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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 11-22-2004, 09:45 PM   #101
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I know I know, the embargo against Japan...and I am not above saying we knew of the attack but let it happen to have an excuse to join the war.

The U.S. told Japan to surrender. The U.S. (and others) told Saddam to leave. Those U.N. inspectors...fuck me I am surprised anyone could take that seriously.

It'd be like

Officer: "Police open up, we have a search warrant!"
Earl the Meth Dealer: "Okay come on in."
Officer: "Sir what is in that closet?'
Earl the Meth Dealer: "Uh...you gotta leave now! I'll show you this room, and you can look under the pillows of that couch...but that's it."
Officer: "Okay."
Leaves house, then turns around and knocks again.
Officer: "Sir we have a warrant and demand to see what is in there!"
Earl the Meth Dealer: "Uh...hold-on...Bill, get over here with your brother's truck on the double!";...uh...come back tommorow, k?"
Officer: "Alright, but you better let us in then!"

Then there is the funny skit where they come to evict Earl the Meth Dealer and his no good sons, but I am too tired to type that.

My WTO analogy was pointing out how you can have people blend into a group with no intention of helping that cause, rather to cause chaos.
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Old 11-22-2004, 09:47 PM   #102
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...the special bipartisan commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks against New York and the Pentagon has found "no credible evidence" of any operational link between Iraq and al-Qaeda.
I am so fucking sick of this that it's not even funny. Am I the only one who actually READ the 9/11 report? Am I the only one who DIDN'T miss the parts about Hussein's top lieutenants personally meeting with bin Laden and HIS top lieutenants on numerous, multiple occasions?

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Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom
Excuse me, but wasn't it the UN's own inspectors who daid that he had disarmed?
The same inspectors who were discredited by the US administration and later were proven to be nothing short of absolutely right?
The intelligence agencies of the US, the UK, Israel, Russia, and Australia were quite convinved that Hussein still had WMDs at the time. Ergo, he did not provide proof that he had disarmed.

There were 16 other Resolutions passed by the UN on the issue. Clearly, Hussein was not fulfilling his end of the bargain.
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Old 11-23-2004, 03:22 AM   #103
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First, if you want to get into violating UN resolutions, Israel is currently in violation of over 76 when it comes to the Palestianian issue (ie. allowing assassinations, allowing refusal of medical treatment, illegal detentions, torturing family members of suspects,etc). Why don't we take action against them? Because the states always blocks any resolution for sanctions, and pesonally bullies anyone who trys to taek action against israel. So if you want to say 'because of 1 or 2 violations, we had to invade iraq' then you are a hyprocrit as the us has blocked all actions in 76 resolutions against israel.

Second, it amazes me to see people say 'people die in a war' like its no big deal. As a former military serive member, and a person who now works as a private security specailist for hire across the world, I can tell you its not that easy.

If you have never killed a man, then how can you know how it feels? It amazes me how people in the states so flippantly say 'oh people die'. Unless you have held a man in your hands and watched them die, and watched how it affects their family, unless you have explained to a mother that her son is not coming home, explain to a children how their father is gone for good, you really shouldn't say 'oh its a war'.

Plus, we are talking about wives, mothers, small children. Walk into your local mall and look around at the families, and think, if that family you see walking doing their holiday shopping lost one of their children, how would they feel? I'll tell you, the same as any other family in the world. Justifying killing their children because of their religion or skin color is nothing more than hypocrisy.

When a life is taken, it affects many people. Think of the people you know hwo have died, and think about the idea of members of your family or close friends being gunned down in the streets on their way to werk, 'by accident' in 'friendly fire' as some outside country comes to 'bring liverty' to your country. Does that make it ok? You going to forget your mother because hey the former leader of your country wasn't such a nice guy to some other foriegn county?

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Old 11-23-2004, 07:20 AM   #104
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CptSternn, I was actually sympathizing with you, and partly in agreement, right up to this line:

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Justifying killing their children because of their religion or skin color is nothing more than hypocrisy.
Has anyone here said, "They're Muslim; screw 'em"? Or "What do we care about brown people?"?
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Old 11-23-2004, 08:33 AM   #105
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People, people, we've all posted shit that went over the line. We all posted shit that wasn't completely accurate and sometimes just plain wrong.

Stern, Asurai is right in his comment. Do not treat US citizens as morons and you'll not be attacked in a moronic way. You have very valid points in (I'd say) all of your posts, but it gets lost in the patronizing way in which you dish it out. Please try to stick to the arguement on governments and administrations and policies.

In my opinion, people are responsible for the leaders they elect. The results of the recent US election prove me wrong. I don't believe that many people (that I don't agree with) are unconscious, uneducated and blatantly stupid. Therefore, it's not that simple. And yes, the US does have a different set of morals than the rest of us.

So what?

Calling someone (directly or not) stupid, does not get their attention drawn to your points.
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Old 11-23-2004, 09:03 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn
First, if you want to get into violating UN resolutions, Israel is currently in violation of over 76 when it comes to the Palestianian issue (ie. allowing assassinations, allowing refusal of medical treatment, illegal detentions, torturing family members of suspects,etc). Why don't we take action against them? Because the states always blocks any resolution for sanctions, and pesonally bullies anyone who trys to taek action against israel. So if you want to say 'because of 1 or 2 violations, we had to invade iraq' then you are a hyprocrit as the us has blocked all actions in 76 resolutions against israel.
Nuclear weapons and land issues are two different things.


Quote:
If you have never killed a man, then how can you know how it feels? It amazes me how people in the states so flippantly say 'oh people die'. Unless you have held a man in your hands and watched them die, and watched how it affects their family, unless you have explained to a mother that her son is not coming home, explain to a children how their father is gone for good, you really shouldn't say 'oh its a war'.
'people in the states'? Way to generalize. Do the PLO and IRA subscribe to the notion of consoling the victim's families?

Quote:
Plus, we are talking about wives, mothers, small children. Walk into your local mall and look around at the families, and think, if that family you see walking doing their holiday shopping lost one of their children, how would they feel?
Some groups see that as a great opportunity to set off a bomb. Again, the PLO, IRA and Sein Fenn.

Quote:
I'll tell you, the same as any other family in the world. Justifying killing their children because of their religion or skin color is nothing more than hypocrisy.

When a life is taken, it affects many people. Think of the people you know hwo have died, and think about the idea of members of your family or close friends being gunned down in the streets on their way to werk, 'by accident' in 'friendly fire' as some outside country comes to 'bring liverty' to your country. Does that make it ok? You going to forget your mother because hey the former leader of your country wasn't such a nice guy to some other foriegn county?

Slán
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Old 11-23-2004, 05:29 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Asurai
I am so fucking sick of this that it's not even funny. Am I the only one who actually READ the 9/11 report? Am I the only one who DIDN'T miss the parts about Hussein's top lieutenants personally meeting with bin Laden and HIS top lieutenants on numerous, multiple occasions?
You're so tired of hearing it, even though that's the conclusion the report gives? Yeah, al-Qaeda and Iraqi Intellegence met. On many, many occasions they communicated back and forth through embassies and black operatives. That's very shady. But can you cite the part of the report that goes into detail about the relationship being operationally cohesive? Did they find solid information that suggested both actually acted together?

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The intelligence agencies of the US, the UK, Israel, Russia, and Australia were quite convinved that Hussein still had WMDs at the time.
The GRU? Same group under investigation for their deployment of Spetsnaz units in Iraq weeks prior to the invasion to evacuate certain materials and documents that could possibly be damaging to Russia?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergei Lavrov
We said that we don't have information which would prove that the WMD, weapons of mass destruction, programmes remain in Iraq. We also said we don't have information that those programmes have been fully stopped.
That, quoted from the Russian ambassador to the UN, doesn't sound like he was "quite certain" about the situation, hence Russia's persistant stance on giving weapons inspectors more time to investigate. The GRU and FSB were quite politically motivated not to dig up too much dirt on Iraq, as their were political and economic bonds between the two nations. Again, hence their strong opposition to the war.
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Old 11-23-2004, 11:30 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlKilyu
Quote:
If you have never killed a man, then how can you know how it feels? It amazes me how people in the states so flippantly say 'oh people die'. Unless you have held a man in your hands and watched them die, and watched how it affects their family, unless you have explained to a mother that her son is not coming home, explain to a children how their father is gone for good, you really shouldn't say 'oh its a war'.
'people in the states'? Way to generalize.


Maelstrom was here!
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Old 12-28-2004, 12:48 PM   #109
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Granny brought up the Viktor Yushchenko election victory, which I have been following in the news very closely.

The Dioxin poisoning that he has survived, and the disfigurements to his face are so dramatic, it is hard to believe it's the same man. The new information on the AP suggests that the Russian Secret Service were involved in his poisoning. The Eastern regions of the world certainly play buy an entirely different set of rules than the West does.

I deeply admire his strength, bravery and commitment to the Ukrainian people. Many other men or women, would've simply given up the fight after such a serious attack on his life. He is a man of rare character.

The Ukraine desperately needs a man like Yushchenko. He can now focus on the task at hand, which is to unite the country and begin building stability.

The Good Guys finally won one...

:wink:
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Old 12-28-2004, 01:13 PM   #110
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I also love how Yushchenko used his disfigured face to represent the current corruption in the Ukrainian government- he said something along the lines of "Look at my face, this is the face of the Ukraine." I really like this guy, he seems hell bent on change.

Although, when I read the article on his victory, the other Victor (his opponent Victor Yanukovych) is going to challenge the new results. Bastard. I know he won't, but just that he had the gall to not concede, even after the investigations on how the horrible people on his side did all that alteration on the vote... Pisses me off.

Yayyyyyyy Yushchenko!!!!!
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Old 12-28-2004, 03:00 PM   #111
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Dioxin was sort of a dumb choice to slip the guy. Unless they didn't mean to kill him, in which case it's even more of a dumb choice. There's no doubt in my mind it was the Russians. KGB used to slip chemicals into just about everything back in the 80s. Drinks, gloves, whatever. The successor organization to the KGB are slowly becoming just as powerful and bold with their tatics, which was the whole reason the KGB was broken down and banished in the first place. Durring the Beslan crisis, an FSB agent boarded an airplane and slipped some kind of toxin into a well known reporter's drink to prevent her from reaching the school to cover the story.

These guys seem to have no boundries or limits to what they'll do and to who they'll do it to, which doesn't surprise me with Putin at the helm. I didn't realize until now that they were this active in foreign political affairs. But again, not too much of a surprise when you look at where Russia is heading nowadays.

As for Ukraine, doesn't matter to me who wins. Yushchenko and his reforms are fine, just so long as he doesn't completely scathe what relations they have with Russia.
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Old 12-29-2004, 09:04 PM   #112
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This was a shock to me. Well, not so much a shock as just plain disturbing.

Pro-Moscow Chechen Awarded Moscow's Top Decoration

MOSCOW (Reuters) - A pro-Moscow Chechen leader accused by rights groups of kidnapping and murder earned Russia's highest award Wednesday for ``valor and heroism.''

Activists reacted with disbelief to the news, with the Helsinki Group's Tatyana Lokshina saying it ``discredits the award Hero of Russia. If Russia has such heroes, it is hard to say what our state has sunk to.''

Ramzan Kadyrov is the first deputy prime minister in Chechnya's pro-Moscow government and is key to Russian efforts to defeat rebels who have resisted Moscow's rule for a decade.

He said the award showed Moscow's appreciation for efforts to stabilize Chechnya started by his father Akhmad, a former rebel who switched sides to head Chechnya's pro-Moscow government until his assassination in May.

Ramzan Kadyrov leads a several thousand-strong irregular army called the ``kadyrovtsy'' accused by activists of disproportionate violence in operations to detain young men suspected of rebel ties.

``There is information that Ramzan Kadyrov does not just order kidnappings and abductions, but actually takes part in them himself,'' said Lokshina, who covers Chechnya for Russia's oldest rights organization.

``I have worked a lot in Chechnya, and it is hard to shock me. But I did not expect this,'' she added.

Analysts say Kadyrov operates almost entirely outside central control and often uses Moscow-supplied arms to pursue his own interests. Many soldiers in Chechnya say privately they spend as much time fighting the kadyrovtsy as the rebels.

``Russian President Vladimir Putin by his decree awarded the decoration of Hero of Russia to Ramzan Kadyrov ... for valor and heroism, shown while fulfilling his professional duty,'' said the Kremlin.

Ramzan Kadyrov thanked Putin for the award, and said he would keep fighting against rebels that Moscow links to international terrorist groups.

``I see this ... as recognition of the course chosen by Akhmad Kadyrov to bring peace and stability back to the Chechen Republic,'' a spokesman quoted him as saying.

``Above all, the heroism of the brave Chechen people has been recognized, as has our full resolve to continue the uncompromising and decisive fight against terrorism.''

Akhmad Kadyrov was made a posthumous Hero of Russia earlier this year.
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Old 12-29-2004, 09:15 PM   #113
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Hero of Russia? Wow. I thought those kinds of titles ("Hero of the Soviet Union") stopped being handed out after the giant communist bloc collapsed. Interesting.

Nice to know this now means the criminal operates out of complete immunity. No limits, no boundries. Just so long as they get the job done.

:/
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Old 12-29-2004, 09:39 PM   #114
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That's exactly why I was concerned when Putin said he was taking the war on terror internationally, and he was going to be doing the pre-emptive thing. It's scary, Russia's crushing Chechnya and nobody cares.
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Old 12-31-2004, 02:25 PM   #115
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Alot of the western european nations critize the man on Russia's handling of Chechneya every chance they get. Most are tired of trying to get through to the Kremlin on the issue, as it's been an issue most nations have fought for almost 10 years now (with little avail). The U.S. has stopped publicly arguing Russia on the issue after the terrorist attacks in their country, but still keep the same position.

Russia, itself, is just concerned with control. It's all they've ever been concerned with. It's why Ukraine is pissing the Kremlin off so much. Many of these nations that no longer exist under Russian influence have the potential to cater to NATO, which is a huge insult to Moscow, since many of these countries were once Warsaw countries (the Soviet-era anti-NATO organization). The Chechniyan conflict is not only putting a kink in the Russian economy, but it has completely alienated their international credibility and support. So it's not like they have a good reason for keeping that state under their wing.
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Old 12-31-2004, 07:31 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeapotScar
Russia's crushing Chechnya and nobody cares.

Nope!

^_^
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Old 12-31-2004, 07:35 PM   #117
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You know John Kerry is thinkin' "WTF? I got injected with poison daily and I still lost!"

btw I am very proud of myself for not making this

into an own3d pic, cause damn, it's just asking for it.
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Old 01-03-2005, 11:02 AM   #118
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Thank God Yanukovych gave up on challenging. That would've been a disgusting display of political corruption if he *had* actually taken it to the Supreme Court.


Anyways- I wanted to talk about Korea. Apparently, there are a lot of North Korean Refugees, and I was reading the news stories on this site, after hearing that Russia has taken a no-nonsense stance on the status of illegal immigrants. From what I understand, North Korea is on the verge of collapse, because its people are starving, among other issues. Surrounding countries such as Russia and China are afraid of what would happen if there was mass North Korean Refugee immigration. As always, an understandable concern, but I haven't looked into the human rights violations enough to form an opinion.

South Korea is apparently helping Russia seek out and deport North Korean refugees in Russia?

I don't know- does somebody know more about this than me? When Russia was the Soviet Union, they supported North Korea throughout the war and everything, but now, just because of the possibility of North Korea falling, they're getting scared of the immigrants, etc? It's interesting to me, and I'd like to know more, if anybody has any idea what's going on. Or if anybody cares, I'm going to keep doing research.

*edit*: Alright, I just found out how horrible it is- the refugees are being tracked down in Russia by North Korean officials for execution. There's no food in Russia, so even though they escape Kim Jong Il's oppression, they still starve. I don't know, I think that since the Russian government was so keen on aiding North Korea when it was a pawn in the Cold War, they should concern themselves more with the plight of the North Korean people, set up some sort of system to deal with refugees. Then again, if I was a refugee, Russia's the last place I'd look for freedom and a better way of life.

Between North Korea and Chechnya, I'm pretty sure the entire world is going to hell. And what heppened with the nukes of North Korea? They have "one, possibly two" nuclear weapons. Great.
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Old 01-03-2005, 11:32 AM   #119
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There is a good chance the north has spies pose as refuges, hence one of their reasons for being so causious.

I am willing to bet 90% of that population is miserable and hate Kim Il Jung, I don't understand why they haven't tried to overthrow that goverment yet.
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Old 01-03-2005, 11:39 AM   #120
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Thank God Yanukovych gave up on challenging. That would've been a disgusting display of political corruption if he *had* actually taken it to the Supreme Court.
I'm pretty sure he hasn't stopped challenging-he resigned from his position, but he said he would keep fighting, though he doesn't have much hope.
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Old 01-03-2005, 11:46 AM   #121
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This is Tea- Yeah, you're right- I saw they the complaints got thrown out in a lower court and got confused. But even his campaign manager is pessimistic towards higher appeals (and who wouldn't be?). Unless they pull something ridiculous, I'd say Yushchenko's safe.
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Old 01-03-2005, 12:06 PM   #122
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I think you're right too, cause here he is giving his victory speech...


Tea please don't get mad, I couldn't help myself.
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Old 01-03-2005, 09:39 PM   #123
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Indeed, Tea.

The North Korean government is slowly being strangled by sanctions (and Kim's desire to spend what money they have on expensive items that don't benefit the country in any way). They may at some point, if it comes to it, use the nukes they have as a bargaining chip to collect and run their economy solely off of foreign aid in exchange for dismantling nukes.

As for revolt in that country, it's unlikely since N. Korea currently has the world's 5th largest military. Soldiers watching soldiers. The whole government is run almost like a totalitarianism where strict control scares people from making the first move to do anything but escape. Hell, even one of Kim Jong Il's sons tried to illegally enter Japan in an attempt to escape.
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Old 01-03-2005, 10:28 PM   #124
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Well lemmie get this straight.

After thinking on these posts today, I got to thinkin that they were looking at Russia and China to blame concerning refugees.

When it's the North Korean goverment to blame.

If jaded and dickless Americans tried to enter Canada, would the liberals blame Canada? (I know I know the SP movie) No, they'd point the finger at the American goverment.

So why is this any different? Why isn't Sternn posting daily updates concerning the North Koreans dying of malnourishment, cold, and God knows what else daily? Embargo to blame? Fuck you.
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Old 01-04-2005, 06:43 AM   #125
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There are 165 nations in this world, only a half dozen claim to be democracies. Of the rest, 75% are dictatorships. In those dictatorships, people suffer and die daily. However, also note at any given time there are around 14 civil wars going on in those same countries because the people took a stand and are fighting the government.

An example of this you might relate to is Nigeria. Anyone see Tears Of The Sun? Well, that goes on daily, all the time, and always will.

Does that mean the US should invade hundred of countries to bring them 'democracy'? Why hasn't the us go around the globe and helped any of these people? North Korea falls into this category. There are dozens of regimes in Africa that are far worse than N. Korea. However, ye never even hear about them on the news, and most Americans can't even find em on a map.

Bottom line is life is tough, and in some countries is worse than that. However its up to the people to make their views known and to fix their own problems. Its not for some outside think tank with too much money and power to decide the fate of a seperate sovern nation and come in, piss on their culture and religion and tell them they need to act more like they act.

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