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Old 02-03-2007, 06:52 PM   #1
Godslayer Jillian
 
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If this is Goth, then I hate Goth.

I just hate, more than anything, the latin version of Goth. They believe they are the best artists in the world and that only suffering is art. They're worse than 'emos'
This girl wanted me to join her community, and we had an interesting conversation. Notice the change in tone as I started disagreeing with her.
Drucila (what an original name)- *insert internet link*
Drucila- Wanna join? I just opened it hehehe
Jillian- Nah, I already spend too much time on gothic.net
Jillian- Though I like the accuracy in the music section (of course I had not read it all, and then..)
Jillian- Woah!
Jillian- What the devils is HIM doing there?
Jillian- HIM is not gothic.
Drucila- Of course it is, it's a type of goth.
Jillian- HIM is as gothic as Evanescence and Marilyn Manson are.
Drucila- No.
Drucila- Marilyn no.
Drucila- Or Eva
Jillian- Exactly
Jillian- One more thing
Jillian- How can HIM be 'romantic goth' (the classification she gave him) when he always talks about Love as a cruel thing?
Jillian- 'Love's the funeral of hearts', 'Love is a gun separating me from you', '"Kill me" I cried and love said no' (my usual argument against HIM)
Drucila- Isn't it true that love is cruel?
Jillian- No
Jillian- And it's stupid to call yourself romantic when you believe so.
*moment of silence*
Jillian- Too straightforward for your taste?
Drucila- Naaa
Drucila- You don't even know what I mean
Jillian- You asked if love was cruel
Drucila- I didn't ask
Drucila- I affirmed
Drucila- In question form
Jillian- Big fucking deal, you made a rhetoric
Jillian- In any case that question is the anti-thesis of Romance
Jillian- If you believe someone can be romantic and believe love is cruel, you're ignoring the meaning of Romance
Drucila- Being cruel in factors of condoning the feelings isolated from love. Isn't that what love is? (how the fuck does that make sense?)
Drucila- Besides it's clear that you don't understand at all the significance that we give to lugubrious feelings
That's what pisses me off. They seem to have monopolized the whole feelings thing and painted in in black. Those maggots.
Drucila- in poetry
Drucila- or in lyrics
Jillian- 'significances' devoid of artistic value
Drucila- That depends on who doesn't understand (wtf?)
Drucila- and how you look at it
Jillian- You self-appointed 'goths' would shame the writers you so idolize like John Keats and Edgar Allan Poe.
Jillian- and no, it doesn't depend on 'how I look at it'
Jillian- what's with the obsession with existentialism among you when you cannot even define it?
Drucila- Hahaha, good shit of yours.
Jillian- Am I wrong?
Jillian- Define existentialism.
Drucila- Looking for something that justifies your existence?
Jillian- Wrong; big misconception.
Drucila- Your humor wouldn't justify your absurd pedantry. (oh someone's using long words. She's just missing coherence)
Jillian- And what does that have to do with our conversation.
Drucila- A lot.
Drucila- If you were paying attention. (oh noes, Batman; it seems she cornered us!)
Jillian- When was I humorous?
Drucila- Hahaha.
Drucila- Fine, I'll believe you
Drucila- But not even in your..
Drucila- Forget
Drucila- Thanks for your time
Drucila- I won't give away my concept to someone that tries to pause everything to his own favor (and once more, wtf?)
Drucila- Like egolatry
Jillian- I don't 'pause everything to my own favor', I just follow everything by its rational meaning
Drucila- Not everything is rational unless you're perfect
Drucila- You said perfection didn't exist
Jillian- What the hell are you talking about? Everything is rational.
Drucila- Of course, but not in someone's absolute (is anyone following her?)
Drucila- if you accept it you'd be contradicting yourself
Jillian- How am I contradicting myself?
Jillian- Something rational is not the same as something perfect
Drucila- Fine, take it as you wish.
Jillian- Oh no, you're the one that 'takes it as you wish' with your attempt of an existentialist ideology.
Jillian- I 'take it' as it is, knowing that things are objective, just like absolutes
Drucila- To you are absolutes perfect?
Jillian- Gravity is an absolute; strong and weak nuclear force are abolutes; Love is an absolute; electromagnetism is an absolute.
Drucila- And love is not perfection?
Jillian- None of these are perfect.
Jillian- There are only perfect ideals, not perfect material entities.
Jillian- Gravity would be perfect if its effects were instantaneous.
Jillian- And yet that's impossible.
Jillian- You could increase the mass of the objects and decrease the distance between them to make it look almost instantaneous
Jillian- But it still won't be instantaneous.
Drucila- How dare you contradict me of saying that Love isn't cruel according to you when you don't even feel its perfection?
Jillian- How the fuck can Love be both perfect and cruel?
Jillian- That has no philosophical validity.
Jillian- It's just something you ripped out of a HIM song.

*and scene*
She got mad and left.
That conversation is long and pointless, but entertaining. The point of this thread is shorter:
I hate what people have made out of Goth.
This time I'm not talking about the ones that think Slipknot and Hot Topic are goth.
I'm talking about the other side of the coin.
The people that think that goth equates with art and believe that their gothiness was a Gods-given-gift that makes them beings better than the regular person.
Goth should stay as a musical style and that's it. At the most influencing fashion style.
In literature it should be a fucking adjective, not the 'essence of gothy writing that pours like ink from your soul to the paper'

If you want to write poetry, be a fuckin' poet! There's nothing poetical about being goth.
Some artists can call themselves goth. Being goth doesn't give you a free pass to be considered an artist.
A>B doesn't equal B>A
I hate those moronic beings that call themselves artists.
What's so fucking artistic about writing about vampires and death?
If someone believes being goth gives you superpowers to know the meaning of life and instantaneously transforms your writings from shit to 'tortured poetry' I'm going to shoot you.
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Old 02-03-2007, 07:01 PM   #2
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I don't think I understood any of that conversation.
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Old 02-03-2007, 07:14 PM   #3
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Why do people think that forming incoherent sentences with big words make them eloquent?

The sentences need to make sense, too, people!
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Old 02-03-2007, 07:53 PM   #4
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music = music
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Old 02-03-2007, 08:45 PM   #5
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I understand very much Jillian. There is a girl in my school, who is the same way. She adores My Chemical Romance, HIM, and Evanescence, and also takes their "Poetic Goth" rhythms as a mental state, rather than the real music taste (ex. real Goth music). It may be annoying at times, thinking that vampires and reading Anne Rice pushes them to the highest Goth status.

She also has a set of friends who are the like. Speaking in "Elizabethan English" and an obsession of aliens (one who is "afraid of human beings"), is what they mostly are. I had once brought to school a Gothic Beauty magazine, having left aside when leaving the classroom one period. When I came back, my magazine was not on my desk, but in their hands, trying to copy down all the web addresses they publicize.

Point blank: their poetry is all more than a tad depressing, nothing like the "Mansonites", but believe they have a tortured soul that has to be sung operaticly. I would also hate Goth if it were like your conversation.

--Neurosis
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Old 02-03-2007, 08:48 PM   #6
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I like MCR and Evanesence and Manson, but... I don't thrive on an over melodramatic lifestyle. I just like the music and it appears to offend the people around here. And what everyone considers "goth" music I really don't like and I've never heard of the people mentioned. But I don't think that makes me less of who I am.
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Old 02-03-2007, 08:51 PM   #7
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::pain::

That conversation actually gave me, of all the things on earth, a backache.
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Old 02-03-2007, 09:31 PM   #8
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And she will never know she is wrong.
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Old 02-03-2007, 09:32 PM   #9
Godslayer Jillian
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tainteddogma0
music = music
Not at all. There is a world of difference between Tchaikovsky and Mozart. Let alone, say, Specimen and a tribal rhythm.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 02-03-2007, 09:41 PM   #10
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Well, I'm leaving these forums filled with rude, close-minded people. You may continue to listen to outdated music and I'll continue to listen to non-goth bands and enjoy my life without the judging eye of those who see fit.
I have come to the conclusion that if any band has became popular enough to be liked by millions of people then it can in no way be a gothic band. Only gothic bands have a minute fanbase alongside, and I'm sorry I didn't take the time to dig through the 80s section at the CD store to find a poorly crafted array of music.

GOODBYE FOREVER AND FLAME ALL YOU WANT
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Old 02-03-2007, 09:53 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tainteddogma0
I have come to the conclusion that if any band has became popular enough to be liked by millions of people then it can in no way be a gothic band. Only gothic bands have a minute fanbase alongside, and I'm sorry I didn't take the time to dig through the 80s section at the CD store to find a poorly crafted array of music.
Concluding sarcasm aside, that is basically the case. If a recent role count of goths has been made I've missed it, but I'm not sure we number significant millions. Psst, you're allowed to like anything you'd like.

Only you're gone now, so never mind.
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Old 02-03-2007, 09:56 PM   #12
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Still here, can't figure out how to delete account if that is possible. I'm aware I can like what I please. But it just makes you feel crappy when you come into a new place, hoping to get accepted for being yourself, but only to find that you get shot down for being yourself and having people try to change you. I only need help with my hair, in the Hair thread.
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Old 02-03-2007, 11:05 PM   #13
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I have always had this thought:

The "Real" Goths are yelling at the "Real" Goths for acting not "Really" Gothic, because their definition of Goth is the "Real" one.

No one owns "Goth TM". So, saying "That isn't Goth", or "That is Goth", is just looking for a fight.

Seriously, it is. It is just a provocation.

See. We can even see it in the conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
Jillian- Woah!
Jillian- What the devils is HIM doing there?
Jillian- HIM is not gothic.
See, that starts the debate, right there. "HIM is not "Gothic"." Yet, we could look at a source like Wikipedia, which says that HIM has Gothic Rock and Gothic Metal influences. So, what's right? Technically, they could say that they're right, if they say some of their songs fit into the category, if you go by Wikipedia.

It's all on someone's opinion. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong here. I'm simply saying, you could argue the little details, for hours and hours. "It shouldn't be a genre of literature." "It should be a genre of literature." "Hot Topic does cater to the Goth community." "Hot Topic doesn't cater to the Goth community."

Is this going to change anyone's opinion? Are the "Mall Goths" going to stop calling themselves "Goths"? Are they going to point out that you're calling them "Goths"? Can you find an actual fallacy in an "Emo's" beliefs?
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Old 02-04-2007, 01:27 AM   #14
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That was just...painful to read.

You know the best way to smoke out a false intellectual in a conversation is to watch them get tangled up in rhetoric until they contradict themselves. Much like the way a dog chained to a tree runs around it till it runs out of leash.
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Old 02-04-2007, 03:33 AM   #15
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Good vocabulary skills doesn't prove high intellect; anyone can pick up a thesaurus.
In my opinion, a true genius always wears a veil....those who persist on flaunting their genius in order to seem superior are the ones who lack.

The goth subculture has been around for over 20 years. The point is, things do and ARE going to change. If we spent everyday digging in the past, we would never advance. As for myself, I do consider HIM "gothic." They do portray the major aspects of gothic ideologies, but they've also included their own impressions.
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Old 02-04-2007, 03:42 AM   #16
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You were clearly the wiser in the discussion, but to her credit, it is completely possible for something to be cruel and perfect.

It's called a monotheistic God.
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Old 02-04-2007, 04:52 AM   #17
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"Goth" can be quite pretentious can't it.
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Old 02-04-2007, 06:43 AM   #18
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Ah, but GirlsNotMe, you're just proving his point! There can be no such thing as the omnipotent, omnipresent monotheistic god that they worship so much.

Others got it wrong with Auroborus, too. The supposed perfect being created at the beginning of the universe.
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Old 02-04-2007, 10:21 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 655322
"Goth" can be quite pretentious can't it.

I did find ithem synonymous as I looked through the Thesaurus of Faux Intellect and Language Skills.

Big words, little context.
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Old 02-04-2007, 12:05 PM   #20
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More than half the people on this board have something in common with this Drucila character. As is evidenced by the plentiful and extremely meaningful (sarcasm) conversations on "What is and is not Goth", "I"m Gothier than thou", "HIM is not goth" and so on. Enough said.
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Old 02-04-2007, 01:22 PM   #21
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I hate arguing with people who have no idea what they are talking about, yet still persist that they are correct.

And that conversation made absolutly no sense at all. She must have been on drugs or on large quantities of absinthe if she thought that one could make any sense of that conversation.

HIM is a terrible band >.<
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Old 02-04-2007, 01:31 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tainteddogma0
I have come to the conclusion that if any band has became popular enough to be liked by millions of people then it can in no way be a gothic band.
This is already late, but I'll still say it for the sake of posterity:
Ahem:
The Cure!
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I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 02-04-2007, 03:30 PM   #23
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This is all very Christian, in the sense that the "Goth or Not" pissing contest sounds a whole lot like the Catholic vs. Protestant pissing contest.

"I'm goth because I listen to Evanescence!" "No you're not! I'm goth because I DON'T listen to Evanescence!"

"I'm -------- because I ----------!" "No you're not! I'm --------- because I DON'T -----------!"

"I'm a true Christian because I believe in transubstantiation of the Host!" "No you're not! I'm a true Christian because I DON'T believe in transubstantiation of the Host!"

See what I mean? In Pace Recquiscat.
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Old 02-04-2007, 03:54 PM   #24
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Ah how my face stings and sings of how sore it has become after such an impact on the very thing it was focused on to bring it to greater hights. How such effort and such hope at being soo close to the pinnicle that we soo strived to reach yet ending up falling in such a terribly dangerous fashon.

There is an example of how you can take anything and pull out the big goth stamp. What I was just describing was how I was helping my uncle move a desk onto a truck and how I fell smacking my cheek on the top of the desk as I fell. Fortunatly we had it high enough on the ramp we were carrying it that it fell a short distance recieving no damage. But the bad news is my cheek is still very sore.

Anyone care to comment on the quality of that piece of writing.
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Old 02-04-2007, 04:36 PM   #25
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I think in our mutual analysis we are missing the original point of Godslayer's first post:
It is "the costume without the brain" that he was whining about more than the music:

He probed the girl's understanding of the philosophies she had verbalized, and found her wanting for understanding of their true meaning. She didn't know what she was talking about. It would be like if I tried to talk about different sewing machine techniques and parts, of which I have no clue whatsoever (except for "bobbin" (sp?) I have heard of and seen an actual bobbin, but still don't know what it is for...anyway, I digress).

Go Colts! (current score: Colts: 16 Bears 14 Sorry Black Butterfly! )
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