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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 10-16-2005, 06:06 PM   #126
edible_eye
 
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oh. i remember something about that presentation. don't remember much, but i do remember when it caused about fifteen seconds worth of discussion in the news.
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Old 10-16-2005, 07:15 PM   #127
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Loy I am saying as far as when you debate ANYONE, as in my personal experience I am refering to gnet. I am not debating morals, I am debating tact when have political arguments.

An example being this last election. If someone wanted a bumper sticker for W (and I had them all) they would just get a sticker with his and Cheney's names on them.

The Dems, however, chose to play on words like Bush and Dick. Fine in a group of likeminded adults who enjoy that type of humor (and I do) but how many children were in cars with their parents, saw that, then asked it to be explained? On that issue, my side took the high road, and they one.

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Old 10-18-2005, 04:30 PM   #128
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Kind of like "Sore Loserman"?

And as far as the tact thing is concerned.....my problem whenever I hear somebody calling out for more "tact" (and I'm not saying the Repubs are the only guilty party here, but they are the most blatant about it), what they're really calling out for is for things not to go "too far"....or at least far enough where their own faults are exposed. (The obvious example is the "blame game"). I understand a certain amount of respect (which is something completely different from tact), but when tact is used for obfuscation purposes, then it's complete BS.

The other problem with "tact" is how it's used to "prove" one opponents moral superiority over another, and in the case of this bunch of Neocons in the White House, it's a completely false one. I mean, just because you're polite about how you say "fags are subhuman" doesn't make it any less hateful. (And I brought up the "fag" issue because that was the big reason so many people voted for Bush. In other words, Kerry didn't lose because he seemed the lesser of a leader compared to Bush, but because he didn't hate fags and dykes as much as Bush did.)

So, whenever a Repub calls a Dem "crude", "tactless", etc, I just wanna smack 'em continuously screaming "fu cking hypocrite!!!" As I said earlier, if you ain't gonna call both sides on it (especially if the side happens to be your own), then you're argument is based on an untruthful point of view.


(btw, you know I ain't attacking you as a person, right? I still loves you like a cousin.....a cousin I need to bring up here to meet BC)
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Old 10-19-2005, 11:47 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empty_Purple_Stars
...And as to your suggestion that we should have pulled out of Iraq by now..
We started the conflict, we have no choice now but to see it through to the end, Bitter or otherwise..
To do less, would be Undiluted Cowardice...
Simple as that...
There won't be an end. The government that's there now is being held up and guided by our government. Like a puppet on a string. Unless the US plans on staying there permenantly, then almost as soon as they finally pull out, whether its next year or ten years from now, the 'democracy' that's been put in place will start to crumble, and crumble quickly. Those people don't understand democracy. Its not something they can comprehend. Even in the other, less tyranical arabic nations, they simply do not understand democracy. They'll play along and pretend they're getting it, and maybe a few of them really do get it, but as soon as the US leaves, everything will start to go to shit. I'm not saying this to deliberately slant the arabic people, I'm just speaking from what I've witnessed first-hand. I lived in the middle east for three years, and until you live there day after day for an extended period of time, dealing with them on a constant, daily basis, in a civilian setting, you'll never really understand how they operate. I had several arabic friends who were very much 'westernized', who spoke english fluently, without even so much as an accent, who went to american, canadian or british schools, who worked for american companies, and even they didn't truly comprehend democracy. In order to truly change their government you have to change their society, and that's not something that can happen in a handfull of years, if ever.
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Old 10-20-2005, 09:34 PM   #130
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There won't be an end. The government that's there now is being held up and guided by our government. Like a puppet on a string. Unless the US plans on staying there permenantly, then almost as soon as they finally pull out, whether its next year or ten years from now, the 'democracy' that's been put in place will start to crumble, and crumble quickly. Those people don't understand democracy. Its not something they can comprehend. Even in the other, less tyranical arabic nations, they simply do not understand democracy. They'll play along and pretend they're getting it, and maybe a few of them really do get it, but as soon as the US leaves, everything will start to go to shit. I'm not saying this to deliberately slant the arabic people, I'm just speaking from what I've witnessed first-hand. I lived in the middle east for three years, and until you live there day after day for an extended period of time, dealing with them on a constant, daily basis, in a civilian setting, you'll never really understand how they operate. I had several arabic friends who were very much 'westernized', who spoke english fluently, without even so much as an accent, who went to american, canadian or british schools, who worked for american companies, and even they didn't truly comprehend democracy. In order to truly change their government you have to change their society, and that's not something that can happen in a handfull of years, if ever.
It's interesting how you speculate in absolutes.

The US does indeed plan to be there for a very long period... with a few bases. Not sure if you heard about this or not, but the Defense Department is completely restationing it's bases around the globe to be centered around the Middle East as opposed to all over Eastern Europe (which was appropriate for the Cold War, but does us no good today). So there will be US presence there for years upon years to come, even after our main withdraw.

Interesting that they can't comprehend democracy when all the major groups took part in rallying and voting on the Iraqi Charter this time around, including Sunnis. That the percentage of registered voters who took part in that was even greater than that which took part in the 2004 US Presidential Elections here. That, right there, says they understand democracy more than Americans do.

There are many people in oppressive countries such as Saudi Arabia, such as Egypt who very much understand what Democracy is about in the same way that there were people in former Soviet Republics who understood what Democracy was all about. Look at Ukraine today. Look at the Czech Republic. So now you saying arabs are incapable of understanding democracy is something akin to an old southerner saying, "Why give those people (i.e. African Americans) their freedom? They wouldn't know what to do with it."
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Old 11-22-2005, 12:06 AM   #131
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LOOK ITS GEORGE BUSH AND JOHN HOWARD!

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Old 11-22-2005, 09:06 AM   #132
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Loy I missed your post.

I stand by what I said.

You lost because of many reasons, one being people had enough of media and entertainers who are supposed to be unbiased (unless you go to say Joan Baez) and tired of the crudeness that your side demonstrated. No, there were zero Republican bumper stickers with tasteless jokes, there wasn't an uproar at a Republican fundraiser like there was for Kerry because of inappropriate humor that offended many (see actor Ron Silver) and to say that Bush won because our side "hates fags" is a cheap shot and it is not based on any concrete evidence.

Republicans did not protest at the Democratic convention, nor did they stage protests when Clinton was elected. They dominated Congress and Newt cleaned up the deficit that Clinton took credit for.

And I hear a hundred reasons why Bush lost, one of the funniest being "well he went against a weak opponent" well then WHO THE FUCK NOMINATED HIM? I say rather than make excuses, hundreds of excuses, the Democrats concede (and not cry like Barbara Boxer, yeah THAT'S leadership) and go about your business as opposed to being...what was that...Sore Loserman? I never saw Binkie or I or others make threads about Kerry or any time a GOP'er supposedly screwed up, we came out and posted in defense of all the bullshit here.
Sorry dude, you are a bud, but here you are wrong, my party maintains it's pride and civil behavior. Dems used to do that before the leftovers from the 60's and 70's, the protesters who spit on soldiers as they came off the plane, soldiers who were drafted and had no choice but to go where they were told, infiltrated the party. Spitting, throwing shit at speakers who they disagree with, and unruly protests, protests in general, is the liberal Democrat way...not a Democrat or Republican thing. Period.

And with that I depart this section of the board.
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