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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 10-07-2005, 03:38 AM   #101
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i·ro·ny Pronunciation (r-n, r-)
n. pl. i·ro·nies

1.a. The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.

b. An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.

C. A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect.

See Synonyms at wit1.

2.
a. Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs:

"Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated"

Richard Kain.

b. An occurrence, result, or circumstance notable for such incongruity.





I Heart Irony, Like WHOA!!!
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Old 10-07-2005, 09:02 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TStone
So back to the topic, should it be taught in school?
I don't see a problem with it, so long as its offered as a choice and not required learning, because it cannot currently be proven. Which makes it a theory.

Same with evolution. Tho parts of evolution may be proven, there's still parts that are huge question marks. Which leaves evolution, as it pertains to humans, still as a theory. Call it a hypothesis or an edjucated guess, whatever. bottom line its still just a theory.

I don't see why it can't be a mix of both. The reasons and hows behind it I mean. Which is why I stated in my first post that I don't buy into either theory completely on their own, but instead think it could very well be a mix of both. Evolution may, and probably was, in process and somebody - a god or just a really smart mo-fo came along and decided to speed the process up a bit. Skip a few steps.

And neither theory really expains exactly how the first spark of life actually got here. Theres rumour floating around the break room that it might have come from mars on an asteroid, due to that rock they found with the fossilized microbes or whatever the hell they were, which is a big motive behind the rejuvination of interest for exploring mars. But whose to say it actually came from mars? Maybe it came from Saturn or Jupiter. Or Uranus. Heh.

I don't think any one path by itself will help anybody really find all the facts. I think in order to really ever know you have to take into consideration all the different possibilities, look at the entire picture, not just a few pieces.

In regards to an earlier post about the 13 year old girl whose probe droids concluded she didn't have a personality, was that by chance inspiration for the movie Nell? Again with Jodi Foster. (i happen to be a fan of jodi foster. I like her.) It sounds to me that she didn't exactly not have a personality, just that her captors didn't allow her mind to grow, (mind being different from brain), thus prohibiting her personality to develop beyond that of an infant or toddler. They have personalities too, they can just be a bit difficult to distinguish sometimes. Anybody that's dealt with multiple little kids for any real length of time can see that.

And you people are fucking with my head now. Switching the tables on me while I sleep and making TStone's post the most agreeable all of a sudden? That's not nice.

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"What if everything around you
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What if all the world you think you know
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection
Is it all you wanted to be?
What if you could look right through the cracks?
Would you find yourself [or]
Find yourself afraid to see?..." -NIN
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Old 10-07-2005, 12:30 PM   #103
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Theories are taught in school. It's a place to learn about the world and what we, as a society, think of it. A place to ask questions; to learn to think and explore. If only facts were taught, It would be a short, boring experience.

Religion is okay for cultural teaching, to broaden our experiences, but should not be taught as dogma nor used to debunk scientific theory.

Many of the students in our school do not follow the Judeo-Christian religion. Why should they have to sit through instruction on its principals? If school curriculum seems at odds with a basic tennant of one's faith, the issue might be addressed at home, or in one's religious institution. It is not necessary for an entire classroom's instruction to be held up for a few students to find their comfort zone. That would mean that all religious students had the same right to take up class time for this purpose, or for the curriculum to be scoured of any material that any student might not find religiously acceptable.
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Old 10-07-2005, 06:24 PM   #104
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ID does not have to be taught in a religious way, if its ever taught at all, which I really don't see that happening anytime soon. But if you think about it, ID and Creationism are pretty much the same, as I've been realizing.

Anyway, for the Darwin fanatics out there, if you haven't already, check out a book called Forbidden Archaeology.
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"What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection
Is it all you wanted to be?
What if you could look right through the cracks?
Would you find yourself [or]
Find yourself afraid to see?..." -NIN
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Old 10-07-2005, 07:49 PM   #105
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Yes Stone, I understand what you're saying. Its still the same thing though.

Quote:
Intelligent Design (or ID) is a highly controversial claim holding that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent designer, rather than an undirected process such as natural selection. Most ID advocates state that their focus is on detecting evidence of design in nature, without regard to who or what the designer might be. But ID advocate William Dembski in his book "The Design Inference" http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.10/evolution.html lists God or an alien life force as two possible options. The scientific community does not recognise ID as a scientific theory and considers it to be creationist pseudoscience.
ID in summary
ID was born out of opposition to the theory of evolution and is investigating whether or not there is empirical evidence that life on Earth was designed by an intelligent agent or agents. Proponents of ID study objects in an attempt to isolate what they call signs of intelligence — physical properties of an object that necessitate design. Examples being considered include irreducible complexity, information mechanisms, and specified complexity. Many design theorists believe that living systems show one or more of these signs of intelligence, from which they infer that life is designed. This stands in opposition to naturalistic theories of evolution, which explain life exclusively through natural processes such as random mutations and natural selection.

William Dembski, one of ID's leading proponents, uses the example of Mt. Rushmore to provide an analogy to the underlying premise of ID:


"What about this rock formation convinces us that it was due to a designing intelligence and not merely to wind and erosion? Designed objects like Mt. Rushmore exhibit characteristic features or patterns that point us to an intelligence."--The Design Revolution, pg. 33.
The Intelligent Design movement, which began in the mid-1990s, is closely associated with the Center for Science and Culture, an organization that counts most of the leading ID advocates among its fellows or officers. The movement claims ID exposes the limitations of scientific orthodoxy, and of the secular philosophy of Naturalism. The ID movement has attracted considerable press attention and pockets of public support, especially among conservative Christians in the US.

Critics call ID an attempt to recast religious dogma in an effort to force public schools to teach creationism in schools, and ID features notably as part of a campaign known as Teach the Controversy. The National Academy of Sciences and the National Center for Science Education assert that ID is not science. While the scientific model of evolution by natural selection has observable and repeatable facts to support it such as the process of mutations, gene flow, genetic drift, natural selection, and speciation, the "Intelligent Designer" in ID is neither observable nor repeatable. This violates the scientific requirement of falsifiability. ID violates another cornerstone of the scientific method called Occam's Razor by creating an entity to explain something that may have a simpler and scientifically supportable explanation not involving outside help.

Critics contend that ID is attempting to redefine natural science.http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...aturalism.html Natural science uses the scientific method to create a posteriori knowledge based on observation alone (sometimes called empirical science). Intuition is extremely important in natural science, but the scientific method holds nothing to be true until it can be observed repeatedly. The idea that some outside intelligence created life on Earth is a priori (without observation) knowledge. ID proponents cite some complexity in nature that cannot yet be fully explained by the scientific method (for instance, abiogenesis, the generation of life from non-living matter, is only partially understood by science). They intuit that an intelligent designer is behind the part of the process that is not understood scientifically. Since the designer cannot be observed, it is a priori knowledge.

This a priori intuition that an intelligent designer (God or an alien life force) created life on Earth has been compared to the a priori claim that aliens helped the ancient Egyptians build the pyramids http://server1.fandm.edu/departments...letters_2.html. In both cases, the effect of this outside intelligence is not repeatable, observable, or falsifiable, and it violates Occam's Razor as well. Empirical scientists would simply say "we don't know exactly how the Egyptians built the pyramids" and list what is known about Egyptian construction techniques.

Origin of the term
The phrase "intelligent design", used in this sense, appeared in Christian creationist literature, including the textbook Of Pandas and People (Haughton Publishing Company, Dallas, 1989). The term was promoted more broadly by the retired legal scholar Phillip E. Johnson following his 1991 book Darwin on Trial. Johnson is the program advisor of the Center for Science and Culture and is considered the father of the intelligent design movement.
What Intelligent Design is not
Intelligent Design is not and does not claim to be an alternative theory replacing mutations, gene flow, genetic drift, natural selection, or speciation. All of these have been observed in laboratories and in the field. For example, humans have themselves created many new species and have observed new species appearing in nature. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-...peciation.html This is contrary to how ID is sometimes characterized by both supporters and critics.
Right now tho I'm more interested in the 'Nephilim' and the 'Sons of God'. Note the pluralization of son. This is very interesting shit.

Oh, and also, Creationism isn't just christian, its also islam and judaism. I spent 3 hours looking through bibles today at barnes & noble and the jewish use the old testament. The christian bible just includes the new testament (that which pertains to jesus) as well. My mother has a koran written in arabic and english which I'll be consulting to make sure I'm correct on that, but I'm already mostly sure of it, from what I recall durring the three years that I lived in the middle east.
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"What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection
Is it all you wanted to be?
What if you could look right through the cracks?
Would you find yourself [or]
Find yourself afraid to see?..." -NIN
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Old 10-07-2005, 11:07 PM   #106
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Okay, fine. You say tomato, I say toma-to. however you translate that in type.

And yes, all three religions pretty much started out the same, worshiping the same god. The book of Judaiah, however the hell you spell that - also called the Tanakh - is the same as the old testament. It starts with genesis, etc etc. And, as far as I know, the Koran (which is the Islamic bible, i may have spelled it wrong) also starts with Genesis. Muslems do in fact recognise and respect Jesus. They just don't follow him as the son of god. Their messiah - or prophet as I'm not sure which one he's referred to as - was Mohamed, they call god Alah, and their callender is about 400 years behind ours. They traditionally run on an Islamic year. Their sabbath is Friday. Jews sabbath is Saturday. (sabbath = day of rest). Or maybe its reverse. No, I'm most possitive that is correct.

Jewish don't recognise Jesus as the Messiah. That's primarily their only difference from christianity. Whether they believe he was a prophet or not I'm not sure. Now I'm sure there are other differences besides these, but this is the basic gist. And I'm sure from our history of butting heads you may disagree with part or even all of this, but if so feel free to look for yourself and correct me if I'm in error anywhere.

One thing I might mention here is that - and you may or may not be aware of this - is that there are approximately 96 books that the catholic church chose to omit from the bible. I have no idea if those books are omitted from the jewish or islamic religions. It seems like they probably were, in whole or in part, because they are apparently so controversial. But they do exist and they are obtainable. My grandfather had them. They're probably still in his house somewhere. They deal a lot with things the catholics didn't agree with, to include Mary of Magdolen. There's a book called the Lost Scriptures, which may or may not contain all 96 books that I mention here, but it does at least contain several of them.
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"What if everything around you
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What if all the world you think you know
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection
Is it all you wanted to be?
What if you could look right through the cracks?
Would you find yourself [or]
Find yourself afraid to see?..." -NIN
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Old 10-07-2005, 11:45 PM   #107
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in addition to, stone. As in, the christian bible just contains the new testament as well.

Ok maybe that sentence is fucked up. take out the word 'just.'

KJV contains the old testament and the new testament. New testament deals with jesus. Old testament does not. Jews go by the old testament. I was specifically compairing the two of them today - the book of judaiah, which in parenthesis below the title states (old testament) and the king james version.
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"What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection
Is it all you wanted to be?
What if you could look right through the cracks?
Would you find yourself [or]
Find yourself afraid to see?..." -NIN
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Old 10-08-2005, 12:11 AM   #108
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Which versions are you referring to? Why are they both called the old testament, if they don't contain the same information then?
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"What if everything around you
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What if all the world you think you know
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection
Is it all you wanted to be?
What if you could look right through the cracks?
Would you find yourself [or]
Find yourself afraid to see?..." -NIN
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Old 10-08-2005, 12:24 AM   #109
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I'm going by what I'm finding in both book stores and encyclopedias online, which state that Genesis is the first book of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament). I'm not concerned about how some groups of christians interpret it. I'm going by what I'm reading and seeing, which keeps saying the hebrew bible is the old testament. are you saying that the writers of the encyclopedia don't know what the hell they're talking about either?
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"What if everything around you
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What if all the world you think you know
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection
Is it all you wanted to be?
What if you could look right through the cracks?
Would you find yourself [or]
Find yourself afraid to see?..." -NIN
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Old 10-08-2005, 12:31 AM   #110
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Quote:
According to the Jewish tradition, the Tanakh consists of twenty-four books (enumerated below). The Torah has five books, Nevi'im contains eight books, and Ketuvim has eleven.

These twenty-four books are the same books found in the Protestant Old Testament, but the order of the books is different. The enumeration differs as well: Christians count these books as thirty-nine, not twenty-four. This is because Jews often count as a single book what Christians count as several.

As such, one may draw a technical distinction between the Jewish Tanakh and the similar, but non-identical, corpus which Christians call the Old Testament. Thus, some scholars prefer Hebrew Bible as a term that covers the commonality of Tanakh and the Old Testament while avoiding sectarian bias.

The Catholic and Orthodox Old Testaments contain six books not included in the Tanakh. They are called deuterocanonical books (literally "canonized secondly" meaning canonized later).

In Christian Bibles, Daniel and the Book of Esther sometimes include extra material that is not accepted as canonical by Judaism. The material is deuterocanonical, so it is also not accepted by most Protestants.

Books of the Tanakh
The Hebrew text originally consisted only of consonants, together with some inconsistently applied letters used as vowels (matres lectionis). During the early middle ages, the Masoretes codified the oral tradition for reading the Tanakh by adding two special kinds of symbols to the text: niqqud (vowel points) and cantillation signs. The latter indicate syntax, stress (accentuation), and the melody for reading.

The books of the Torah have generally-used names which are based on the first prominent word in each book. The English names are not translations of the Hebrew; they are based on the Greek names created for the Septuagint which in turn were based on Rabbinic names describing the thematic content of each of the Books.

The Torah (Pentateuch) consists of:

Genesis בראשית
Exodus שמות
Leviticus ויקרא
Numbersבמדבר
Deuteronomy דברים
Ok, there's the difference. So we're both right. Technically.
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"What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection
Is it all you wanted to be?
What if you could look right through the cracks?
Would you find yourself [or]
Find yourself afraid to see?..." -NIN
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Old 10-08-2005, 12:41 AM   #111
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I'm trying to find out more about the Nephilim and the sons of god. Everything I find on them, which isn't much so far, keeps saying their origins are described in chapter 6 of genesis, but they're not described in chapter 6 of genesis, at least not in the king james version that I've looked at, which so far has been one online version of it, and two in the book store, which both claimed to be KJV, yet one was more detailed than the other. The online version seems to be the most summarised. All 3 mention giants being on the earth, but none of them go into any detail about them.

Also, where exactly is Lilith and this 2nd creation story in genesis that I keep hearing about? I have seen nothing mentioned of either of them in genesis, in any of the 3 versions i've looked through. Any suggestions?
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"What if everything around you
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What if all the world you think you know
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection
Is it all you wanted to be?
What if you could look right through the cracks?
Would you find yourself [or]
Find yourself afraid to see?..." -NIN
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Old 10-08-2005, 01:10 AM   #112
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I never said I was well versed in christian dogma. Show me where you read something I wrote that suggested such a thing. I know the basic gist of it. I've always wanted to read the bible, as a piece of historical reference and not from a religious standpoint. I have read parts of it here and there through the years but have never actually read the whole thing from start to finish. I've looked certain items up in it before. I have heard several stories that are in the bible, mostly from my mother (we talk about a whole lot of shit, from politics to comedy and have had a lot of conversations in regards to the history of the world and mankind. she lives right next door to me, and she has read the bible many times over durring her childhood, mostly due to the fact that she had a catholic mother).

So once again I will ask you, if the information is different, then why are both called the old testament? If they branch off at a specific chapter, then that means the information is different, does it not? And no, I did not misread what you said.
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"What if everything around you
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What if all the world you think you know
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection
Is it all you wanted to be?
What if you could look right through the cracks?
Would you find yourself [or]
Find yourself afraid to see?..." -NIN
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Old 10-08-2005, 01:16 AM   #113
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I had to look her up in the encyclopedia (lilith that is). It states that she is not actually mentioned in the bible, except possibly in one place, briefly, and that she's based more in myth. That some interpret the point when god created adam he also created lilith, but that it does not actually state that in genesis, which is true. At least not in the king james version. Which is the most widely accepted version, is it not?
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"What if everything around you
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What if all the world you think you know
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection
Is it all you wanted to be?
What if you could look right through the cracks?
Would you find yourself [or]
Find yourself afraid to see?..." -NIN
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Old 10-08-2005, 06:12 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder
I had to look her up in the encyclopedia (lilith that is). It states that she is not actually mentioned in the bible, except possibly in one place, briefly, and that she's based more in myth. That some interpret the point when god created adam he also created lilith, but that it does not actually state that in genesis, which is true. At least not in the king james version. Which is the most widely accepted version, is it not?
Of course! The bible has never been edited! How silly!
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Old 10-08-2005, 10:23 AM   #115
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I think it's odd when people say on the one hand that humans are clever animals, and on the other, that even though they believe other animals evolved from less complex forms of life, that humans didn't evolve from a common ancestor that we'd call a monkey.
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Old 10-08-2005, 11:05 AM   #116
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Quote:
Crucifixion is an ancient method of execution, in which the victim was tied or nailed to a large wooden cross (Latin: crux) and left to hang there until dead. It was a common form of execution from the 6th century BC to the 4th century AD, especially among the Persians, Egyptians, Carthaginians, and Romans. Crucifixion has gained notoriety in Christianity as a method used by the Romans to put Jesus to death, and the cross has become the main Christian symbol.
Which means that my statement that you quoted me on is true. It does not, however, mean that I claim to be well versed on christianity, nor should it be interpreted by anyone who reads it, that I claim any such thing.

I remember one specific instance when I somehow got on the subject of jesus with a co-worker in the break room, back before 'the passion of the christ' went to theaters. In fact the anticipation of that movie was probably what inspired the conversation. The woman I was talking to swore up and down nobody else has ever been crucified, that it was the way jesus was executed and nobody else. At least 4 or 5 others in the room chimed in with her, swearing the same thing and refused to believe otherwise.

The fact that I know specifics does not mean that I am, nor that I claim to be, well versed in the subject. And, once again, I will stand by the idea that christianity, islam and judaism all started out "pretty much the same." While aspects of the three have changed over time, depending on whose translating, interpreting, and writing their scriptures, all three are rooted in the same concepts. Keep in mind that the bulk of the writings and stories in the old testament were passed down from generation to generation by word of mouth for centuries, if not longer, before they were ever written down. Add to that errors in translation, as well as various men who while copying from one to the next may or may not have changed certain things such as names or events, to better fit their ideas of how things went. There were scribes and monks who spent much of their lives doing nothing else but making copies, by hand, of the various scriptures. So to believe that in all of that time no errors were ever made either deliberately or by mistake, is illogical.
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"What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection
Is it all you wanted to be?
What if you could look right through the cracks?
Would you find yourself [or]
Find yourself afraid to see?..." -NIN
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Old 10-08-2005, 07:05 PM   #117
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ED, you need to learn more about a subject such as religion before plowing away and defending yourself by stating your relative ignorance on the subject. Otherwise you'll "pretty much" seem to us no different than those co-workers seemed to you.

p.s. just because you just found something out, you don't have to tell us, ok? Some of us are quite versed on this subject and needn't footnotes. But thanks anyway.
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Old 10-08-2005, 08:58 PM   #118
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My penis tastes like pungent lemonade...

...I just thought you should all know.
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Old 10-08-2005, 09:00 PM   #119
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oh, for christ's sake disfunction - take a shower.

you college kids...
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Old 10-08-2005, 09:10 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by edible_eye
oh, for christ's sake disfunction - take a shower.

you college kids...
I bathe in the blood of my victim. Today my victim was a lemon tree... and a patch of sugar cane. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
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Old 10-08-2005, 09:58 PM   #121
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Quote:
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My penis tastes like pungent lemonade...

...I just thought you should all know.

Post Disfunction Penis Taste Test:

Subject #7564.b

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Old 10-09-2005, 12:08 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Empty_Purple_Stars
Post Disfunction Penis Taste Test:

Subject #7564.b

*note to self, vegetarian diet does not make penis taste sweeter.*
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Old 10-09-2005, 05:11 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Blushing Heliophobe
Alright, this is becoming a new flesh out of an age old debate...my last thoughts on what you bring up, Peter, is that either way, everything you believe in life in one way or another depends on faith. As far as proving positives and negatives and all that mess goes, evolution isn't proven and always has had many gaps and flaws - therefore, you have to have faith in it to believe in it. No one has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt how everything started, Evolutionists or Creationists...

As far as the whole 'logic' thing goes, you may believe that, logically, God doesn't exist. But isn't it logical to assume that if you don't, as a human being, know everything, that the absolute confirmation or negation of a higher power/superior being may be included in the part you don't know?

Just a thought...
Thank you BH for being one of the few in this thread with an intellectual argument rather than a *blatantly* biased one.

Do I have beliefs in God? Yes
Do I force my beliefs on other people? No
Am I open to other peoples beliefs? Yes

How many of you could answer the last two questions with the same answer as me? For those who do, I will have an intelligent conversation with you on the matter. Those who do not, I will not join in your squabbling and whining.

Personally, I believe that if we do not keep religion and state seperate, then chaos and civil war will ensue. Both should be fully allowed and fairly represented (when it comes to all religions and all parties of politics), but kept safely seperate.
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Old 10-09-2005, 09:35 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by TStone
And then there’d be more lemon flavored penises, and really…who wants that?
You don't even know the half of it.
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Old 10-09-2005, 10:04 AM   #125
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A fact, you people are getting on my last fucking nerve. You and your goddamn double speak, “I don’t force my beliefs on other people, I’m open to other people’s beliefs,” and then turn around and say, “those people that agree with me with what I just wrote are smart and I’ll have a conversation with them.”
Read it again. I said that I will have a conversation with those who agree with me. NOT that everyone should agree with me. I was telling you the choice that I myself made over the matter. Individuality makes us people, but it also configures how we socialize with other people. I wouldn't choose to have a screaming pointless argument with someone who won't listen, over a quiet individual who is willing to listen, then retort with their own views.

You see? What I said was that I'll converse with you on a civil level, not have a flame war because I want everyone to believe or not believe in a sentient being.

This thread has kinda fallen into the whole flame war category anyhow, so can everyone just make peace and possibly just let this thread die?
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