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Old 05-08-2012, 03:15 PM   #51
Elystan
 
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Consider that "goth" was primarily a pejorative term for people who dressed a certain way, that when it took off the bands associated with the scene such as it was weren't the same as the bands either us enlightened folk (including you pretend enlightened folk) or the unwashed masses now call goth, and the label was retroactively applied to our beloved musical icons almost as a smear.

I think there's a useful distinction to be made between goth as an umbrella term for people who like to dress in black and music made by people who like to dress in black, and goth as a more specific term within the umbrella category of "all things gothic". Would it not be unreasonable to assume in every case that it's the specific term which is intended? What do you call the aforementioned tier 2's (and below because let's face it there are worse musicians out there than marilyn manson et al)?
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Old 05-08-2012, 03:18 PM   #52
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Also:

Goth is not a subculture, and hasn't been since 1983. It's barely even a genre of music since all the bands which actually are goth actually aren't ('cept maybe Bauhaus but Peter Murphy is the biggest sellout since Peter Hook).

How do you describe someone who dresses in black and listens to FoTN, TON, NiN or Marilyn Manson? I like to use the term 'lesser goth' or 'tier two goth'. Of course people who listen to the Doors are superior even to our vaunted selves (except me 'cause I like to listen to the Doors 8). Kneel before me.)

Your newest persecuted newcomer is quite right however to observe that words change and adapt through usage. 'Goth' as a subculture based around the big four bands (I'm excluding the Cure out of habit) is more or less a fantasy. The majority of those who self identify as goths in this day and age listen to shit like Combichrist.
My point is merely that no set amount of sophistication, "darkness" or litteracy is required to identify as "goth" at all. And "goth" is CERTAINLY not something you are born as, that is just a vulgar idea. You aren't born goth any more than you are born a Christian or Republican.
Fuck, most things are choices these days, and I am not saying some things aren't environmentally affected, but you really aren't born many things.
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Old 05-08-2012, 03:24 PM   #53
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Goth is a hereditary mental condition that compels people to write poetry, dress exclusively in black, and be sad most of the time. WE JUST CAN'T HELP IT. We were BORN this way!

Goth can't be a genre of music. That's stupid.
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Old 05-08-2012, 03:27 PM   #54
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My point is merely that no set amount of sophistication, "darkness" or litteracy is required to identify as "goth" at all.
Some of the posters on this site could have fooled me..

Also have you guys ever noticed the way you don't actually argue with people at all, you just project your own insecurities onto your interlocutors and pretend they've said the things you want to get angry about?
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Old 05-08-2012, 03:32 PM   #55
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If you want to me to argue on your terms though, goth is a particularly hilariously easy genre to subvert.

"No, we didn't think of ourselves as Goth, There was no movement." -- Dave Roberts [Sex Gang Children]

"We weren't Goth, we were a straight-ahead rock and roll band who dressed like the New York Dolls." -- Rocco [Flesh for Lulu]

"We absolutely didn't start as a Goth band." -- Michael Aston [Gene Loves Jezebel]

"I've never been a Goth, not in the traditional sense, although there was a short period where I wore heavier make-up." -- Gitane Demone [Christian Death]

"Siouxsie, the Cramps and Bauhaus, even the Cure to an extent, were more archetypal [Goth] than we were." -- Wayne Hussey [Sisters of Mercy, The Mission]

"We never consciously focused on, or identified with any movement or any dialogue other than our own." -- Peter Murphy [Bauhaus]

"We never considered ourselves part of the goth thing." -- Ian Astbury [Southern Death Cult]

"I've often wondered why I've ever been entered into the Goth category!" -- Johnny Indovina [Human Drama]

"The moment a Goth band says, 'We are not a Goth band,' that's the end of their career." -- Mick Mercer [Author, Gothic Rock]

"But I don't think anybody with any self-respect would admit to being Goth" -- Rozz Williams [Christian Death, Shadow Project]

Do I need to find quotes by Andrew Eldritch and Siouxsie Sioux to go with these or have you all watched those interviews yourselves?
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Old 05-08-2012, 03:37 PM   #56
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We are actually fully aware of that and that is precisely why goth is NOT any personality type or any serious form of identity!
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Old 05-08-2012, 04:23 PM   #57
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So is it just coincidence that black has been my first choice of colour for clothing since I had any option? That I suffer from frequent bouts of depression? That I'm very introverted and antisocial? That liminal states of consciousness are my thing? That I can't resist a girl with a crooked nose and thin lips?

I feel dirty dignifying this with a clarification but no I am not saying that one is born a goth.

But I do find that I am better able to relate to the works of some artists than others. Could this be because they're expressing an outlook more similar to my own?

Goth is a horribly reductionist term of course and it doesn't capture the nuances of personality people have. I find it difficult to relate to most self-identifying goths, but they're not really goths by the most stringent definitions, because they like to stomp along to Faderhead and Angelspit and get excited about Emilie Autumn concerts. These are however the people who constitute a subculture.

Is it any coincidence that the only person I know who shares my deep appreciation of the according to Hoyle iconic goth bands feels even greater revulsion than I do toward these the living breathing interacting gothic masses? Doesn't stop her being visually unmistakeable as a goth though.

I have often reflected that it's better to be the goth one in a bunch of cool kids than the cool one in a bunch of goth kids. Experience has borne this out. I can however admit that I'm a total cliche and chuckle to myself about not fitting in anywhere despite or perhaps even because of this.

At the very minimum I think an appreciation for intelligent forms of artwork can be indicative of a base level of intelligence, an attraction to melancholic forms of artwork can be indicative of melancholia, an attraction to disturbing artworks can be indicative of inner disturbance, etc.

So yes I believe that the personae people construct for themselves out of affiliation with sounds, imagery or literature can offer insights into that persons probable personality. And 'gothic' in this sense can mean any of a number of different things, some broad, some narrow, some more or less comprehensive, most ignorant; but why not paint the first few strokes with a broad brush?
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Old 05-08-2012, 05:11 PM   #58
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So is it just coincidence that black has been my first choice of colour for clothing since I had any option? That I suffer from frequent bouts of depression? That I'm very introverted and antisocial? That liminal states of consciousness are my thing? That I can't resist a girl with a crooked nose and thin lips?
That's called being a person. And I share none of those characteristics nor preferences.
So, according to your logic, I can't be goth? Must goths like girls with crooked noses and thin lips? Where the hell does that even come from?

Or could it be possible that none of those things have jack shit to do with goth and now you're just saying whatever you like is goth and whatever you don't isn't?
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You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
real classy
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:51 PM   #59
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It seems like the bots always go after me.
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:03 PM   #60
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It seems like the bots always go after me.
Its because you're irresistible.
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:14 PM   #61
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No, YOU'RE irresistible.
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:16 PM   #62
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Shall we jack the thread with our vomit inducing love making, my sweet?
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:20 PM   #63
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I've got something you can jack. :3
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:23 PM   #64
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I should really make a gif of me having water shoot out my nose.
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:24 PM   #65
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I'd rather have you giving us diabetes than they give us an ulcer.
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You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
real classy
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:27 PM   #66
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I should really make a gif of me having water shoot out my nose.
I know something you can make. <3
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:32 PM   #67
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Is it LOVE WITH YOU?!
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:34 PM   #68
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It totally is! How did you know? <3333
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:37 PM   #69
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Knock knock!
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:38 PM   #70
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Who's there? :3
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:38 PM   #71
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Its me! And I love you!
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:42 PM   #72
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Awww. I less then three you, too!
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Couldn't rest, nah nigga I was stressed
Had me creepin' 'round corners, homie sleepin' in my vest.


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Old 05-08-2012, 10:44 PM   #73
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You warm my icy black gawfic heart.
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Old 05-08-2012, 10:53 PM   #74
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I know something else I can warm.
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Couldn't rest, nah nigga I was stressed
Had me creepin' 'round corners, homie sleepin' in my vest.


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Old 05-08-2012, 10:59 PM   #75
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hey boo, its late and I'm tired but I don't want to be the one to sign off first <3
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