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Old 09-20-2007, 10:06 AM   #1
Edward Strange
 
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A question 'bout the nature of Goth.

Good evening,

I am writing this post because I want to learn about Goth. Which is one of the reasons why I originally came to this forum.
I consider myself as I like to say "a goth-in-training", that is to say, I felt reasonably secure in my 'goth-ness' (ooh that sounded -bad-) I just didn't feel I knew enough about the subculture or myself.
I didn't feel comfortable assuming the full 'title', as it were.

I worried that I wouldn't do the subculture or myself justice. Which would result in people throwing sharp things at my while chanting "wannabe!"
Although, having finished those two paragraphs, I wonder if perhaps it's too late for me already...

...But yes, assuming there is hope for me yet, I will continue.

My adventures with Goth hardly qualify me to be a poster boy for the subculture.
I can remember a time when I was downright hostile to everyone and everything alternative.
I can also remember the time I turned to a friend of mine and said I wanted too be a goth, so that I might be thought cool and make friends, only then to follow all the stereotypes that I'm sure people such as yourselves hate because it spreads misinformation about the subculture as well as giving it a bad name.

Needless to say, I'm not very proud of my youth. But now I'm older and wiser and after many more adventures have not only because a great deal more aware of pretty much everything (a story best saved for another time perhaps) but also I found myself doubting the person I was claiming to be, while at the same time falling more and more in love with what is largely considered that 'Goth scene proper'.

So I went out and listened too Bauhaus and Switchblade Symphony and Siouxsie Sioux and loved it and enjoyed it and things seem to have been on the up since then.
I realised that I really loved the subculture because it made me happy and confident with myself as well as having a long list of music, books, film etc that I really enjoyed.
So I decided to assume the mantel 'goth-in-training' until such a time when I felt I could find myself being taken seriously when I did claim to be part of the subculture.

Urgh.
This sounds so bad.

And I feel, personally that perhaps such a time is approaching when I can throw off this trainee mantel and advance too "demi-goth". That is, someone who has the potential to be an okay goth, if they would stop caring so damn much about what other people thought of them.
I'm still very much aware on what other people think of me, you see...

But before I make this transition, there are a few things on my mind.
Recently I've had my thoughts on what the very core on what Goth is, shaken to the very core.
The very core!

Since I 'returned' to Goth, fresh and eager to learn about it's true nature, I've thought that it was a subculture based on music.
Which would make sense as before Goth Rock, were there any Goths?
And I'd always thought... Well... No.

That is until I read a post from a lady on this very forum saying how before there was the music, there were Goths.
Which sounds -very- stupid to say.
Of course there were!
Just under a different name, if any name at all.

They may not have had the music, but they certainly had the interest in all the other things that have been stapled to Goth over the years. Culture wise.

And before now, I've always felt that if you didn't like the music, you weren't a Goth.
Much like claiming to be a Beatles fan without actually liking the Beatles.
Which made perfect sense to me and I was fine with it, because after all, not Goth did not mean the same as 'not cool'.

But this sudden (if rather foolish) realisation that there was Goth before '79 makes me wonder if I should reconsider my definition of Goth.
I felt that it was all about the music, when you boiled it all away, that is what really matter, right at the very core... Etc.

But now I wonder if that is... Right.
I can see very strong arguments from both points of view as to what the very essence of Goth really is.
And that there is a certain amount of elitism floating around as well... Which isn't... Something I like.

But yes!
My question to you is, what is at the very soul of Goth? How do you know if you are a Goth or not?

This will, in addition to educating me further, allow me to see once and for all if I am 'Goth or not'...

Thankyou for reading.
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And then a chubby puppy with teensy legs rolls past which makes me giggle like a little school girl and forget what I was thinking about...

Breathing heard just below the floorboards.
The sense of something terrible rousing itself from
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Old 09-20-2007, 10:22 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Strange
This will, in addition to educating me further, allow me to see once and for all if I am 'Goth or not'...
It will also escalate into a 10 page long argument, methinks
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Old 09-20-2007, 10:36 AM   #3
delicti
 
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Goth as a named subculture arguably didn't exist before 1979. However, there were a lot of proto-goth bands out there that would later pave the way to form what is now considered goth, years before the term goth was coined.

The usual transition was with punk bands crossing over to darker, more experimental sounds. Combine this with newer punk bands that better fit under the name "post-punk," and you that's where goth really began to emerge from. I could name a few for you to check out, but that's really for an entirely different thread.

How do you know whether you're goth? That's not really quantifiable; it's easier to know if you aren't. There is something to be said about enjoying the music and the subculture in a way that isn't completely serious that preserves the initial intent of the scene, but largely it's an individual thing.

Really, you shouldn't worry about it. Ultimately you want to be yourself, and not let something like a subculture interfere with that. Just be you, and if that happens to be goth, that's great.
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Old 09-20-2007, 11:04 AM   #4
Edward Strange
 
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You are of course right Deliciti.
I've told much the same thing to various people on Emily Strange forum where I 'work' (ie. Moderatate) and it's very hypocritical of me not to apply those same lessons to myself.

I think that the problem with me arises with me still having pangs of desperately wanting to belong to something, anything! While at the same time being very self-conscious and wibbling about not being 'interesting enough' to belong to the very thing I claim to be a part of.

I do owe Goth a great deal, whether I am one or not, it's really helped me discover myself and feel alot more happier with who I am than I have been in a long while.
I think maybe it's that which makes me feel I should go the whole nine yards and I wonder whether I'm the right sort of person too actually do such a thing.
Without ending up in a situation similar too trying to push a square through a circular hole.
No matter how hard you try, or attempt to convince yourself it -will- fit in, it just won't and you should give up.

Again, you are right, I shouldn't worry, but I do, you know?
I feel some serious pondering is needed.
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And then a chubby puppy with teensy legs rolls past which makes me giggle like a little school girl and forget what I was thinking about...

Breathing heard just below the floorboards.
The sense of something terrible rousing itself from
from its torpor.
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Old 09-20-2007, 01:53 PM   #5
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On this forum we see a lot of people who are misinformed and clearly lack self-awareness. You are the opposite extreme - extremely self-reflective and thoughtful. I appreciate this. I once wrote a similar post to yours on the alt.gothic.fashion forum, and was basically told, "who cares - be yourself!" It was pretty good advice and worked out well for me .

I also used to care a lot about whether or not I'd "earned" the title of being goth. For the first year I was into it, I listened to only old school goth, dressed in a gyspy-goth sort of fashion, and swooned over architecture and black lace with the romanticism only teenagers can maintain. But for years I didn't count that year towards "time in the scene," because at the time I didn't know any other goths, and didn't have any direct experience of the scene besides the internet and dancing to Bauhaus in my bedroom. It still wasn't really clear at that point whether it was a phase or not.

Now, years later, I have my answer. I am goth to the bone - I love the music, the atmosphere of it all, the decadent clothing, the types who are generally attracted to the scene. It sounds like you're in a similar position to where I was - you know the Goth 101 type information but aren't fully confident in your interest just yet. My advice would be to say that you are "into goth." That demonstrates interest and knowledge without the potential stigma of a misapplied label. And keep asking questions! Normally I ignore "what is goth" type questions, but it's clear you put some thought into this, and as I said I appreciate that.
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Old 09-20-2007, 03:21 PM   #6
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Some times I call my-self a goth-in-training which mysteriously spells G.I.T if you only use the first letters...
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Old 09-21-2007, 06:56 PM   #7
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I think everyone to some degree has done this.

The BEST thing you can do, really, to see if you like it is hit up some scenes or some clubs. I pretty much swear on that. Other than that, continue finding music that is gothic and learning about it. Not all of it you will like. There's LOTS of goth bands I can't stand or even really care to know about in great detail.

Just be you. There's so many breeds of goths these days that you're more than likely going to end up falling into one of the sub categories. Essentially, when you mix and mingle with the scenes and the people, you will learn very quickly what you like and don't like about goth.

Also, goth is VERY VERY regional. In the northwest, you have stuff like VNV Nation and lots of etherial I suppose. If you hit up the south, you're going to get deathrock, harsh EBM, and aggro industrial.
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Old 09-21-2007, 09:21 PM   #8
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How about stop trying to be a goth, and just be you. You don't need a name to identify yourself, just use the one your parents gave you.
What is with this preoccupation.?
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