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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 02-25-2006, 11:40 PM   #51
ThwanCondu
 
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First of all, I don't care how old you are, kid.

It's interesting that you're not arguing that with any of the omnivorous posters on this thread who have been far worse than I have. And that you're still ignoring that Satarea wasn't actually doing anything but taking the piss until she corrected me on her gender. Since when do people hate arseholes on this site? Everyone here is pretentious.

I know I didn't call her cute until she corrected me. But that still doesn't mean I'm sexist. It just means your instant reaction is that I must be sexist. Argue your point all you wish, but there's still no solid evidence that I am a sexist human being.

I apologised before because I didn't want it becoming like it did this time, and I didn't want to bother going into my association excuse. This time I don't think I need to apologise. I'd like to get on with the discussion (you might have noticed that I was actually dishing out valid arguments), but if you guys feel it's far more appropriate to get sidetracked on the issue of someone on this site being pretentious, then you just go ahead and do that.
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Old 02-25-2006, 11:48 PM   #52
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I give up. You guys are so full of yourself you can't have a proper discussion about anything. Or wait, do I need to pull up all the examples of me being reasonable about everything here? Or do we have to all compare the times we've been douche bags on this site and see who is more deserving of having a reason-based opinion? Yeah, yeah, let's do that!
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Old 02-25-2006, 11:55 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThwanCondu

You guys are so full of yourself you can't have a proper discussion about anything.
*Yawn*

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Originally Posted by ThwanCondu

Or wait, do I need to pull up all the examples of me being reasonable about everything here?

Or do we have to all compare the times we've been douche bags on this site and see who is more deserving of having a reason-based opinion?

Yeah, yeah, let's do that!
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Originally Posted by ThwanCondu
By George, you're right. Let's follow our instincts! Everyone who wants to R A P E people, do so, despite the suffering it causes!

Anyone who feels like flinging their poo (like some monkeys), do so! Everyone who wants to kill the children of their new wife, do so (this is something seen in the wild with non-human animals, and is a logical method of making one's own seed the dominant one)!

Thank you for changing my life.

P.S. Homo sapiens are better suited to be herbivores, and that is a fact. Are you really that much more like a shark than the herbivorous Gorilla? Don't flatter yourself.
You're right, we're the one's that cannot have a proper discussion.
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Old 02-26-2006, 05:45 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by TStone
And that explains China…how? I would argue the direct opposite of your opinion. You see greater child-birth in the poor and more restraint in the affluent. Mostly due to low education and rampant ignorance, and partly due to the fact that the poor have very few recreational escapisms.

The admission ticket to fucking, however, is one all classes can afford. This may also explain why there are more poor people than any other class. Just a thought.
Ha! Do you even know where over-population is an issue in China? It's not in the cities, that's for certain. It's also not where people tend towards great affluence. They are over-populated in the poorer regions. How doesn't it explain China?
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Old 02-26-2006, 05:50 AM   #55
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So let me simplify what I said before you got a hold of my words and adlibbed a bunch of fucking stupid shit. Natural Instinct is survival. R ape, smelling of your poo, sucking your own dick all have nothing to do with surviving, whereas the eating of furry creatures has everything to do with it.
That really depends on whether you believe humans always had the capacity to consent, and on top of that, whether or not you believe that survival is contingent on the survival of the individual as opposed to the species.

So I don't know how accurate that one assertion is. That is generally how most species of animal procreate, after all. So why the assumption that there was never a time where it was the same for humans? Doesn't seem so other-worldly to me.
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Old 02-26-2006, 05:51 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Santarea
Wow.

So... I am educated agnostic who can argue the validity of a rather important book, and I am pretentious? What threw you- the big words or the accurate sources? And even that, how is being defensive of the bible a negative thing? I'm not a conversionist, you dolt.
The importance of the bible is rather subjective. It is important relative to, say, a christian-based society, but the book itself? Not much importance there.
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Old 02-26-2006, 06:02 AM   #57
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As far as the actual process of eating meat and meat industry byproducts is concerned, I don't care. Kill all of the animals you want, eat your own weight in ground beef.

All I support is better treatment of the animals before they are sent off to the slaughter houses. I don't give a shit if people are eating meat, and I'd never bother attempting to convert anyone to my views unless they actually wanted to (or unless I had concrete evidence to support that A (being whatever I am doing) is healthier than B (being whatever they are doing)). As far as I stand, A is roughly equivalent to B and both have their shortcomings. Anyone who tries to argue this point might as well try sharpening pencils with their arse holes because they will have better luck with that than this.

My only position is that if we're going to be eat them, we might as well treat them (relatively) well, rather than shoving them into confined spaces and pumping them full of antibiotics to stave off the spread of disease. There's a reason why they all tend to get sick when confined to spaces with so many of their own species; it's because it's unnatural.

So say what you will about how much you love meat; I don't give two shits what you do. What concerns me is the fact that such cruelty can be commited without most people blinking an eye. That's bound to be akin to some brand of societal sociopathy. If it's a common practise, it's an accepted one? If that's the case, that doesn't make it right.
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Old 02-26-2006, 07:39 AM   #58
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As far as the actual process of eating meat and meat industry byproducts is concerned, I don't care. Kill all of the animals you want, eat your own weight in ground beef.
funny you should mention that. i ate so much peppercorn steak, with a side of teriyaki steak last night - i spent an hour and a half trying not to puke.

it was awesome.
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Old 02-26-2006, 12:42 PM   #59
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First of all, breasts are cute.

Now that thats out of the way.

People complain about the treatment of animals, in america, in europe, and in other first world nations. In nations where people are happy to just HAVE food, it doesn't become an issue. Countries where the people there can't even give themselves the same luxuries groups like PETa want to bring to animals in first world countries.

It's a shame to see so many people out there fighting for the rights of animals in over-privelgedged countries while in other countries the animals live even worse, but so do the people, so no one cares about 'those' cows, or chickens, or goats, etc.
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Old 02-26-2006, 01:22 PM   #60
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First of all, breasts are cute.

Now that thats out of the way.

People complain about the treatment of animals, in america, in europe, and in other first world nations. In nations where people are happy to just HAVE food, it doesn't become an issue. Countries where the people there can't even give themselves the same luxuries groups like PETa want to bring to animals in first world countries.

It's a shame to see so many people out there fighting for the rights of animals in over-privelgedged countries while in other countries the animals live even worse, but so do the people, so no one cares about 'those' cows, or chickens, or goats, etc.
Can you validate your claim that 'those' cows, chickens, and goats are worse off than those raised via factory farming? I think not.
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Old 02-26-2006, 01:24 PM   #61
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I never thought of that, but it is kinda true
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People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 02-26-2006, 01:45 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by TStone
For the most part I have no problem with the above statement, except as it pertains to that last bit, “What concerns me is the fact that such cruelty can be commited without most people blinking an eye. That's bound to be akin to some brand of societal sociopathy. If it's a common practise, it's an accepted one? If that's the case, that doesn't make it right..”

I can say this on that subject, killing for food, for survival, is still killing. It’s not a feeling anyone should relish, it’s not something you’d want to can and mass produce.

Rather ironic, since we do that very thing, but somehow we’ve been able to remove the taint of death by homogenizing our prey in handy little cellophane wrapped packages. We leave the killing for those best suited for it, and they’ve either become too desensitized or were too well suited for the work in the first place, so the suffering of the lowly creatures continues and ignorance is ever bliss.

You concern then would be correct, but I’ve never thought less of anyone not able to kill something and eat it, or even to not kill it and still eat it. So we’ll focus the concern on the quality of life the animals receive prior to consumption, and not the people who refuse to picture a face on their patty before the eating.

Because that would be asserting your morality over theirs and are any of us better than the other?
I'm sorry Tom, but I sadly fail to grasp what it is you are saying. I haven't a single concern with the act of killing. If at any point in time I suggested that I believed that killing animals is wrong, then I apologize for being at all ambiguous in my choice of words.

My statement was intended to be a remark involving the quality of life the animals receive prior to consumption, and the fact that people haven't a concern with that particular treatment. It's all fine and dandy to kill (hell, we've put down a few of our pets, and I'd never for the life of me suggest that it would have been better for them to live out their lives and die naturally) as long as the killing is done humanely. I'm not saying we should put on a show for them, put them to sleep so they can be lulled into the cold, unfeeling void I have perceived death to be. Rather, I am concerned with the level of brutality that occurs during their lifespans.

If I had my way, I'd have two men try to take down a bull with their bare hands; that would be a show to see, and they could probably up their revenue by selling seats to the slaughter house, a new Rome. But that's just me.

Instead, I'd like to see it that most cattle are alotted a, more or less, comfortable amount of land for grazing. Free range like it used to be. I'm not saying let's all get new cars with pleather seating. I'm not suggesting biodegradable shoes made from kelp. I'm not suggesting anything so extreme as to convert an entire culture to an entirely different diet that is a rather difficult balance to strike unless you are adamant about it. I'm bringing up that the treatment of the animals is appalling and whether people are aware of it or not, society allows it to occur regardless. That's where my comment is lodged, and perhaps you recognized that (thus my uncertainty regarding your reply). If the opposite was the case, and you believed I was suggesting tofu for all, and to all a good night, then I'm only a slight bit disappointed (though this wouldn't be the first time you mistook a comment of mine as an attempt to perpetuate a vegetarian agenda).
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Old 02-26-2006, 01:51 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Santarea
To paraphrase Gandhi- you can judge the moral character of a nation by how well it treats its animals. OK, no peoblem. I can see the logic in that.

But I have to throw in with Sternn, here. Where o' where can I get Tofurkey in the Sudan?

Here, in a first world nation (For thos in the US) we have the luxury of abundance and choice. Hell, I just saw an article about water tasting seminiars. WTF? We have enough so that you can choose spinach over pig. Lucky us.

In the third world nations, they don't get to be so picky. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can grow more grain per acre, yadda yadda. Learn the generals of farming, fallowing, and funding before you quote a pamphlet on that. The third world has their resources much like we have ours. You make do with what you have. If you don't live in a clime that supports corn--- well we can't all live in zones 3-7... The costs of transport of a more politically correct food (discounting lowerd farm wages by decreased subsidies) that is not necessary over a natural resource makes little sense.
We live in a primarily beef-based society. Beef is the least economic source of protein in existence. Did I mention any arguments against chicken or even pork? Did I throttle you with vegetarian propoganda plucked from the various webpages of the PETA website? No and no.

I would appreciate the same level of patience from you that I am giving to you right now, and while I understand your perspective, I don't think we've yet reached the point where minor comments of a condescending tone are necessary.

So far it seems that everyone's mistaken my perspective and is therefore approaching it with the state of mind that I feel it's important to convert each and every person I come into contact with over to a vegetarian diet. I find that about as redundant as the masses of people who try to convert me back to meat. If it's going to happen, it's going to be my decision, and I don't see much of a point to trying, if at all.
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Old 02-26-2006, 01:54 PM   #64
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there's left over steak in my fridge. i'm eating it when i get home.

- slurp -
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Old 02-26-2006, 01:56 PM   #65
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If it walks like a duck, squawks like a duck…it’s Peking Delight.

I can’t entertain the thought **** was ever, in any portion of our history, a survival tactic. In the whole wide world consent permeates into every phylum class and order that relies on sexual reproduction.
Without language, there is no certainty of consent. In the animal kingdom, **** occurs constantly as a means of survival of the species. I believe in evolution which means that I don't believe we were always necessarily able to consent. I'm not suggesting that the **** of today is equivalent to that of eons ago; rather, I was just making a point.
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Old 02-26-2006, 03:03 PM   #66
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I was referencing the whole as sociopathic, not the part. Whole. Part. Part. Whole. Not the same.
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Old 02-26-2006, 03:07 PM   #67
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At any rate, my argument stands as I laid it out; if I were to approach from a different perspective, it wouldn't be my own. I am highly cynical, and I've not really witnessed much of a willingness to change anything. Perhaps I will change the terms I used and rather than it being "sociopathy" as I boldly, perhaps too boldly, put it, it could be termed a societal "bystander effect."

Perhaps people would like to see it changed when it's brought to their attention, but don't see a point in doing something themselves. Regardless, I know I'm not making much sense and I'll just side-step this discussion until my thoughts are better sorted.
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Old 03-01-2006, 01:28 AM   #68
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Holy Crap.

Why does this subject get so heated?

When I was a vegan, I never tried to 'convert' anyone into vegetarianism, but as soon as anyone found out I was vegan the usual response was to tell me how dumb I was for not eating meat and to defend themselves against me throwing paint on them or tossing their steak on the floor.

I'm with Santarea on this one - eat what ever the hell you want to eat, and let others do the same.

I do believe that there is a lot we can do to fix the way factory farming works but I don't see the solution as being as condescending and belittling as possible to others who don't share the same viewpoint.

And as far as animal rights activism goes - I've always heard that argument. "Why fight for animals when there's children starving?"

But, there are so many good causes to be a part of. Each person just has to choose which causes are the most important to them for whatever reason. As long as you are trying to make a positive change I believe that is what is important. If the entire world only paid attention to the starving children (not my intention to undermine the plight of world hunger), then there would be no attention to the rest of many important causes.

It takes all kinds, and as long as someone is involved in making the world a better place I see that as an accomplishment in and of itself.
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Old 03-01-2006, 04:29 AM   #69
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Everything you need to know about animal rights and vegetarianism you can learn from watching the Simpsons.
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Old 03-01-2006, 05:34 AM   #70
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That's kind of like everything you need to know about Ireland!
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Old 03-01-2006, 05:38 AM   #71
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I never want to convert people to vegetarianism, and I will never change this point of view. I'm only saying that living in a society that supports factory farming is living with a trend that reflects poorly onto the society as a whole. That my opinion. Disagree with it if you will, but I think it very unnatural to isolate them, to genetically alter them pure for our consumption and then to proceed to give them antibiotics, which do impact that people consuming the meat. If someone disagrees with that, that's fine. This is mostly opinion which has been meshed with parts of fact.
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Old 03-01-2006, 06:48 AM   #72
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Thwan, say we got rid of all of that graze land and did replace it with crops. What then? Do you honestly think that would help anything?

Whose going to be giving away all those crops for free? That's not the way corporations work.

We'd still have the same problem, just more vegetables.

And what about the people that would be hollering about the mistreatment of those poor vegetables?
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Old 03-01-2006, 08:51 AM   #73
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Thwan, say we got rid of all of that graze land and did replace it with crops. What then? Do you honestly think that would help anything?

Whose going to be giving away all those crops for free? That's not the way corporations work.

We'd still have the same problem, just more vegetables.

And what about the people that would be hollering about the mistreatment of those poor vegetables?
Giving away the crops for free wouldn't help anything, anyway.
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Old 03-01-2006, 10:16 AM   #74
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That blog is what pisses me off about some meat eaters. They accuse us of being self righteous and yet can be far more pushy. Don't be enraged just because we feel guilty about eating animals.

Plus his font is horrible, has a childish tone and he didn't back up with any sources, and ignores the fact that if animals die accidently due to machinary, its still better than years in a factory farm.
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Old 03-01-2006, 10:36 AM   #75
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If you find meat eaters offensive, I'm sorry, I just didn't think of a better word. I just get riled up when people condescend others for having a different lifestyle, thats all. If there was a different tone, I wouldn't have minded at all what he was saying. I hate PETA for the same reason, you know? I agree with the cause, but I hate the delivery.
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