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Old 06-25-2013, 01:52 PM   #26
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Red face

Okay, I was going to respond to this - but I don't think, judging by your last post - I don't think you're interested in understanding where I'm coming from and I don't think that I can trust you to continue to argue in good faith about this.

I'll just address your last point, and then take Kontan's advice.

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Was that something you wanted to do? Do you think shamans, voodooists or even Muslims can get away with that?

Actually this is something I wanted to ask: is being able to confront people religion about any moment your idea of atheist freedom? Is not wanting to argue about religion at any time of your choosing oppressing you?
Good lord no. Why would I want to do that? That's exhausting.

Atheists already confront all religions at all times, simply by existing. There is literally no way I can't because there's no truce between positive belief and a lack of positive belief. You can't say: "maybe it's the same God under different names. You can't say "maybe it's all a piece of the truth". Disbelief and belief don't mix. Period. The only options we have is to make this confrontation known, or to shut up about it & hide.

You want to know what I want? I want it to not be important. I'd like to not have to hide who I am from my relatives, my employers and my fiancée's family.

Also, fuck you for accusing my friend and fellow activist of being disingenuous and engaging in a "cheap ploy to legalize a drug." you don't know anything about him, or his religion.
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:06 PM   #27
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But you argue that atheism/skepticism/logic etc should be held above all others, it should have the power.
No I don't; and for the record atheism /= skepticism /= logic.

I really find it troubling that you think in these terms. Privileged isn't something that a group has to have, it can be eliminated across the board.

Now, as I said:

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Old 06-25-2013, 02:15 PM   #28
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Okay, I was going to respond to this - but I don't think, judging by your last post - I don't think you're interested in understanding where I'm coming from and I don't think that I can trust you to continue to argue in good faith about this.
I understand because I was an atheist. Hell, even now, when I don't really want to talk about religion, I tell people I'm an atheist. So far, I've been pretty okay. This isn't an obscure thing that I have no idea about, I've lived it for years and I still lay claim to the identity sometimes to give myself a break.


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I'll just address your last point, and then take Kontan's advice.



Good lord no. Why would I want to do that? That's exhausting.

Atheists already confront all religions at all times, simply by existing.
Except atheist religions. Don't forget those.

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There is literally no way I can't because there's no truce between positive belief and a lack of positive belief. You can't say: "maybe it's the same God under different names. You can't say "maybe it's all a piece of the truth". Disbelief and belief don't mix. Period. The only options we have is to make this confrontation known, or to shut up about it & hide.
That's not really how universalism works. For example, everyone was freaking out recently because Pope Francis said that atheists will go to heaven anyway if they're good people. This isn't exactly new, it was established in Vatican II and really he's just breaking it down for those who don't really bother learning about Vatican II (while John Paul II and Benny didn't really contradict Vatican II, they didn't really promote it either). The reason why it doesn't matter is because God is bigger than faith, religion and church. He saves who he wants to save, the Church has no control over that. They can't, and it would be blasphemous to say so. You can't say who's saved and not saved, its not ours to know.

So they still think all other religions are wrong and misguided and Catholicism is the only revelation, they just think that maybe Buddha experienced God and was confused about it, and started Buddhism. It doesn't matter what you believe if God decided to save you.

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You want to know what I want? I want it to not be important. I'd like to not have to hide who I am from my relatives, my employers and my fiancée's family.

Also, fuck you for accusing my friend and fellow activist of being disingenuous and engaging in a "cheap ploy to legalize a drug." you don't know anything about him, or his religion.
You're accusing him of that when you say he's using religious privilege to legalize a drug. This is why I'm pointing out that you saying he's pulling privilege is bullshit.

And you probably will be okay if you declare you're atheist. Because it actually isn't a big deal. You might have some disagreements, and that's all that will happen to you. Fuck, my uncle is a cop and argues about religion with coworkers and inmates and nothing happens. Like he can do anything and no one will care aside for wanting to argue with him.

I asked this question because I remember once you said that I was using "the masters tools" when I said that my own religious experience is hard to describe. Because apparently not describing my religious experience for you to pick apart is akin to racism in the feminist movement.
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:18 PM   #29
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Also:



No I don't; and for the record atheism /= skepticism /= logic.

I really find it troubling that you think in these terms. Privileged isn't something that a group has to have, it can be eliminated across the board.

Now, as I said:

You have before, so I'm just clarifying whether you still think that way.

This is like when goths say there's non-goth privilege, or kinky people say there's vanilla privilege. They talk about it in ways that are divorced from other privileges, except when they want to compare it to other oppression (i.e. kink oppression is just as bad as homophobia/ kink people are encouraged to stay in the closet, therefore they are oppressed), I don't know why. Is it because you think being oppressed is glamourous? Do you envy the fact that a lot of us have to worry about our bodily safety each and every day, every time we go out in public? Whats so sexy about being oppressed?

So if you're just worried your inlaws will make fun of you, and call that oppression, I have to call bullshit. If you say all religious people oppress you, I call bullshit. You have no idea what its like to be oppressed and its clear.
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Old 06-25-2013, 05:57 PM   #30
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Oh Jesus...I know I said I was done, but then I actually bothered to look up Raelians.



They are not. What is colloquially meant. When a person talks about atheism. Militant or otherwise.

If this is what you mean when you say "atheist religions" Yes, I am in perpetual conflict with atheist religions.
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Old 06-25-2013, 06:42 PM   #31
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I don't really like Raelians either (I can't really put my finger on it though, I'm not too well educated about them). But they are atheists, very prolific atheists, just as much as you are. All atheists are, are people who do not believe in god. It doesn't mean that they don't have a religion. Just because there's a stereotype doesn't mean we have to adhere to a stereotype at all costs whenever we discuss it.

I mean colloquially speaking we all probably think of fedora wearing MRAs when we talk about atheists.
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Old 06-25-2013, 07:13 PM   #32
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I don't really like Raelians either (I can't really put my finger on it though, I'm not too well educated about them). But they are atheists, very prolific atheists, just as much as you are. All atheists are, are people who do not believe in god. It doesn't mean that they don't have a religion. Just because there's a stereotype doesn't mean we have to adhere to a stereotype at all costs whenever we discuss it.
When the average human being talks about atheists, they tend to mean people who lack positive belief in gods & usually the supernatural. If you're talking about the new atheist movement or the secularist movement, "atheist" tends to mean someone who at Lear professes to have no positive supernatural beliefs whatsoever.

Raelians have a positive belief that a race of Aliens named after/who were confused for Judeo-Christian biblical deities created the human race via cloning & contacted a man in 1973 and told him that: oh yeah - you should probably stop having war and gambling & stuff and sleep with some super-bangin' chicks so we can come back to earth & take you into the stars.

You can see why I might consider calling them atheists is senselessly pedantic.

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I mean colloquially speaking we all probably think of fedora wearing MRAs when we talk about atheists.
YOU think of that.
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Old 06-25-2013, 07:23 PM   #33
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I don't really like Raelians either (I can't really put my finger on it though, I'm not too well educated about them). But they are atheists, very prolific atheists, just as much as you are. All atheists are, are people who do not believe in god. It doesn't mean that they don't have a religion. Just because there's a stereotype doesn't mean we have to adhere to a stereotype at all costs whenever we discuss it.
When the average human being talks about atheists, they tend to mean people who lack positive belief in gods & usually the supernatural. If you're talking about the new atheist movement or the secularist movement, "atheist" tends to mean someone who at Least professes to have no positive supernatural beliefs whatsoever.

Raelians have a positive belief that a race of Aliens who were confused for Judeo-Christian biblical deities created the human race via cloning & contacted some dude in 1973 and told him that: 'oh yeah - you should probably stop having war and gambling & stuff and sleep with some super-bangin' chicks so the Elohime can come back to earth & take us with them into the stars. Also: totally take a swastika and join it with the star of David as your symbol - it's okay, no one will be offended - you're totally taking it back!"

...So, you can see why I might consider calling them a representative example of atheism in the context of this conversation to be AT BEST senselessly pedantic, bordering on insane troll logic.

They may not believe in a diety but Raelians aren't "atheists" like I'm an atheist - they're Scientologists without the golden 747's and atom bombs.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:24 PM   #34
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The Raelian church has a lot of money and has funded a lot of atheist activism like the bus ads. They are pretty much exactly what people think of when they think of atheists. They're kinda like Scientologists in that a lot of people don't really know the ins and outs of it and might not really know about the alien thing.

And lots of atheists I know have weird beliefs, I don't think at all atheism means no belief in anything odd at all. Most I know believe in ghosts or aliens. One guy I dated thought that one day humans would have their minds absorbed into computers and we'll become an electronic entity.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:54 PM   #35
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Yes, that's why I - the actual atheist in this discussion, had never fucking heard of them. That's why none of the ariticles or blogs I have read have mentioned them. That's why not a single atheist I know, has any fucking clue who they are - yet they bought some anti-clerical bus ads.

An atheist who believes in ghosts is missing the damn point and an atheist who assumes we'll all be data has watched too many episodes of Dollhouse.

What you are describing is neither a common, nor a normative thing in the atheist community. I don't give a crap if they bought some anti-clerical bus ads - their beliefs are fucking stupid, obviously - objectively false - and in no way represent me, or any atheist I have ever met in my entire life.
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:07 PM   #36
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Seriously - you might as well claim Scientologists are atheists. They don't have a deity as far as I know SO CLEARLY I'm all about Thetans and shit.

Gonna go get myself e-metered because I'm clearly dealing with a suppressive person.

'cause people can't live without faith in SOMETHING right?

That guy you dated was an idiot.
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:18 PM   #37
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Atheism comes in many forms, just because they aren't the same kind of atheist you are doesn't mean that they aren't atheists, some of what you've posted kind of sound like the Christians who insist that Catholics aren't Christian because they are so different. Catholics most certainly aren't what your average American thinks of when you say Christian but Catholics make up 23.9% of the US population (about a third of US Christians) and the only group of Christians that is larger is the Evangelicals at 26.3%. Neither group is what most people think of when you say Christians, most people think of members of mainline churches (Methodist, Baptists, Presbyterians, etc.) but they only make up 18.1% of Christians.


*statistics are from the Pew Forum and are from 2007, not the absolute best but the best I could be bothered to look up and the trend is people moving away from the mainline churches so the point still very much holds
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:29 PM   #38
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Here is the first fucking result when I googled atheism and Raelism:

http://www.examiner.com/article/rael...board-campaign

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A new atheist billboard campaign in Las Vegas is causing some attentions. The billboard states, “God is a Myth.” The good news is that God is a myth. The bad news... at least for the group who is responsible for putting up this new billboard is that Rael is a fraud (In my opinion).

The Raelian religion is basically a poor person’s Scientology complete with aliens and a self-help guide for life. Founded by Claude Vorilhon who now calls himself Rael, the religion is known for their use of various publicity stunts to gain attention. Every now and then they actually get it.


This time, the Raelian Movement is trying to use the success of the American Atheist billboard campaign and that of other atheist billboard campaigns to gain media attention. While atheists tend to agree with the message of this new billboard, the modern atheist community tends to distance ourselves from crazy alien-based religions.


Even though the only requirement for atheism is a lack of belief in deities, the modern atheistic community tends to embrace values of humanism, freethought, science, and skepticism. The Raelians don’t share many of those values.


Still, if such a billboard campaign were launched in Philadelphia, I think many atheists would try to redirect the publicity to atheist, humanist, and freethought groups in our local area while making it clear that we agree with the message, but we don’t agree with the messenger.
They're an opportunistic alien sex cult who jumped on the atheist billboard bandwagon. They are not a part of the normative atheist community, and someone who studies religion should fucking know this.

I feel like I'm being trolled here. If I am, hats off
to you.
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:35 PM   #39
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Seriously? This is a Catholics vs. Protestants thing?

Catholics believe that Jesus is the son of God who takes away the sins of the world via his mercy on us. Protestants belive that Jesus is the son of God who takes away the sins of the world via his mercy on us.

I hold no supernatural beliefs whatsoever. Raelians believe humans were designed by an alien called Yahweh - and I should totally screw a buch of hot chicks and give them 1% of my income so that those aliens will come back, after designing humans, waiting 245,000 years, then pretending to be gods to some pissed off desert nomads and then chose to secretly reveal themselves to some douchebag in 1973.
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:40 PM   #40
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You're the one who complained about feeling trolled by someone who knows a thing or two about religion but you fucked up one of the biggest religions in the world. Catholics do not believe Jesus is the son of god in a real sense. To them he is god. The holy trinity is one entity. That is a big fucking difference than him being the son of god. Also the whole having to have an intermediary between the followers and god is extremely different than believing faith is personal and internal.


I'm actually quite confused where you are coming from in many regards. Lets try to fix that. Tell us what groups you think make up atheism and tell us how you distinguish atheism from other types of irreligion.
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:43 PM   #41
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You madame, are making my HAIR hurt.
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:46 PM   #42
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Seriously? This is a Catholics vs. Protestants thing?

Catholics believe that Jesus is the son of God who takes away the sins of the world via his mercy on us. Protestants belive that Jesus is the son of God who takes away the sins of the world via his mercy on us.
Um, what? No? That isn't even accurate.

Its a "atheists are people who don't believe in God/gods" thing. Aliens aren't necessarily part of that definition. Especially when its pretty rational to believe some kind of life might exist somewhere, it just gets silly when you think they're coming here and cloning things and genetically modifying. Its not necessarily impossible, just wildly improbable.


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I hold no supernatural beliefs whatsoever. Raelians believe humans were designed by an alien called Yahweh - and I should totally screw a buch of hot chicks and give them 1% of my income so that those aliens will come back, after designing humans, waiting 245,000 years, then pretending to be gods to some pissed off desert nomads and then chose to secretly reveal themselves to some douchebag in 1973.
You don't, but lots do. I didn't claim anywhere that Raelians were awesome, I think they're pretty crazy, but they are atheists all the same. And probably not the most problematic atheists who exist.
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:48 PM   #43
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You know what? No. I'm not going to do that. It's not my job to educate either of you on modern atheism. If you want to equate a UFO cult with people who generally lack belief in the supernatural, I can only point you at the Internet.

Go watch Qualiasoup's youtube channel and look for the aliens. Go listen to Thearmintrees. You're just driving my blood pressure up at this point and I have neither the energy nor the inclination nor the patience to correct you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNDZb...e_gdata_player
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:54 PM   #44
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If angry white guys on the internet are the quintessential atheists who hold the keys to the atheist club, then fine. I didn't realize there was a proper atheist orthodoxy that casts out heretics. But don't ever try to argue with me again then that atheists are the most oppressed religious minority.
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:55 PM   #45
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Belief in the possibility of aliens in general is somewhat rational.

Belief that those aliens came to earth, engineered humanity for 245,000 years - then impersonated the major figures in Judeo-Christian mythology and later revealed themselves to ONE random guy in 1973 is STUPIDER than believing a rabbi rose from the dead to redeem mankind 2000 years ago.

At least Christians have distance & centuries of programming after their religion was spread by the sword. Historically, objectively, the Raelians are wrong, more throughly than any major religion on earth.

These Guys are worse than theists. At least theists have an excuse.
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:57 PM   #46
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But atheist doesn't mean rational.
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Old 06-25-2013, 10:05 PM   #47
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Neither one of those guys are angry - they're both British Vulcans.

There are plenty of female atheists - here's one now, who isn't a
A member of an alien sex cult.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abYPr...e_gdata_player

You want an atheist group started by a woman that's interested in social justice & feminism? Here's atheism +

http://atheismplus.com/

You want atheists of color? Here's the black atheists of America, one of their menbers is a friend of mine, who surprise DOESN'T believe aliens designed humanity.

http://www.blackatheistsofamerica.org/

Seriously, you have no idea what you're talking about. Now educate yourselves. Or don't. I don't care anymore. I'm done here.
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Old 06-25-2013, 10:12 PM   #48
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We had a whole thread of atheism + which sadly got sidetracked because apparently Dicky Dorkins is right when he says atheist women should shut up because they don't have it as bad as Muslim women, but whatever. I'm more than aware that other atheists exists and not all believe in aliens.

But that does not prove one bit that believing in aliens, being religious or being Raelian means one is not an atheist. By that definition that guy you posted earlier in North Carolina is not one bit an atheist.
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Old 06-25-2013, 10:15 PM   #49
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Jesus fuck Desp you are acting like a child, you get all pissy about people disagreeing with you and you just can't stand not having the last word.

The definition that you gave for atheism does not really match the actual definition, which is just the belief that there are no deities (and yes the use of the word belief was very much intentional, if you didn't hold it as a belief but instead thought of it as most likely true based on all evidence then you would be a freethinker not an atheist). Anything that fits the criteria for a group, no matter how fucking stupid it is, fits in the god damn group, you're the one saying they don't fit so please tell us why.
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Old 06-25-2013, 10:16 PM   #50
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You know what I should do though? I should apologize to Solumina, because at least she was interested in listening.

That's classy Sol. I'm not interested in talking right now, but if you want to understand this community later, feel free to reach out to me via PM or FB or email. Sorry to be snarky, this shot has just put me in a foul mood and I'm going to bed.
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