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Old 12-10-2012, 01:54 PM   #7326
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Lovley Miss Honeythorn! Very pagan looking. I might try to illustrate this one
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:38 PM   #7327
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I haven't been on here in a long while....
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:05 PM   #7328
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Lovely pics Jin!
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:22 PM   #7329
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Lovley Miss Honeythorn! Very pagan looking. I might try to illustrate this one
Illustrate?? :o Eeek! *hides*

And thankyou Being a Pagan tends to help me out there
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:29 PM   #7330
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Illustrate?? :o Eeek! *hides*

And thankyou Being a Pagan tends to help me out there
HT - very impressive. How did you get the horns to stay in/on the headband?
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:20 AM   #7331
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Fankyou ^^

Just hot glue and fine fishing line I drilled into the base of each horn once on each side. As best I could with a piddly Dremel with a not too great drill bit.

Couldn't get all the way through so I had to leave the holes as they were, and squirt hot glue into each little hole, then jam the end of the line in there and smear the still hot and squidgy glue over it to seal the end in.

Then I sort of wove the line through the knitted holes of the headband, and hooked it into the crevices and knobbles of the antler bases. Just round and round then seal the other end with more glue. The whole lot is hidden by the bunny fur.

Sewing those bloody pearl beads onto every spot where the knit forms a little knot was a right pain in the arse . Worth it in the end though
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:58 PM   #7332
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Illustrate?? :o Eeek! *hides*

And thankyou Being a Pagan tends to help me out there
No need to freak out and hide.


YET!

Mwahahaha!

But seriously, I think lovely young women such as yourself should be immortalized in fan art at the minimum miss Honeythorn
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Old 12-12-2012, 11:48 PM   #7333
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HoneyThorn.. they are amazing! Do you do paid work at all?
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:23 AM   #7334
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HT, love the antlers. Haejin, love the pics. (The first one would make a cool wallpaper).
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:51 AM   #7335
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HoneyThorn.. they are amazing! Do you do paid work at all?
Good gods no Unprofessional is my middle name ( so is Louise ) The state of these on the underneath would render me with floods of complaints were I to make stuff for people. I'd have to have a billion disclaimers stating my amatuer...ness

One of my biggest regrets is not moving to a different college when I took art and design. Mine was SHIT. I should have moved to the one actually in my town . It's reputation for the art department is really quite high for the west midlands.

Too late now sadly as I would have to pay to do a proper course to learn how to do these things on a decent sellable scale . A lot. And there are others who do it so much better than me. Thing is their prices are appallingly high and it galls me . So I make my own. Not as good sure but they cost me almost nothing to make and the time spent making is something I enjoy.

I see a lot of comments from artists and makers in the goth and also steampunk "communities" who moan when people moan about their prices for their work. The go on and ON about how much time they have to spend making the stuff, costs of materials ect " if I had to do this for a job in a shop I would need a salary of X "

Annoys me. They started doing it for fun, because they like doing it . They made the mistake of trying to turn it into a sideline job. When it becomes a job it loses it's fun I find.

Besides I can't bring myself to charge anyone for anything. As the stuff I make costs me very little ( most of the dead stuff I find in the hedges and ditches or buy cheap ) I feel it's wrong to charge .

I annoy my wheeler dealer brother so much being that way :P


So on the VERY rare occasion I make things for anyone , I do indeed toss them a billion disclaimers of it not being a professional quality job, it will involve hot glue more than likely, and I never ever ask for or accept money for anything I make. I just do it for fun
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:52 AM   #7336
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Ooops that turned into a bit of an epic... sorry about that !
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:46 PM   #7337
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I see a lot of comments from artists and makers in the goth and also steampunk "communities" who moan when people moan about their prices for their work. The go on and ON about how much time they have to spend making the stuff, costs of materials ect " if I had to do this for a job in a shop I would need a salary of X "

Annoys me. They started doing it for fun, because they like doing it . They made the mistake of trying to turn it into a sideline job. When it becomes a job it loses it's fun I find.
That's not fair, it IS a costly business and usually you have to pay yourself pennies on the hour, at least starting up. And unless its commission (which is actually harder to do because a lot of people impulse buy and won't want to wait, and there's the risk of buyers remorse after you've started and they cancel the order) you have to eat those costs until you find a buyer. You're paying for the materials, the time cost, and also it has to be worth the wait. If a scarf costs me fifteen dollars to make, can I afford to make ten of them for an etsy shop, and go without until I find a buyer? Especially with things that very few people would want, how many of that tiny market is willing to pay enough that you can make a profit? Its also opposed to things sold in a shop. You probably wouldn't pay yourself above bare necessities until you break even, but the things sold in franchise stores are usually four or five or six times the price of what the store actually paid for the item, hence why if its a cheap item it probably came from a sweatshop somewhere. I work in a thrift store and people get incredulous with prices of brand new items where my boss is only charging twice what she paid for. Things in a lot of stores do not reflect the actual cost of the item, things that do not involve exploitation will always cost more. I've felt terrible because I'm making a scarf for a friend, and when I do it for friends I'll charge at cost (in this case fifteen dollars) and maybe ask they make me cookies or something. I've already started what she wants, only to find out she wants me to do it at cost because there's a homemade store downtown that has the same scarf at 35 dollars, only I could tell they've used more expensive yarn than what I used. There's a similar non-profit store that will charge even more. Its like a photographer friend of mine who gets annoyed when people hire friends to do their weddings for cheap, you're stealing jobs away from professionals who do it to eat and live.

But at the end of the day, it beats flipping burgers or taking crap from bosses while you do all their work for them. Making it a job itself doesn't make it less enjoyable, what is less enjoyable is dealing with a public that is used to cheap goods on exploitative labour.
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:26 PM   #7338
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HoneyThorn.. would you be willing to make me a pair of antlers? I would love something like that for winter solstice.

I could pay you in TimTams.. or some other Australian delicacy you might be interested in...
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:02 AM   #7339
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That's not fair, it IS a costly business
That depends on what you are making. The stuff I make costs me almost nothing because I find most of it for free. If you choose to make something that costs a lot to produce that's your problem.

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the time cost
I am curious as to how you work out what you should be paid per hour. You make scarves yes? How did you work out how much a scarf maker ( as in not one who works in a sweatshop ) makes in order to pay yourself an average wage for that?



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If a scarf costs me fifteen dollars to make, can I afford to make ten of them for an etsy shop, and go without until I find a buyer? Especially with things that very few people would want, how many of that tiny market is willing to pay enough that you can make a profit?
Hold on... you're saying you ( or others ) make a product or items that appeal to a tiny market that very few people want.. and you're complaining that people may not be willing to buy something you chose to pay a lot to make? I don't really understand this.



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Its like a photographer friend of mine who gets annoyed when people hire friends to do their weddings for cheap, you're stealing jobs away from professionals who do it to eat and live.
And those people may not be able to afford the usually high costs of a professional. Those people could have worked their arses off to scrape together money for a wedding (remarkbaly not everyone asks or expects their parents to pay ) . If they can't afford your friends services then tough shit they can't afford it and that's that. If they have a friend who can take pictures, whose quality they are happy enough with to use them as wedding memories, then fair play to them . It's a shame your mate doesn't get the job but that's life .


I have seen a handmade sweater in a display window in town. It's made of soft wool in beautiful earthy tones, all multicoloured , very hippy-ish. But it's price is £100. I do appreciate it must have taken a long time to make , but all the same I absolutely refuse to spend that much money on a sweater. I have more important things to spend that kind of money on. Like rent, food and trying to accumulate savings.

I don't know about the US or Canade but the UK is still somewhat in recession, and people including myself simply don't have that kind of money to spend on a single sweater. It's a shame for the person who spent such time and effort making it, but they chose to make an expensive sweater, and thus can't really complain that no one has bought it. or that they haven't sold loads of them.


Likewise I saw an amazing horned head-dress on Etsy, it's about £300 ish. Real furs and real red deer antlers. But sorry, I refuse to pay that much because again I have better things to spend the money on, and I know full well I could ( and have ) made something of the same nature ( though smaller as you see below ) for almost nothing. I have no idea where the poor woman sourced her "materials" but she got a shitty deal there if it cost her so much she has to charge so high a price.

A head-dress like that is not that difficult to make even if screwed on properly . Mine took me about an hour.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:24 AM   #7340
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HoneyThorn.. would you be willing to make me a pair of antlers? I would love something like that for winter solstice.

I could pay you in TimTams.. or some other Australian delicacy you might be interested in...
I don't have any more white antlers I'm afraid. White deer aren't too common , I got lucky there

I DO have another pair of same size antlers though, just in the usual natural brown. Would they do?

Also that headband is the only sort like it I have been able to find suitable for this, and they were all cream So again I'm limited by what I can get my mitts on.

Would a cream and brown colour scheme be ok? I have some nice brown feathers from an almond pheasant that would go with it, and tons of vintage bunny fur.

Yes? No?


Also you're in Australia? I thought they were incredibly strict about allowing biological materials into the country? I knew someone who had a necklace made of seed pods, which though not a single pod contained a seed or had any sort of growing power, she was not allowed to bring it into the country when she went there.

Surely they would never allow deer antlers and bunny fur through customs? Or would they?
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:33 PM   #7341
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Oh.. I didn't even think about customs. I was too excited about the idea of having antlers.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:36 PM   #7342
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Thank you anyways, HoneyThorn.

They would possibly be ok with the antlers but I imagine the bunny for would be a huge no-no. We don't have a lot of diseases here because of the tight border control when it comes to importing animal and plant products (for instance, we don't have rabies here at all..). There is the option to have things irradiated to kill off any potential bio-hazards, but I believe that's quite and expensive process.
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:18 PM   #7343
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That depends on what you are making. The stuff I make costs me almost nothing because I find most of it for free. If you choose to make something that costs a lot to produce that's your problem.
True, but you've already admitted you don't do a quality job, and you don't always use free materials anyway, just when you can.


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I am curious as to how you work out what you should be paid per hour. You make scarves yes? How did you work out how much a scarf maker ( as in not one who works in a sweatshop ) makes in order to pay yourself an average wage for that?
I had a discussion about this with a friend of mine who makes Christmas bulbs. For her, she calculated she only made about three dollars an hour making them (minimum wage here is ten dollars an hour). For the rainbow scarves I make, if I charge twenty five for it, I'm making 1.66 an hour. I'd have to charge 75 dollars if I wanted to make minimum wage.


Quote:
Hold on... you're saying you ( or others ) make a product or items that appeal to a tiny market that very few people want.. and you're complaining that people may not be willing to buy something you chose to pay a lot to make? I don't really understand this.
If there is profit to be be made, why not? You can, for example, make a ton of money off of making family heirloom quilts. But unless its a commission, you might be waiting a while before someone has hundreds of dollars to drop on it.

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And those people may not be able to afford the usually high costs of a professional. Those people could have worked their arses off to scrape together money for a wedding (remarkbaly not everyone asks or expects their parents to pay ) . If they can't afford your friends services then tough shit they can't afford it and that's that. If they have a friend who can take pictures, whose quality they are happy enough with to use them as wedding memories, then fair play to them . It's a shame your mate doesn't get the job but that's life .
If its a tiny wedding, I can see it, but I've definitely seen big elaborate weddings with terrible photos because they figured they could spend more on something else like a better wedding dress than a photographer, because a lot of people seem to think photography is something anybody can do. I think my friend has the same attitude about the scarf, she can afford it, but she doesn't understand why handmade things are priced the way they are.

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I have seen a handmade sweater in a display window in town. It's made of soft wool in beautiful earthy tones, all multicoloured , very hippy-ish. But it's price is £100. I do appreciate it must have taken a long time to make , but all the same I absolutely refuse to spend that much money on a sweater. I have more important things to spend that kind of money on. Like rent, food and trying to accumulate savings.
But if you want all clothes handmade and/or fair trade, don't bitch about the price, that's what you're paying for. There's a store here that gets all of its clothes from fair trade shops in over-exploited countries, why bitch about the price when you're going into it knowing that it actually reflects the cost? And I get it, I'm poor and I buy my clothes second hand, but a lot of new clothes stores WITH sweat shop work will charge even more than that. There's a lot of stores here where you can drop 200 dollars on a single clothing item easily. There's a lot of people with money to drop.

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I don't know about the US or Canade but the UK is still somewhat in recession, and people including myself simply don't have that kind of money to spend on a single sweater. It's a shame for the person who spent such time and effort making it, but they chose to make an expensive sweater, and thus can't really complain that no one has bought it. or that they haven't sold loads of them.
Again, its not really that the materials are that expensive, in that regard she probably spend thirty dollars. It probably took whoever made it a very long time to do it, however, and there are people who really do like handmade things and are willing to pay for it. But then you got assholes who don't know anything about the handmade market who will complain.

Don't get me wrong, I've seen shit things on etsy (mainly through regretsy), that should not be the price that it is, but if I'm looking for handmade its either make my own or suck it up.

Quote:
Likewise I saw an amazing horned head-dress on Etsy, it's about £300 ish. Real furs and real red deer antlers. But sorry, I refuse to pay that much because again I have better things to spend the money on, and I know full well I could ( and have ) made something of the same nature ( though smaller as you see below ) for almost nothing. I have no idea where the poor woman sourced her "materials" but she got a shitty deal there if it cost her so much she has to charge so high a price.

A head-dress like that is not that difficult to make even if screwed on properly . Mine took me about an hour.

But again, who would buy it? Every time I take a class that talks about neopaganism, research is brought up that most neopagans are white middle class, and if you've been around places with new age stores, quite a bit of money is made in that market if there's enough of them around. Maybe cosplayers, but cosplaying is an expensive hobby anyway. The market, while tiny, typically has money to blow, and has quite the consumerist aspect.
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Old 12-15-2012, 08:06 AM   #7344
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But again, who would buy it? Every time I take a class that talks about neopaganism, research is brought up that most neopagans are white middle class

STOP. What research was that massively sweeping idea taken from ? how many pagan incomes were studied exactly?

I seriously hope it wasn't based as per your example, on how many stores selling hippy mats, mass mined crystals and incense a town or city has and who shops there ( far less actual pagans than you would imagine)


There was one such store in my town. It has closed down because there was no demand for what it sold. Because there is a recession on, and you can get everything you need for most practices under a bush, off a tree, or dig it up. As a member of a witchcraft forum whose members come from all over the world, I can assure you that nearly all of them have mentioned on some thread or other, that they do not shop in such stores due to the shit they sell, that you can find or make yourself to better effect.

I go to one the UK's largest pagan gatherings every year and encounter hundreds of people of the same mindset . There are a limited number of stalls at this event selling items, few of them are overpriced. The horns in the picture below came from that gathering. They were 6 pounds a pair if I recall. I also bought a hand made cow horn ring pendant for a tenner. there were unpolished raw cow horns for sale cheaply, for people to carve and polish themselves.

I only buy such things when, as with cow horn and deer antlers, they are not locally available to me ( the cattle on farms here are not horned, the countryside is not of the type that can support herds of deer for very long )


As for the people who attend it ( a thousand every year ) Sorry but they are not middle class and certainly not all white. Perhaps things are different in the US? Then again, Native American beliefs technically fall under the broad umbrella of paganism, as does Hinduism . Neither of whose followers are generally white , and of all classes.
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:19 AM   #7345
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Fankyou ^^

Just hot glue and fine fishing line I drilled into the base of each horn once on each side. As best I could with a piddly Dremel with a not too great drill bit.

Couldn't get all the way through so I had to leave the holes as they were, and squirt hot glue into each little hole, then jam the end of the line in there and smear the still hot and squidgy glue over it to seal the end in.

Then I sort of wove the line through the knitted holes of the headband, and hooked it into the crevices and knobbles of the antler bases. Just round and round then seal the other end with more glue. The whole lot is hidden by the bunny fur.

Sewing those bloody pearl beads onto every spot where the knit forms a little knot was a right pain in the arse . Worth it in the end though
Totally agree it was worth it. Thanks for the info. Next time I'm having trouble with a craft project I'll raid the fishing line and hot glue gun.
xo


MissA - yeah you'd never get it through customs. Although I believe you can bring in wood, as long as it's been turned into something, but I doubt antlers would be permitted. Maybe find a local deer farm and get some there?
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:33 AM   #7346
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Old 12-16-2012, 01:50 AM   #7347
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You're so cute, PJ.

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STOP. What research was that massively sweeping idea taken from ? how many pagan incomes were studied exactly?

I seriously hope it wasn't based as per your example, on how many stores selling hippy mats, mass mined crystals and incense a town or city has and who shops there ( far less actual pagans than you would imagine)

We don't have one here, and a professor of mine studies neopagans and
There was one such store in my town. It has closed down because there was no demand for what it sold. Because there is a recession on, and you can get everything you need for most practices under a bush, off a tree, or dig it up. As a member of a witchcraft forum whose members come from all over the world, I can assure you that nearly all of them have mentioned on some thread or other, that they do not shop in such stores due to the shit they sell, that you can find or make yourself to better effect.
Funny, I looked into converting as a teenager but couldn't afford anything, and there's nothing but pine as far as the eye can see. Didn't have any access to what a lot of pagans said you required. Buddhism was the cheaper way to go XD

Anyway, that was just anecdotal. We have a lot of pagans here but no shop. For demographics, I can't post class notes or text books, and if you have library access to academic journals on folklore and religion that's a good place to start, this is the only one that I can find available online without it.

http://72.32.3.66/bitstream/handle/1...pdf?sequence=1

Online I've only ever came across one study that came up with different results, but for the most part articles recount that most neopagans (as I shall define for you below) are pretty well off. And it would be due to note that a recession doesn't mean that everyone is poor and can't afford shit, its more helpful to keep in mind that who were already struggling were the worst hit to begin with while the more wealthy are doing more okay. And because you can find things cheap, doesn't mean everyone else is willing to be more thrifty and won't buy expensive elaborate things, if it didn't sell at all you wouldn't be seeing them and wouldn't be complaining about it.

Quote:
As for the people who attend it ( a thousand every year ) Sorry but they are not middle class and certainly not all white. Perhaps things are different in the US? Then again, Native American beliefs technically fall under the broad umbrella of paganism, as does Hinduism . Neither of whose followers are generally white , and of all classes.
Only if you take "pagan" to mean "not Christian, Muslim or Jew," which it very rarely is used as, typically it would refer to pre-Christian religions of Europe. Neopaganism (and the New Age movement at large) very much developed out of more socially elite groups to begin with and are typically Euro-centric, hence why most are white, unless you include the more New Age focus on indigenous religions but I wouldn't historically include that since it developed out of aboriginal reconstruction efforts independent of the neopagan and new age movement, and then some white new agers got involved and appropriated a lot, which not few aboriginal folks find offensive (some groups welcome white people, but reconstructionists and the Pan-Indian movement typically don't) Neither Natives nor Hindus consider themselves "pagans" and as far as I can tell academic study of neopaganism focuses on the Euro-centric movement; druids, wiccans, heathens, etc. Some heathen groups of course are white supremist and not surprisingly overwhelmingly white in that regard.

The distinction is that neopagans have emerged as a sort of European reconstructionist religious movement, invented new religions out of popular memory of old religions and are very eclectic. Native American religions, Hinduism, Voodoo, etc, are living traditions that weren't entirely broken (like east coast natives may have lost their own traditions, but may borrow from Sioux traditions as part of a Pan-Indian movement). That said, neopagans sometimes appropriate from those religions, like there's a druid group in the states that says its fine to just pick any pantheon to worship regardless of culture or context, like the Hindu pantheon (to which other druid groups seem to hotly protest). Certainly there are people of colour and poor people in the neopagan movement, but they are minority.

Anyway, that's a longwinded way of saying, pagans tend not to be poor so online particularly, you can probably make money in the market and even get away with expensive prices.
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Old 12-16-2012, 04:30 AM   #7348
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Thank you anyways, HoneyThorn.

They would possibly be ok with the antlers but I imagine the bunny for would be a huge no-no. We don't have a lot of diseases here because of the tight border control when it comes to importing animal and plant products (for instance, we don't have rabies here at all..). There is the option to have things irradiated to kill off any potential bio-hazards, but I believe that's quite and expensive process.
That really sucks but due to the ecosystem there I guess it's nessecary.

Then again Australia has a large and unfortunate wild rabbit problem. I know they have to cull them extensively ( I do hope the meat gets used ? ) so I think perhaps getting bunny skin your end shouldn't be too problematic if you ask the appropriate people/authorities. You may even get them free if you know anyone who helps with the culling, though you may have to look up how to cure it yourself.


Antlers ..well I don't recall Australia having any species of deer but you may be able to find some decent lightweight replicas somewhere, or mould them out of fimo?

If you do decide to try and make your own I will happily help with advice if the way i described making mine is too vauge? They're not that hard at all really. just fiddly in places is all.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:52 PM   #7349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honeythorn View Post
That really sucks but due to the ecosystem there I guess it's nessecary.

Then again Australia has a large and unfortunate wild rabbit problem. I know they have to cull them extensively ( I do hope the meat gets used ? ) so I think perhaps getting bunny skin your end shouldn't be too problematic if you ask the appropriate people/authorities. You may even get them free if you know anyone who helps with the culling, though you may have to look up how to cure it yourself.


Antlers ..well I don't recall Australia having any species of deer but you may be able to find some decent lightweight replicas somewhere, or mould them out of fimo?

If you do decide to try and make your own I will happily help with advice if the way i described making mine is too vauge? They're not that hard at all really. just fiddly in places is all.


We have deer both wild and farmed. Bunnies aren't a problem, just go out at night, or into the bush - there's heaps of them there.

Deer aren't native - they were introduced way back in the day (I believe). And I think from memory we have a million or so feral camels.
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Old 12-17-2012, 12:17 AM   #7350
Solumina
 
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I think the frustration that Saya was trying to express comes from people wanting high quality handmade goods for Walmart prices, something that I have certainly experienced. It comes not from people being unable or unwilling to buy the items but from people refusing to see any value in the work done or the time spent.

I make jewelry, recently I have also started doing macrame accessories, there are tons of people who see me wearing something that I made who practically beg me to make something for them only to balk at my prices. Even after I explain to people that I'm charging less than minimum wage for time spent on the project most people demand to pay next to nothing "I could just get it cheaper in a shop" and then they look confused when I suggest that they do just that as if I should be grateful for the opportunity to sell them something at cost.



Anyways on Saturday Jake and I went to The Great Dickens Christmas Fair in San Francisco. We didn't take too many pictures but Jake did snap a couple after I got my hair done.




My expression and posture are a bit weird as Jake insisted on taking pictures while I was still stretching my neck after holding my head very still while it was being braided but I'm quite happy with the braid (which is still very much intact, other than the flower and such stuck in it) and the fair was great fun, even if I wanted loads of pretty things that were far out of my price range.
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