and buried like a wild animal. The atrocity is only surpassed by Captain Robert Nareed's murder, he was captured by Sinn Fein/IRA, and we can only imagine his tormenting tortures whose body has never been found"
- scots-irish website.

you know? desperation? kidnapping, torturing and mutilating? desperate terrorists? yeah, you know what i mean.
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Old 02-01-2005, 04:35 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by edible_eye
my first thought when i saw this pic is - shit, that guy looks like he's made out of rubber. then, i saw the pic of the toy.

grasping-at-straws is what comes to mind. well, that and pathetic.
Hee. I thought wow, that sort of looks like a doll.

As for the honor/compassion thing, I think we're misunderstanding each other, and I don't really want to get into it again, although I will answer this "do you have a personal interest in "anonymous iraqis"?" with a yes. It's the bleeding heart in me that I can't get rid of.
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Old 02-01-2005, 04:40 PM   #188
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i have a feeling our opinions coincide more than they oppose, although yours may ultimately prove more universally open than my own. the only curiosity i have is whether or not your bleeding heart extends to the fallen americans as well?

i'm guessing your answer is "yes", but you've only pointed out the iraqis as being prime in their importance.
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Old 02-01-2005, 05:19 PM   #189
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It does, and I've never tried to say that Iraqis were more important than Americans.
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Old 02-01-2005, 06:29 PM   #190
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fair enough. thanx for the chat, granny.
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Old 02-01-2005, 06:41 PM   #191
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Anytime!
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Old 02-09-2005, 09:15 PM   #192
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I found it rather interesting that Saudi Arabia is going to be holding municipal elections today in Riyadh. A nice little quirk of the Iraqi elections is that we may start seeing quite a bit of this type of reform being slowly introduced into the Middle East.
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Old 02-10-2005, 01:10 AM   #193
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If Hussein -- a man who is known to have given enormous amounts of money to the families of Palestinians who blew up Israelis -- associated with or gave a penny to al-Qaeda, then 9/11 becomes his work in part.
Then the US is just as culpable. How many members of the Taliban and Al Queda have been taught how to fly, here in the US, by our own government? How long was Bin Laden on the payroll of the CIA? How long did we support Saddam? They were our best buddies....as long as we needed them to fight against Iran.

Remember, there's no such thing as an "innocent" on either side of a dispute. And no one...not even Hitler, who is, arguably, the most evil man ever to live on the face of this earth in the 20th Century...ever thought of himself as evil. And that's what's so frightening. When you have someone who is absolutely convinced of the "rightness" of what he does, nothing...absolutely NOTHING will convince him otherwise. That goes for US politicians in power, as well as terrorists. And frankly, this whole mess is such a nasty gordian knot, that has guilty parties on so many sides, and fingers in so many pies, and tangled limbs, and heaving breasts, and thrusting asses, I doubt we'll ever get it untied.

<Sidebar>
And just how the fuck can we misplace an unusually tall Arab in constant need of dialasys...especially when we knew every move he made -before- 9/11?
</Sidebar>

Anyhow:

However, there are some....dubious....advantages to invading Iraq under the misguided title of "The War on Terrorism". While Iraq and Saddam are no more directly involved in the AlQueda than we are, one thing did come about. See, terrorists, by their very nature, are a slippery lot. In order to fight a war on such people (people without a country), you have to know where to look.

Or, in the case of the current administration, attack and invade a country with (thin) ties to the terrorists...and by doing so, lure all these terrorists to one spot. Brilliant plan. In theory.

There's just one problem with this method. Terrorists are like roaches. You see one, you know you have a gazillion hiding in the walls. And in killing off those that you see, those you miss are replacing them at record rates.

<Sidebar> (Yes another one. It's a stream-of-conciousness thing)
Do I think we should have gone there? Not really. But we're there now, and we will have to remain for the duration. Whether the job we went to do was right, or wrong, we have to see it through to the end, now. I think, with the exception of a small minority, our soldiers have comported themselves with honor, and I salute them, even if I do not agree with what the CIC sent them to do. They swore to defend our country from all enemies, foreign and domestic. They aren't given a say in who the "enemy" is, though.
</Sidebar>

The actual solution, IMNSHO, is to trace this back to the source. Terrorism is the act of desperate people. The question is...WHY are they so desperate? What brought them to this point? What did we do, to make them hate us so much? And why did we do it? I don't think the simple answer is oil. I don't think there -IS- any simple answer. We get more oil from Brazil, than we do the ME, why aren't we interfering in their politics like this? Yet, we have a very long history of interference with the ME. I would like to know why. The REAL reason why.

Was it something we said? Was it something -they- said? Did we neglect to send them a Christmas card one year? Did they get offended because we -did- send them a Christmas card?

I'm no apologist for the terrorists. I think what they did was beyond reprehensible. But something happened to piss off the ME at us, and it did nothing but escalate.

This is not going to be resolved with guns, and bombs. It's only going to get resolved when someone says, "No more!" throws down their weapon, and decides to talk.

See, this is what I'd lay good money on (if I were a bettin' gal), that it started by something reletively minor, in the grand scheme of things, and it just escalated. And lets face it, people...all people, are pretty bad when it comes to diplomacy. We go to Europe, and act like it should be just like the US. The Japanese come here, and act like it should be just like Japan. The Christians don't understand the Muslims, the Russians don't understand the Americans, the conservatives don't understand the liberals, and nobody understands the Goths (sorry, couldn't resist. You can kill me later). Why? Because as human beings we are an incredibly arrogant bunch of assholes (not all of us, but enough to make it tough on the rest, and I'll get to that in a minute...just let me finish my rant), and we think the other guy is a farping mind reader.

I love my country. I love the fact that I have the freedom to question my government, and to take them to task when they misstep.

What I do not love, is the American (government's) attitude that we have the duty and obligation to bring our beliefs and our government to every other country, and if they do not conform to what we want, we invade. America's (government) also has a nasty habit of choosing the worst possible bedfellows, too. We will support a despot, and turn a blind eye to the human rights violations that are happening all over the place...as long as they give us what we want. If they stop, or they are no longer useful, we turn on them like a rabid dog.

Yes, there is no denying that the US is a very powerful nation. But great power brings great responsibility (to quote Spiderman). We do not have the right to weild our power like a bludgeon on other countries. That makes us no more than the schoolyard bully.

That, in my opinion, is shameful.

We, as a nation are capable of so much greatness. Look at how we ralley around when disaster strikes. Look at the work we do (when we are allowed) in humanitarian efforts. Look at how the average Joe is out in the trenches helping the disadvantaged on our streets.

And see, that's the thing...it's we...the "Average Joe, or Jane" that are doing the great things. Not our politicians. They're too busy playing...well, politics.

Personally, I think we need to give the government -back- to the people, for the people, and get rid of the politicians (and no, I'm not talking Anarchy).

In my irrascable, verbose, and not so humble opinion (and with that, and about $1.25, you can get a cup of coffee at the local IHOP). And with this lovely post, I just revealed myself to be a tree-hugging-whale-saving-patchoulli-wearing-peacenik-baby-killing-bleeding-heart Liberal.

But you'll all come to love me!

PS--
I was writing this as I read the thread, but the quote at the start was something I had to respond to, and I just went on, and on, and on......

On another note...I am elated that Iraq was able to hold an election. But I'm going to take a "wait and see" stance, for now. After all, Freedom is not something handed to you on a silver platter. That, my friends, is the fastest way to lose it. Freedom is something you have to want deep in your very soul, and fight for it. And once you have it, you cannot neglect it.
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Old 02-10-2005, 06:09 AM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drgnlvr
The actual solution, IMNSHO, is to trace this back to the source. Terrorism is the act of desperate people. The question is...WHY are they so desperate? What brought them to this point? What did we do, to make them hate us so much? And why did we do it? I don't think the simple answer is oil. I don't think there -IS- any simple answer. We get more oil from Brazil, than we do the ME, why aren't we interfering in their politics like this? Yet, we have a very long history of interference with the ME. I would like to know why. The REAL reason why.
i don't agree.

why is it so important to understand why someone hates america? so we, as a nation, can change? pish-posh. by entertaining such an idea, you've already cast the verdict of "guilty" across the landscape of this beautiful nation.

WHY someone hates us isn't important. what's important is how we handle that hatred and the steps we take to neutralize pending threats as a result of it. terrorism is not only an act of desperation - it's also a by-product of fanatacism, a means to effect one's desire to rise to power. it's also akin to the mindset of a bully, when one believes him or herself to be king shit of the playground. is it important to understand the reasons behind someone's fanatacism, desire for power or why someone behaves as a bully? not really. there are people who might like to study such behavior, but on the whole, understanding WHY isn't all that important. dealing with the threat is important.

the middle east harbors hatred toward the u.s. the middle east has the means and the motive to do harm unto us. what is brazil to us, really? a place where some of our populace are able to enjoy warm vacations and a place where we are able to get decent drugs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by drgnlvr
This is not going to be resolved with guns, and bombs. It's only going to get resolved when someone says, "No more!" throws down their weapon, and decides to talk.
guns and bombs don't solve issues, i agree. guns and bombs get a point across. talk is cheap when the two involved have absolutely different mindsets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drgnlvr
See, this is what I'd lay good money on (if I were a bettin' gal), that it started by something reletively minor, in the grand scheme of things, and it just escalated. And lets face it, people...all people, are pretty bad when it comes to diplomacy. We go to Europe, and act like it should be just like the US. The Japanese come here, and act like it should be just like Japan. The Christians don't understand the Muslims, the Russians don't understand the Americans, the conservatives don't understand the liberals, and nobody understands the Goths (sorry, couldn't resist. You can kill me later). Why? Because as human beings we are an incredibly arrogant bunch of assholes (not all of us, but enough to make it tough on the rest, and I'll get to that in a minute...just let me finish my rant), and we think the other guy is a farping mind reader.
i don't believe "it started" over something minor. i don't agree that this hatred could be defined as something that "started" at all. i don't believe in an argument based on an implied theory concerning a past between america and the middle east as two nations who existed in harmony at one time. sometimes, two separate nations are two separate nations. it's not a matter of two americas or two middle easts that suddenly had a falling out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drgnlvr
What I do not love, is the American (government's) attitude that we have the duty and obligation to bring our beliefs and our government to every other country, and if they do not conform to what we want, we invade.
what countries have we "invaded" due to their "not conforming to what we want"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drgnlvr
America's (government) also has a nasty habit of choosing the worst possible bedfellows, too. We will support a despot, and turn a blind eye to the human rights violations that are happening all over the place...as long as they give us what we want. If they stop, or they are no longer useful, we turn on them like a rabid dog.
countries the world over gravitate toward other countries that serve their best interests. this is a planet of selective leeching - not pretty, global communities - no matter how badly some would like to believe in the global community theory. people just don't care about others, when it begins to affect life too close to home - and with good reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drgnlvr
In my irrascable, verbose, and not so humble opinion (and with that, and about $1.25, you can get a cup of coffee at the local IHOP). And with this lovely post, I just revealed myself to be a tree-hugging-whale-saving-patchoulli-wearing-peacenik-baby-killing-bleeding-heart Liberal.
heh. you've got plenty of company here. not me, necessarily, but welcome nonetheless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drgnlvr
Freedom is not something handed to you on a silver platter. That, my friends, is the fastest way to lose it. Freedom is something you have to want deep in your very soul, and fight for it. And once you have it, you cannot neglect it.
this, i agree with. forcing "freedom" in iraq or anywhere else is an inherently failed policy. just like setting up welfare for "those who need it". for the three or four who garner an actual benefit, there are twenty or thirty who figure out how to abuse it. when one does not work for what they can rightfully claim to be their own, ownership becomes a hollow word.
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Old 02-10-2005, 06:21 AM   #195
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How many members of the Taliban and Al Queda have been taught how to fly, here in the US, by our own government?
None. The Saudi nationals that were involved in the attacks actually were aspiring to become pilots in Saudi Arabia at the time they were here in the U.S. learning to fly airplanes. It's required by that country that those training to be pilots aquire an FAA license here in the states first. At the time the few were getting their license, they weren't a part of al-Qaeda, nor had they yet met Bin Laden or his organization. It would be due to the fact that some of these people couldn't get work that would lead them to Afghanistan to train for what they thought would be a Jihad in Chechnya. Most members were unaware of the 9/11 plot until the morning of.

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How long was Bin Laden on the payroll of the CIA? How long did we support Saddam? They were our best buddies....as long as we needed them to fight against Iran.
Bin Laden wasn't on the payroll. Him, nor his group, ever recieved training or arms from the Pakistani ISI as part of the Afghan-Soviet war effort. al-Qaeda was set up as an independant, self sufficient organisation at the time in the late 80s.

Quote:
<Sidebar>
And just how the fuck can we misplace an unusually tall Arab in constant need of dialasys...especially when we knew every move he made -before- 9/11?
</Sidebar>
He wasn't actually trying to hide himself to the same extent he is now before we entered Afghanistan. Remember how long it took us to "find" Kaczynski? He was on our own soil.

Quote:
The actual solution, IMNSHO, is to trace this back to the source. Terrorism is the act of desperate people. The question is...WHY are they so desperate? What brought them to this point? What did we do, to make them hate us so much? And why did we do it? ... I would like to know why. The REAL reason why.
This goes back to the early 90s, durring the Gulf War when the U.S. set up military bases in Saudi Arabia to fight Saddam. If you know much about that country, it follows the very strict interpretation of Islamic law, which forbids infidels from settling in, of all places, the muslim holy land. This is why Saudi Arabia is not open to tourism and why you need special permission to enter that country. U.S. set up camp there and Bin Laden, nor others, liked that idea very much and openly spoke out against it. After he began to do something about it, he was expelled from the Kingdom, which is also al-Qaeda's other big target.

He's been attacking the U.S. all over the world for the last decade as part of this tirade, and just recently started focusing his sights on Saudi Arabia. This is why he went to such great lengths to recruit and decieve Saudi nationals for the 9/11 attacks. He could have chosen anyone, but he mostly went after Saudis in an attempt to disrupt, and hopefully end, U.S.-Saudi relations in these attacks.

Quote:
What I do not love, is the American (government's) attitude that we have the duty and obligation to bring our beliefs and our government to every other country, and if they do not conform to what we want, we invade.
Replace "invade" with "sanction." Otherwise we'd have invaded Iran, Syria, North Korea, and other lovely nations by now. Saddam didn't conform to us after the Gulf War, so we sanctioned his nation. Iran, non-conformists, are currently under U.S. sanctions. North Korea's economy is barely hanging on by a thread. They're also heavily sanctioned.

Quote:
And see, that's the thing...it's we...the "Average Joe, or Jane" that are doing the great things. Not our politicians. They're too busy playing...well, politics.
And donating money and aid to disaster victims.

Quote:
Personally, I think we need to give the government -back- to the people, for the people, and get rid of the politicians (and no, I'm not talking Anarchy).
Here's the thing though... when was it ever in the hands of the people? This is, and always has been, the American way.
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Old 02-10-2005, 08:03 AM   #196
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Old 02-10-2005, 08:34 AM   #197
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hey, al -

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Old 02-10-2005, 02:12 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by AlKilyu


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Does this mean I'm officially a member of the "pWn3d by Al" club?
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Old 02-10-2005, 03:19 PM   #199
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noooo...no I am mostly lazy and rather than point out all the parts of binkie's post that I liked and say "amen" I just give her an oWn3d, that one being a lame one I made last week...


Al does not pwn. I am a lover and gentle. I have pleasent tangents to observe and stuff.
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Old 02-10-2005, 10:33 PM   #200
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Al does not pwn. I am a lover and gentle. I have pleasent tangents to observe and stuff.


*drgn drowns in a sea of irony* :lol:
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