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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 11-25-2005, 05:04 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlKilyu
Sorry Loy (and Mael) she's absolutely right.

Just as I say with another visitor to the Politics thread, just because you know someone from every single country on earth, that does not make you an expert. Bang and befriend all the forigeners you want, you cannot convince me that you're opinion is more valid because you "know this guy from that land", etc.
She definitely has a point, but she's by no means right.

Experience is entirely subjective. One person can say one thing, another can say another. Not living somewhere can't be the only reason for attempting to debunk a person's point of view. If someone can make an attempt at objectivity, learn the fact from both sides and THEN come to a relatively sound conclusion, I'd say they have the better hand in the matter. I've chosen neither side, nor do I ever plan to choose one.

The thing is, and there's always a thing, both sides have shit to sort. Whoever tells you that one is good and the other is in the wrong obviously doesn't know what's going on. I'm tired of these ideas of right and wrong, good and bad, good and evil. If two sides are both fighting for something they believe is right and good, there's obviously miscommunication occuring.

I'd say more, but... I have no desire to get into too many debates at once.
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Old 11-25-2005, 09:06 PM   #27
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You can agree to disagree no doubt. You can't tell someone you're opinion is the correct one, you can argue your side.

And you can do it without attacking the person themselves.
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Old 11-25-2005, 09:39 PM   #28
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I don't believe either Loy, nor Mael, said outright that their views were correct. All Loy did, initially, was discredit the initial post of this thread to pointing out that only one of the two sides' perspectives was represented.

As for you stating that you can't tell someone that your opinion is the correct one...

Quote:
Originally Posted by helena
u can't judge us until u actualy lived here, and don't act all condecending and scynical and tell me that that's bullshit.
I'll leave you to contemplate the relevance of me quoting that.
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Old 11-26-2005, 12:05 AM   #29
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Granted Mael did not, I concied that, however

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loy
In other words, fuck you and fuck your shrillness. Have a nice day.
Also note that she is 16 AND LIVES THERE and said

Quote:
Originally Posted by helena
I dont want to die when im only 16!
...she has a vested interest, her own life, as oppossed to having pity for the side that wasn't helped by "Teh Dreaded America!" or whatever other reason may apply.

She wasn't saying her opinion was correct because she lives there, she was asking how the hell they can have such strong opinions.

It's one thing for two sides to be debating something thousands of miles away that affects neither one of them, but when someone comes in and says "Hey I live here and here is how I view things since I live it everyday.", and considering she is 16, I would expect...well I guess I don't expect much in that sense anymore.

She is umpteenth generations into that place. She did not choose to live there. Alot of people pity Palestine because they are the minority which is bullshit when you consider the ENTIRE REGION that surrounds Isreal sides with them and HATES Isreal. She runs the risk of being maimed or killed just simply getting on a bus to go somewhere and don't, just don't do the whole "Well then consider what it's like for the poor Pale--" no. Innocent civilians are innocent civilians regardless of you agreeing with their goverment.
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Old 11-26-2005, 05:20 AM   #30
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Exactly, but somehow, the very threat posed to these "innocent civilians" on both sides of this conflict makes them so desensitized to the plight of the other, that any thought for the lives of the "innocent civilian" on the opposing side doesn't even enter the equation (as Helena aptly demonstrated).

As for living or not living there... geez,,, that really was a well thought out point.
Lemme tell you why I do not agree:

We wouldn't have peace talks just about everywhere (like Cairo just now), road maps in the Balkans and Middle East, talks in N.Korea, military U.N. operations in Afghanistan and such, if we (as outsiders) didn't feel that although not suffering directly, can perceive the issue from a rationally detached point of view (as opposed to one clouded by prejudice, fear, pain and hatred) and be a buffer between the two sides to make them try to adjust (which I admit is the only valid arguement for the existance of troops in Iraq [but it didn't have to be this way]).
Let us completely close dipomatic relations with every country.
After all, what's the point of talking to those people.
We do not live there.
How the fuck can we communicate?
It's not like they can love, hate, speak, eat, fuck, shit, learn, drive, breathe and do things like we do...

I mean, drop the rethoric there for a moment, and you'll realize that if the arguement of not living in a place were valid... shit man, I don't have to live in Israel and Palestine to see that ALL of those people hate and fear eachother to such a degree that its near impossible from diverting BOTH into a spiral of endless violence.

When was the last time someone here did a search on human rights abuses?
It's hell out there, and not just where she is. And we have and have had members here (Samuel and formerly Gipsy) who were and are at arms length LITERALLY, and it doesn't stop them from trying to help as much as they can the very people that spawn/shelter/feed the enemies who would have them killed. She will never patrol an area with a palestinian, but US kids (yes, kids) are dying in Iraq with the notion in their idealistic, heroic heads, that they're not only helping out the iraqui people, not only protecting their own country, but attempting to create seeds of democracy that could lead to peace in the entire region (including the area where the 16 year-old deaf and blind lives).
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Old 11-26-2005, 02:35 PM   #31
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I wouldn't use the term detached, Mael, since you were able to bring up Iraq in yet another thread, and were it any other country besides America, I doubt we'd see such bias.

That CD is stuck on the same track.
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Old 11-26-2005, 05:04 PM   #32
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Exactly. All the times that I believe the Russian-Chechen conflict has come up in discussion here, Mael was no where to be found talking about atrocities against Mulsims and getting off topic by bringing up other conflicts Moscow currently has a role in. So yeah, "detached" means absolutely nothing if you still carry extreme "outside prejudice" towards a third-party country involved in the conflict, which, in many cases, serves as the only explanation for a person's real interest in even debating a certain issue/conflict.
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Old 11-26-2005, 05:28 PM   #33
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This is getting a bit carried away.

Living in a place creates as much bias as being an outsider, perhaps even more so. I'm not going to try to support the latter portion of that claim, I just happen to know that all forms of patriotism to which I've been exposed have never been justified.

Yes, that goes for Americans, Canadians, Europeans, Asians, Australians, and particularly Antarcticans. I haven't seen much representation from Africans and South Americans, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it would be reflected similarily (though I have no desire to stake my reputation on it...whatever reputation it is that I have).

So, that leaves me saying this: On this particular issue, I have chosen no side over the other, and I've tried my best to understand the perspectives of each side as far as the culture and religion are concerned. I personally have concluded that no side is clearly right or wrong. If somebody came into my house and told me that I was going to have to give up half of it to some other guy, I wouldn't care about what kind of hard times he'd fallen on; I'd be pretty pissed off about losing part of my house to someone else.

Suppose then that I tried to get my house back by getting my friends to help, but the home invader had some more powerful friends, etc. Now plug the historical context into this model and at least try to understand that perspective, despite my clumsy analogy.

I'm shakey with my history of the region while it was under Hebrew control prior to 1948 with the formation of Israel, but for those of you on the opposite end who likely have been informed on the matter, try inserting yourself into a case specific example (say it was a home that had been in your family for generations and suddenly somebody threatened your life if you remained there, or something to that effect) and seeing things from the opposite end.

It's sad that its come to bloodshed, even sadder that the nation of Israel even needed to be formed in the first place, but wouldn't it be nice if we could at least try to tame our biases as much as possible?

Perhaps I'll retouch what I've said thus far later down the line, but I hope I've at least presented a satisfactory statement.
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Old 11-27-2005, 01:37 PM   #34
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So sorry for my bias.

So there is nothing to link the Middle East conflict with Iraq and Afghanistan?

So there are all isolated events with absolutely nothing in common?

I'd say that that taking up arms and bombs while hiding behind the coran is related to all of them. Including the use of Palestine as an excuse for everything, from talibans to dictators and suicide bombers.

If not, why are we in Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo? Why aren't we in Chechenya?

Why are we part of a UN sanctioned NATO mission in Afghanistan and henchmen in Iraq?

The 1st portuguese soldier to die in conflict in over 10 years happened last week in the outskirts of Kabul, by remote detonation of a mine while the patrol vehicule passed over.

Not a peep out of me. Had it happened in Iraq, my attitude would differ.

You still are unable to see why?


Do I bring the focus of conversations to the US, or do you?
Step outside this specific thread and read the political thread titles.
How many of them are completely unrelated to the US?
How many of these threads did I start or actively participate in?
Oh, I remember starting one that read "Your/my country sucks" where I punched left and right, but I didn't spare my own either (nor did Pitseleh, but there is little to criticize in Norway. There's a lot to criticize in Portugal. But who cares?)

I mean, for crying out loud, I love Asurai and think he's a great kid, but doesn't the very start of this thread seem biased to you?
Doesn't any right-wing, republican, Bush supporter, mason, quacker, muslim, hebrew find something wrong at all? I did, so I posted some of my opinions on the issue (an oposing one, of course) and suddenly I'M biased?
Or maybe I just don't have a valid excuse for my bias and Helena does.

The terms and conditions of any resolution towards peace regarding this issue do pass through the US administration, do they not? So, again, the US is part of the issue at hand. So is Europe, but if we keep playing this parental figure/protegeé thing the US does with Israel and Europe with the Palestinian Authority, the two will never settle down.

I'm biased? Wheh was the last time that a member (other than Dis) argued both sides of things?

Anyway, Sunday night here, gonna go back to another weeks work tomorrow, at my cushy job for 550 euros a month (about the same US), but at least I got a job (for another 2 weeks or so), so I think I'll turn in.

Good night.
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Old 11-27-2005, 05:37 PM   #35
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Right, Iraq just had to be mentioned on this thread like it just had to be related to something on the Katrina thread... on the Jane Fonda thread... on the thread about china. Surprised that someone called you biased? Didn't you admit to being biased a while ago? And I remember when you mentioned that you were mostly open-minded, but that'd you'd bomb the Pentagon if given the chance.

Let's also take a look at the threads in this section that you've criticised the US government/administration in...

Jane Fonda, American Traitor Bitch
State of the States
Gothic Discrimination in School
Constitutional Rights
New World Order - INFOWARS.COM
Political Photoshop Thread
The Red Cross
Katrina and NOLA flood Politics
Lottery
Muslims and Middle Eastern Debate
War after war, whether is new one? HISTORY REPEATS
My/Your Country Blows (not as part of a joke)
Goddess Vs. Deus Ex-Machina
Jurors Convict Muslim Leader in Terrorism Case
Uncle Sam Goes to College
President
Gothic Politics
World Politics and Ethics
WMD Commission Releases Scathing Report
Newest School Shooting, Minn.
Very Conservative Views on Canada

Ok, now let's take a look at the threads you've praised or said the US government/adiministration got something right on....

....

So yeah, when I come to this thread, about a nation in the middle east and a terrorist organization, and see you criticising the US administration (being one of the first to even bring it up), I really can't say I'm surprised. Al can't say he's surprised. Anyone else who's followed your posts throughout this section for the last year or so can't say they're really surprised either. It's been clearly stated in this section alone (don't get me started on the bush and administration mentions OUTSIDE of the politics forum) that you're adverse to the ways of the US government and current administration. So when you bring them up in this very thread, relating them to the topic in anyway possible, then yeah, I'd say you're biased on the subject.

Especially if you see it just to compare the conflict to the war in Iraq, a war you flamboyantly oppose and criticise on any thread you see fit to.
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Old 11-27-2005, 08:42 PM   #36
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Hi All,

This is my first post in gothic.net: I want to briefly introduce myself: This is Ibn, and I live in the DC-area, and I am originally Palestinian, and I am 25 years old. (I came to the US when I was 18). Oh, and Im a dude.

I like to have discussions with people, but I want to respond/comment to Helena, who says she is from Israel.

Helena,

I am not anti-Jewish. I have nothing against the Jewish religion, or people as a religion or ethnicity, as some people see it. Needless to say, I have known plenty of Jews, and have been ripped off by plenty of others. haha! Just kidding - seriously though, I have nothing against Jews. I have had plenty of Jewish friends, ex-girlfriends, etc etc in the past.

I do, however, have ZERO sympathy, and ZERO tolerance for Zionists.
A Zionist, (and I have seen enough for them to know), is a person who will take your land and claim it for Jews because either:

a) God told Moses so.
b) The Romans kicked us out of Palestine.
c) The Nazis beat us up.
d) We made the desert bloom.

(or any combination of the above)

At the end of the day Helena, the Jews emigrated into Palestine after WWII because of the horrors of WWII. The British, as typical of them, promised both sides the same thing, and in 1947 told the UN to settle the account. The UN divided up the land.

Ill stop there, and ask by what right? Who gave the UN the right to say "Uhh, ok, you Jews go here, yeah you arabs need to go east, and umm...ok you arabs come here, make way for Steinburg...ok...." That by itself was an affront to begin with - if the UN came to Israel tomorrow and asked you, Helena, give Haifa to Egypt, what would you tell them? Exactly. So you cannot use that argument.

-------------------------

Helena, if the Jews wanted to come to Palestine after the Germans burned them in ovens, by all means! I can sympathize with that! My grandmother is from Haifa, and she knew plenty of Jewish neighbours, and they used to come over for the holidays. I can sympathize with the Jewish rationale of "We have been persecuted for ages, we need to steer our own ship". I totally sympathize with that - but never, never, will I sympathise with that when you step on my toes to do it Helena!

That is my problem with Israel. Helena, I have ZERO problem with having you as a neighbour, a friend, or even a fuck buddy if you're hot enough. heh - Hey, listen - you want to know what Im all about? Chillin under the Mediterranean beach, hitting on girls left and right with some Arak in one hand and a girl in another! Seriously!

If the Jews and us lived side by side, under one nation, going about our lives, that would be great Helena! Sadly, at least 50% of the problem, is your government. It is Zionist, and since Zionists believe in taking your land by any means, since the means justify the ends, then I can never stand for this.
The Israeli government...no - the Israeli CONSTITUTION, tells you that the nation can never have a Jewish minority. Can you imagine if Bush came on TV tomorrow and said "America, we have a problem - the blacks are too many". Can you imagine? And you call yourselves a free country? heh...I mean...its almost funny! Who are you fooling? And before you turn this on me and say "yes but look at the PA" - yes, I have my fair share of harsh words for them too, but we are talking about YOUR country right now.

Let me put it to you in simpler words:

If a Jewish refugee came to me and said "Please help me, the Nazis have persecuated us", I will put down my shovel, and take them in as my own family, defend them as my own family, and love them as my own family - your guest pass NEVER expires, and is written in my blood - I would defend you, and the Jewish family with MY blood.

But if a Jewish refugee comes to me as the Irgun and Palmach did, kicking us out of OUR homes, as they did to my grandmother in Haifa, and killing the resistors because they happen to be of the wrong ethnicity, (sound familiar?) then you have a problem. In that case Helena, your guest pass to this world HAS expired, and it would be written in YOUR blood.

Unfortunately, your government chose the latter.

La Chaim.
-Ibn
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Old 11-28-2005, 09:50 AM   #37
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Thank you for the input, Bin Laid. Now go and introduce yourself in the "Introduce yourself here" thread and read the "newbies" thread as well for further info on our rules.


As for my bias: report me! I'm sure that if I'm all that biased, I'll be kicked out (happened to other mods, I don't see why it won't happen to me).


As for the quoted threads and issues as they regard the US administration: I stand by my words. I consider that the US administration has an important role to play on all those issues and I also believe it not to be doing its share (when not making things worse).


Bombing the Pentagon?
Yup. I stand by that as well (I'd give about 30 min prior warning to evacuate civ...oops). I'll go even further and include Lockheed and a little oraganization with headquarters in Langdon, VA. Howzat?

Praise for the US administration????
Regarding what? What have they single-handedly done right recently?

I can't think of a single thing that isn't a follow-up of previous administrations (like the road map that was thought up in a minute when Bush finally realized that peace between Israel/Palestine can't happen without the US - something the whole wide world already knew for ages.)

Let's see, aid and rescue in NOLA? Nope.

Elections in Afghanistan? Its a UN mission.

Elections in Iraq? Nope. The former president already said today that things are just as bad or worse in Iraq than when Saddam was in power (are those harsh words or what?)


Kyoto Agreements? Nope

Nope. I can't really think of a single thing done right by the US administration.

Now, if you want to talk about Us citizens and NGO's, I got plenty of good things done everywhere in the world by americans that isn't connected to the US administration.
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Old 11-28-2005, 01:44 PM   #38
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Yeah, tough time finding accomplishments... like oh say, the fact that all hospitals and 95% of all Iraq clinics are open, there are now 170 free newspapers in circulation within Iraq, there are 5.1 million Iraqi children back in school, more Iraqis are applying for college, there's more power being generated throughout Iraq than before the war,

- Awarded 627 grants worth more than $6 million to rehabilitate schools and equip Directorates General
- Rehabilitated 2,510 schools countrywide
- Distributed desks, chairs, cabinets, chalkboards, and kits to primary and secondary schools
- Printed and distributed 8.7 million revised math and science textbooks to grades 1-12 by mid-February 2004
-Trained nearly 33,000 secondary school teachers (17,513 women) and administrators, including 860 master trainers (264 women), nationwide
-Conducted an accelerated learning program in five cities to allow out-of-school children to complete two school years in one year. More than 550 students participated in the program
-Through university partnerships, more than 1,400 Iraqi faculty and students at 10 Iraqi universities have participated in workshops, trainings, conferences, and courses in Iraq, the Middle East, Europe, and the United States
-Vaccinated over 3.2 million children under five and 700,000 pregnant women with vaccination campaigns and monthly immunization days
-Provided supplementary doses of vitamin A for more than 600,000 children under two and 1.5 million lactating mothers, and iron folate supplements for over 1.6 million women of childbearing age
-Screened more than 1.3 million children under five for malnutrition and distributed high protein biscuits to more than 450,000 children and 200,000 pregnant and nursing mothers
- Provided potable water for 500,000 persons each day in Basrah, Kirkuk, and Mosul
-Repaired 1,700 breaks in Baghdad's water distribution network, rehabilitated water treatment facilities in four governorates, and repaired over 100 sewage pumping stations, rainwater stations and collapsed sewer lines in 6 governorates
- Procured supplies to service water treatment facilities in Baghdad and other cities
-Provided skills training for 2,500 primary health care providers and 700 physicians. Trained 2,000 health educators, teachers, religious leaders and youth to mobilize communities on hygiene, diarrhea, breastfeeding, nutrition and immunization issues
-Renovated 110 primary health care centers and provided basic clinical and laboratory equipment to support the delivery of essential primary health care services to 600 primary health care centers
- Provided vaccines and cold chain equipment to selected remote health centers
- Developed a national plan for fortification of wheat flour with iron and folic acid
- Re-established the national disease surveillance system
-Restored water treatment service to 4.0 million, and sewage treatment to 7.7 million
- Demolished and rebuilt three heavily communited bridges that were on the verge of collapse from prewar conditions.
- Performed emergency repairs to the national fiber optic network from Mosul to Umm Qasr, connecting 20 cities to Baghdad and 70 percent of Iraqis that have landline telephone accounts
-Purchased tools, equipment, and parts and provided management oversight to assist ITPC in the restoration of the fiber optic network.
- Replaced obsolete transmission equipment between Baghdad and Basrah in collaboration with the ITPC
- Reconstituted Baghdad area phone service by installing switches with 240,000 lines at 12 sites
-In total, USAID installed 12 domestic switches and one international switch, fully integrating the new equipment with the existing switches. The switches provide connection points for ITPC to connect subscribers
- Installed a satellite gateway system and restored international calling service in December 2003
-Trained ITPC engineers and technicians in the operation and maintenance of the satellite gateway system and the new telephone switches
-Added 855 megawatts (MW) of new capacity to the electrical grid
- Reconstructed the 400 KV Khor az Zubayr-Nasiriyah transmission line
-Initiated a project to rehabilitate 13 existing substations and construct 24 new substations in Baghdad to improve distribution reliability for more than two million Baghdad residents
- Drafting privatization law; strengthening the Iraqi Privatization Commission.
- Engaged with Ministry of Trade to achieve WTO accession.
- Working to establish and officially adopt modern accounting and financial reporting standards
- SME lending program and partnerships developed; 3 banks selected; 30 bankers trained
- Trained 80 lending officers in microfinance best practices
-Worked with the Ministry of Finance to introduce the new Iraqi dinar. An estimated 6.36 trillion new dinar are now in Iraq; 4.62 trillion are circulating
-Provided technical support for the re-opening of the Iraq Stock Exchange after it was closed for more than 15 months; 3.6 billion dinar ($2.4 million USD) in shares were traded the first day
-Provided technical assistance on accounting, budgeting and lending activities at Iraq's commercial banks and improved statistical analysis, monetary policymaking and bank supervision procedures at Iraq's Central Bank
- Evaluated and updated commercial laws on private sector and foreign investment
-Assisted in developing the reconstruction levy in collaboration with the CPA and the United Kingdom Customs Service; the levy imposes a 5 percent tariff on imports
-Developed a government-wide strategy to support the automation of planning, budgeting and reporting processes across ministries, including the creation of a Financial Management Information System (FMIS), a new accounting and reporting system for all Iraqi ministries
- Provided technical assistance and information on contracting opportunities for Iraqi businesses through business centers
-Providing rapid and appropriate humanitarian assistance to people suddenly displaced by increased conflict or natural disaster
-Working to ensure the safe return of "old case load" IDPs to their communities in non-contentious areas, especially among the Kurdish population (non-contentious areas are those areas free of land tenure issues, or where a political agreement exists between community members)
- Replaced or repaired more then 400 kilometers of potable water network
- Rehabilitated 105 water treatment plants and units.
- Cleared sewer lines and rehabilitated seven sewage treatment plants
- Refurbished and restocked four municipal water testing laboratories
- Conducted 50 workshops and trainings on media, civic education, women's advocacy, and anti-corruption
- Actively recruited and trained women to serve on governorate, municipal and neighborhood advisory councils throughout Iraq

The list for Iraq goes on. I don't feel like mentioning things out of the government and agricultural sector. Though I do find it funny that free elections that were successfully held, twice, in Iraq are negated by the fact that on-going violence in that country persists. As though the sole purpose of the elections was to curb that. It wasn't. The purpose was to elect officials would who draft Iraq's consitution. How'd that turn out? Successfully. The vote on the constitution was to approve or disapprove of it. How'd that turn out? Successful.

For Christ's sake, there's still violence in Afghanistan, but it doesn't negate the fact that those elections were also successful.

Let's see, what else happened?
- Disarmed Libya of their nuclear armament
- Signed the largest nuclear arms reduction in world history with Russia
- Pressured Saudi Arabia into allowing the first municipal elections since 1960.
- Donated $907.3 million dollars to the nations affected by the 2004 tsunami (this one alone I could go into a long list of accomplishments)

The list goes on and on. I just really don't have the time to pull up more figures for places like Afghanistan, since US troops are NOT under the command of the U.N. and therefore operate under their own policy and government. Which sorta negates you estimate that the security measures we've set up there for election time are irrelevant. Special Forces there vaccinate men, women, and children... and you know what? I could actually produce a list just like the one for Iraq on Afghanistan, of all the accomplishments of the US armed forces over there, which again, are not under the control of the U.N. and operate just as they operate in Iraq.

But whatever. Apparently out of this list, you couldn't find one thing the Bush Administration did right.

Also, your bias isn't a problem (aside from you claiming that your 'outsider' opinion contains no bias), until you act on it as a moderator.
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Old 11-28-2005, 01:50 PM   #39
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Sorry for getting off topic, but this is what happens when you drag the topic of Iraq into every thread, then throw out claims that you're unbiased after having a long track record of only reporting the bad and sometimes even misreporting simply to make for bad PR.
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Old 11-28-2005, 03:04 PM   #40
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Alrighty then, Is there another thread where you'd like our personal little dispute to be merged with? Would you like a thread just on this issue?

It's hard to argue these issues, I'll be the first to make that concession.

Thanks for the numbers, Binkie, but they are a direct result from the invasion, are they not?
Or was the US gonna do that anyway whether they had occupied Iraq or not?

Still, considering things from a spilt milk perspective (the US is there and that's that), I'll take those impressive numbers and reply:

30.000 CIVILIAN deaths.


I know, I know... I said it before.... still....30.000...

Another arguement:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/inter...651789,00.html

And what has this conflict done for international politics, international relations and international Law?
Have you considered it?

There is still no accepted legal term that clearly and unmistakeably indentifies terrorists and terrorism.
This isn't only UN, it's also NATO.

International law is at stake here. Not just how the rest of the world interacts with the US and vice-versa, but for the rest of the world deals with itself as well.

US global leadership is to me like the war in Iraq: nothing I agree with, but a reality all the same.

So I criticise that reality and voice my opinions on where I would like to be "led" to.

So, because I'm a moderator, I cannot simply chose a side and argue for it?
You argue your side (the US administration) using reason.
Great, but was it reason that made you chose that side? Could you possibly have taken said side because it legally represents your nation?
Sure.
Is that wrong?
No.

But there are serious flaws on your side and you know them and could argue them, but you chose a side and you stick to it. Well, me to.

Am I to curb my opinions on account of being a mod? Nope.

Am I biased?
We all are, but you accuse me of letting my bias interfere with my moderating.
Because I delete a pic of Sternn being sodomized and another that not only attacks him, but his choice of association? When he "came out", some of the bashing even came close to gay-bashing.
I allowed pictures of coffins of american soldiers with flags drapped over them. That's it.

Your "side" insists that ANY depiction, photo or portrayal of a dead american soldier to be unamerican and unpatriotic? What the fuck?! And you call me biased?
Your own government doesn't allow you to see your dead (for very pro-war public relations reasons) and you swallow it.
I remember bumper stickers that said: censorship is unamerican.
But a mass grave was found in Iraq filled with bodies? No problem there.
I wonder from the pics the world saw from Abu Grahib, the kind of pictures that weren't shown to the public.

Well, when you find something of mine worth deleting, let me know.
When you find something I failed to delete, let me know.
When you find something I deleted that you think I should not have, let me know.
And I'll take a look and try to see it from your perspective.
It should be fun.
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Old 11-28-2005, 04:14 PM   #41
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I don't know, what has the invasion done for international politics? Let's see, the nation now has good ties with Iran, 47 countires have now re-established embassies in Iraq, alot of international business has been drawn to Iraq, so on and so forth. These are long lasting things. What's not long lasting is: unsecure borders, the freedom of movement that many terror cells have to operate with, foreign backing of certain 'resistance' groups through funding and training.

What else has it done? Brought alot of Muslims in the Middle East together in condemning terrorism. The very same people that paraded around in the streets when 9/11 occured, but cried and wept when bombers from the same organization targeted them in their own backyard.

There's a reason the US, especially, doesn't want the term "terrorism" to have a blanket definition. That being that it has it's own list of terror organizations and the ability to seize funds from virtually whoever it wants. If the international community agrees on a term that may remove a group like say, HAMAS, from the US' list, then suddenly they have no ability to freeze their assests internationally. So don't hold your breath for that one.

And you're getting me wrong. You can have have a very strong, biased opinion on anything you want as a moderator. First off, that's not why I'm riding you on the "biased" comment here. I'm pointing this out because you said your view of the situation as an outsider is all find and dandy cause you're unbiased towards the situation. I say, "I don't think so." As for moderating, the only time your views play against you is when you base a decision, as a moderator, on that bias. I'm not going to cite examples from the past, but this very subject has caused an uproar before (and it's not the situation you've cited).

I'm not going to sit here and try to act like I'm not biased either. It's obvious I lean towards acting as the US' PR department around here. But then again, I didn't claim to be unbiased as an outsider.

And no, we don't insist that it's wrong to post pictures of dead american soldiers if there's a point. Sternn's posting of those pictures of charred, dead American soldiers was followed by an attempt to portray their deaths as being funny and outright hilarious. Thats what set people off. Why? Because we know people serving, some who have died.
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Old 11-28-2005, 04:19 PM   #42
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Nooooo Mael you deleted whole threads in the past, long after Seth told you not to, and it wasn't for the sake of one or two pics.

And what Binkie and I did was to show to those new here that it isn't a simple matter of you disagreeing with Isreal's politics, but your deep deep hatred towards America (yeah yeah you love the people and the music it's "teh goverment" you hate!) because you said

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom
if we (as outsiders) didn't feel that although not suffering directly, can perceive the issue from a rationally detached point of view (as opposed to one clouded by prejudice, fear, pain and hatred)
which you hilariously follow-up with

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom
Bombing the Pentagon?
Yup. I stand by that as well (I'd give about 30 min prior warning to evacuate civ...oops). I'll go even further and include Lockheed and a little oraganization with headquarters in Langdon, VA. Howzat?
I am not looking to get you de-modded, no martyrdom here, I just want you once and for all to explain what in your personal life makes you hate America(n politics!!1) so bad.

And why do any of you fight back after Binkie posts? You're never gonna top her. Why do you think I became a Republican? I don't want her handing me MY ass. ^_^
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Old 11-29-2005, 09:16 AM   #43
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What I hate about America, by MrMaelstrom:

I hate it that US citizens are so arrogant they keep forgeting that America is a continent and not a country.

I hate the way you really believe you're the greatest nation on Earth (sorry but Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the whole of Scandinavia completely kick your arse)

You saved the western civilization in WWII (I really believe that), but that can't be used as leverage to win your arguements Ad Aeternum. And let it be known that WWII started in 1939, and not when Pearl Harbour happened.

I hate it that you're the only nation in the world to have ever used Nuclear weapons (on civilians at that), and you arrogue yourselves the notion that you got the morals to decide what the rest of us use. This last bit goes to Europe as well.

I hate your Gung ho attitude when you have economic interests, and yet you are ready to play the diplomatic game with N. Korea just because you don't want to upset China, on which you now depend economically.

What's with God Bless America? Doesn't he bless the rest of us?

I pledge alliegance, to the flag, of the US of A, and to the republic, for which it stands, one nation, under God (which one?), indivisible, with lçiberty and justice for all.

This last bit is what gets me the most. That phrase, along with the US constitution, are the greatest written works by humanity to date, and you corrupted and distorted what was an "american dream" (it really became a global dream that you offered us) into a dirty, unviable "way of life" we can't afford or uphold.

The rest of us had that dream as well (Liberty, justice and the pursuit of happiness aren't US creations or discoveries, but you were the 1st to ever put ideals so lofty as objectives of your constitution), but no more. I hate you for taking that dream away with pragmatism and rethorics.

All the reasons why I hate you are the same reasons why I hate my country and the ones that surround me. For giving in, for giving up.

When you guys give up on those ideals and corrupt them like (I believe) you did, what hope do the rest of us have? None (while you're king of the hill, that is).

I thought you were the greatest.
I thought you were going to lead this planet out of the dark ages.
Sure, you're leading (whether you or I want to or not); but you're taking us nowhere.
You have no clear route, no guidelines. No consistency.
It's all about maintaining a lifestyle (which is clearly unsustainable), a "way of life". You know what? It sucks.
I want out. The only way out is through you (Kyoto again, Korea again, Russian states again, war on drugs again, war on terror again)

It really could have happened, you know?

I hate the dying of that dream. I'lm leaving work now. I will get back to this.

Oh, please remeber, you asked me about the US. Ask me about the rest of the world later (like the China thread).
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Old 11-29-2005, 09:33 AM   #44
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And Binkie: I went too far on previous occasions, I grant you that, but please give me the benefit of the doubt regarding future actions of mine.

Yes, I'm terribly temperamental, but I can be talked to, so please don't let me get away with it in future. And thank you.
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Old 11-29-2005, 11:42 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Binkie
There's a reason the US, especially, doesn't want the term "terrorism" to have a blanket definition. That being that it has it's own list of terror organizations and the ability to seize funds from virtually whoever it wants. If the international community agrees on a term that may remove a group like say, HAMAS, from the US' list, then suddenly they have no ability to freeze their assests internationally.

You're completely right, of course.
But the other side of the arguement is that anyrepressive political regime can now hunt down, hold without accusation or legal defense its citizens and later deal away with them in some closed off puppet trial under the vague definition of terrorism.

It's an excuse for atrocity
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Old 11-29-2005, 01:49 PM   #46
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Umm,

I am new here, but I can tell when people are not talking about the topic for which this thread was created. You arent talking about Hamas/Israel anymore, please move your discussions elsewhere!

thanks
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Old 11-29-2005, 04:38 PM   #47
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Heh. Funny.
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Old 11-29-2005, 11:39 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bin_Laid
Umm,

I am new here, but I can tell when people are not talking about the topic for which this thread was created. You arent talking about Hamas/Israel anymore, please move your discussions elsewhere!

thanks

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Old 11-29-2005, 11:45 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bin_Laid
I am new here, but I can tell when people are not talking about the topic for which this thread was created. You arent talking about Hamas/Israel anymore, please move your discussions elsewhere!
bah. the hamas / israel debate is a mere drop in the bucket vs. the ongoing discussion of why so many hate america. you're new here, bin laid - and in the words of that funk-a-delic rock band, extreme - if you don't like, what you see here, get the funk out

even better - post some more of your own ideas rather than telling those who have decided to wax venomously about their hatred to take it outside. all roads here lead to america-bashing. it's apparently fun, popular and the right thing to do these days in order to stay with the mainstream.


i was once disappointed by maelstrom's vitriolic pontifications regarding america. i guess i'm past that now, because that latest rant barely aroused my need to post a defense. i realized long ago that people the world over look to america in a time of need and despise my country to their core when that need is no longer there. it's evident again and again and again...

such is life.

don't look to the joneses in order to garner hope for your future. take stock in what you have inside your own home. your ideals for what you can achieve will be much more realistic.

and for anyone who spouts foolishness about why people can't just sit down and talk things out - you negate yourself and your delusional ideas any time you get angry and lash out at your focus of anger. don't be a hypocrite.
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Old 11-30-2005, 12:08 AM   #50
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Al, that picture is funny!
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