Try hards

[delicti]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

Some people like to wear lime-green squorts, but I'm assuming you don't, does that make people who wear lime-green squorts foolish or immature? Some people's aesthetic tastes compel them to tattoo their entire bodies with leopard spots, but those people are no more 'foolish' than you are- they're just different.

There is a point at which you transcended the boundary of eccentricity, and across the threshold of foolishness. That is when you inadequately researched a tight-knit community that has suffered great harm in regards to public relations, due to cape-wearers identifying with as that community, and then furthermore announcing how you are a proud member of this same destructive group.

To us, capes are not interpreted as a mark of eccentricity, but rather a warning sign of someone's insincerity and willingness to damage us for their own selfish purposes. What you consider unique, we consider cliche' and damnable. Most of us also think they just look dumb, as well.

If you're not Dave Vanian, or you're not at a Renaissance fair, don't wear a cape and a goth card at the same time.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by delicti

There is a point at which you transcended the boundary of eccentricity, and across the threshold of foolishness. That is when you inadequately researched a tight-knit community that has suffered great harm in regards to public relations, due to cape-wearers identifying with as that community, and then furthermore announcing how you are a proud member of this same destructive group.

To us, capes are not interpreted as a mark of eccentricity, but rather a warning sign of someone's insincerity and willingness to damage us for their own selfish purposes. What you consider unique, we consider cliche' and damnable. Most of us also think they just look dumb, as well.

If you're not Dave Vanian, or you're not at a Renaissance fair, don't wear a cape and a goth card at the same time.

As you would seem to know, could you please enlighten me as to how exactly those who choose to wear capes and identify as goths have 'harmed' or 'damaged' goth as a subculture? I suppose Darth Vader did blow up a few planets, but one would assume that the cape would be purged of its consequential association with evil by the noble deeds of Superman and Batman, who have saved earth on multiple occassions. If you are concerned that people who think capes are lame will connect goth with such attire and thereby come to believe that goth is lame, I can't make any promises, but I'm pretty sure that those people find goggles and cyber dreads to be lame as well. To each his own, but personally I'd be more worried about the propagation of the belief that goths worship satan or plot to shoot up schools than the propagation of the belief that they wear capes.

Nevertheless, I don't really want to have this argument. I've already granted you permission to view me as an individual who is not goth. Should anyone ever spot me walking down the street in a cape, turn to you, and ask, "Hey, is that guy in that cape a goth like you?", you're entirely permitted to say "Fuck no". In fact, if you ever overhear me insinuating that I am a goth, you are likewise entirely permitted to scream across whatever distance from which you were eavesdropping, "YOU'RE NOT GOTH ASSHOLE". It will scarce affect me, though.

[Lapin]

Really, this is getting silly. Z. Maximus wants to wear a cape, so he should be allowed to do so to his little heart's content.

Eveyone else can laugh or bemoan however much they want, I suppose.

(claps brightly) Let's find a new point, shall we?

[maggot]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

You're taking a great deal of umbrage to my insinuation that people who attack those who chose to wear capes are conformists, but in attacking someone who wears a cape, one implies that he or she would prefer that person refrain from wearing a cape and dress in a manner more similar to that in which other people dress. Isn't that conformity?

Let us define conformity in the correct subcultural context:

Conformity is NOT being like someone else that's normal, it's being 'normal' because everyone else is.

And now in most peoples' opinion:

Anything that is 'normal' is conformist.



And now for correct subcultural nonconformity:

Being whatever the hell you goddamn want, be it wearing pink polo shirts with the collar popped, or a cape, or falsely torn pants that cost 1000 dollars. Also having the guts to say something is stupid without worrying about being a conformist.


Idiots.

[KontanKarite]

...Seriously. Capes can be kinda cool. Interview with a Vampire proves that quite well.

[Lapin]

In that context, so can homo-eroticism. Which, along with capes, that movie has in spades.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

...Seriously. Capes can be kinda cool. Interview with a Vampire proves that quite well.

They also have a lot of blue veins painted on the sides of their foreheads. Is that cool too?

But no, If something exists, someone thinks it's stupid, and someone thinks it's cool. One has every right to wear a cape (or anything else that doesn't show anatomy that's not supposed to be seen in public), as long as they feel comfortable wearing it.

[Clockwork]

Capes are alright in my book, if complimented by tasteful clothing that doesn't clash with it with unintentional irony. But that's just a matter of opinion, based solely on preference. I'd say something different if gothicusmaximus only wore capes to try and connect with us.

But I think you're an intelligent person who wears capes simply because you like doing so, and not because of what it may incorrectly be associated with. I've no problem with that.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Originally Posted by delicti

If you're not Dave Vanian, or you're not at a Renaissance fair, don't wear a cape and a goth card at the same time.

Gah. I second this. But I don't think capes will bad on anyone involved in our scenes' looks, if that's the style that fits em, all fine. Just try and make it not well, cheesy. Oh and, Hahahah. Love the Damned reference, yay Dave!


Grimmly Fiendishhhh...bad bad bad boy bad bad bad booy...

And I agree with Cicero as well. Fashion has become something bastardized even more then cinema. Self-proclaiming "normaal" people will wear anything these days. Ugh.
Goth Forever
Goth Forever
Goth Forever

[TopHaggardDoll]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

You're taking a great deal of umbrage to my insinuation that people who attack those who chose to wear capes are conformists, but in attacking someone who wears a cape, one implies that he or she would prefer that person refrain from wearing a cape and dress in a manner more similar to that in which other people dress. Isn't that conformity?

Just because I have an opinion on what I think looks tasteful does NOT make me a conformist. I am allowed an opinion.

Just wear the God damn cape, I don't give a shit about this anymore.

CAPES ARE AWESOME! YEAH!.....*grumbles and walks away*

[Apathy's_Child]

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

You may have noticed that my bullshit meter is extremely sensitive; I know this won't make me popular, but quite frankly, I don't care.

So is mine, and you can be hella patronising. Doesn't mean I always disagree with you, but you seem to be on people's cases a lot. Telling him he's basically an idiot who will look back on his present self and squirm is one example of this.

And get over the big word thing. He's not using words so complicated they're incomprehensible. If you have a good vocabulary there's no problem understanding him. If not, then maybe a Bone-Chilling LITERARY Culture wasn't the best thing to join.

[delicti]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

As you would seem to know, could you please enlighten me as to how exactly those who choose to wear capes and identify as goths have 'harmed' or 'damaged' goth as a subculture?

Before there were Tripp microwave smugglers, there were capes and fake fangs.

In fact, if you ever overhear me insinuating that I am a goth, you are likewise entirely permitted to scream across whatever distance from which you were eavesdropping, "YOU'RE NOT GOTH ASSHOLE". It will scarce affect me, though.

I'm not that rude. I do think you should be aware of the stereotypes you're willingly placing upon yourself by wearing a cape and going to goth forums.

I'm just going to take a bat to the beehive right now and say that if this was a club and not an internet forum, you'd actually be getting it a lot worse from every single person here. There really is that much animosity.

I have nothing against capes otherwise. I own a cloak myself (which I sewed together, actually). However, it stays with all my Renaissance fair gear, where it belongs.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

What pisses me off about people using big/obscure words, is when they use them just to show off.

Eschew Obfuscation. *rolls eyes*

About capes, I just remembered a story my friend told me, once. She was working at the (semi-)local movie theatre, and a group of people came in, one of them wearing a cape. Apparently, he'd used it for a costume one halloween, and then just kept wearing it.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by delicti

Before there were Tripp microwave smugglers, there were capes and fake fangs.



I'm not that rude. I do think you should be aware of the stereotypes you're willingly placing upon yourself by wearing a cape and going to goth forums.

I'm just going to take a bat to the beehive right now and say that if this was a club and not an internet forum, you'd actually be getting it a lot worse from every single person here. There really is that much animosity.

I have nothing against capes otherwise. I own a cloak myself (which I sewed together, actually). However, it stays with all my Renaissance fair gear, where it belongs.

Yeah, uh, you're definitely being a douchebag. You can't hold people to the stereotypes they bring to mind by what they wear.
Maybe capes USED to mean fake goth, that doesn't mean everyone who wears them is one.
Tattoos USED to mean criminal, but that didn't, and especially doesn't now mean everyone who has a tattoo is one.

Since you seem to actually be the one with this backward thinking, the problem is you, not the person with the cape.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

Again with that weird "older-than-thou" attitude. You seem to have this philosophy that your opinions on any given matter are immutably the correct judgement regarding that matter, and that everyone will eventually grow to share those opinions or simply live a life of miserable ignorance.

All I really want to say, ultimately, is that if you want me to respect you for your professed age and wisdom, stop being petty and condescending like a junior high school student, giggling at how 'easy' it is to agitate someone who is apparently so many years your junior with puerile insults, and grow up.

The problem with having been in the scene slightly too long is that it becomes predictable, and only people who also know how predictable it is understand that. It has more to do with experience than age. I'm actually not *that*much older than you, I just got into the scene somewhat young.

I understand that you feel singled out as the poster child for bad goth stereotypes, perhaps unfairly as you don't seem to harbor any "vahmpyric" inclinations that usually go along with cape wearing. No one likes being told they look silly or that they'll grow out of it, even if it's true. Myself included.

I am sure I still have time to grow out of caring about whether or not other people embarrass themselves. It always seems bitchy, but I always do feel bad when someone shows up to the club in fangs, or hot topic "bondage pants," or a cape, or whatever and is unknowingly being snickered at by everyone. Sometimes I wonder, "Is it better to tell them and maybe save them future embarrassment, or should I just let it run its course?"

In this case it's quickly becoming clear that I should have just shrugged and said "Eh, either he'll figure it out on his own or he won't, either way not my problem." Ultimately if being overly concerned with stuff I shouldn't care about is my worst remaining vice, I can live with that, but clearly it can lead to a lot of wasted time and words.

And genuine kudos for typing in a way that seems more natural for you - the level of vocabulary you're using now just seems much less forced compared to your intro. Now, perhaps you and I should both spend more time contributing something constructive to this board, rather than quibbling over petty crap.

[Death_Mask]

“Normal” people say that platform boots and cyber hair falls are stupid, so isn’t it hypocritical, as a Goth, to say that someone wearing a cape is silly when we are the ones who value and encourage individuality. A cape, in my opinion, looks ridiculous, but that doesn’t mean that a person who does like it can’t call themselves Goth. To be honest I think tubes on your hair look foolish.

[Clockwork]

The psychology as I understand it is, you go to a goth club to be goth, not simply deviant from the rest of society. Such a tight-knit community will have its own styles and practices, but it is a misconception that ANYTHING unusual will be accepted; that is not the case.

Of course there are some who are more open-minded, but as even they are in the minority, all they can do is accept this.

[CountSixstring]

Wow some of you are waaaaay off.

[Clockwork]

You don't say. Would you care to enlighten us?

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by Death_Mask

“Normal” people say that platform boots and cyber hair falls are stupid, so isn’t it hypocritical, as a Goth, to say that someone wearing a cape is silly when we are the ones who value and encourage individuality.

But what if *I* think that platform boots and cyber hair are silly too? I think that most of the stuff I wear is cheesy and ridiculous. I joke that I'm a goth crossed with a Vegas showgirl, because I love false lashes and feathers and drama. But, I admit that I look ridiculous to much of the world. I don't hide behind some guise of "respect my individuality or else."

[Lapin]

Wowza, everyone really is getting....mad. I'll go with that word.

Really, this is silly. It's a cape, not a bomb. Can we stop talking about it and get on with a different conversation?

Please?

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

I admit that I look ridiculous to much of the world. I don't hide behind some guise of "respect my individuality or else."

I already addressed this:

Originally Posted by Me

All this aside, I would like to apologize to anyone who made fun of my predeliction for capes if I came off a little excessively combatative in my initial response. I realize the things you said were the sort of things I would have shrugged off or ignored had they been said to me in some other context- I was, I suppose, simply caught somewhat 'off guard', having expected, for some reason, that the goth community might contain more cape-wearers, or at least cape-wearer-sympathizers, than it apparently does.

I'm kind of ready to move past this debate now. In closing, I'll just say that I hope people who object to my style will not allow their judgements concerning my character to be influenced by their opinions regarding the way in which I choose to appear. I'm not wearing the cape to be a vampire. I'm clearly not wearing the cape because I think it will cause others who identify themselves as goths to like me, for if this were my motivation, the attitudes of several members of this forum would surely have compelled me to throw the thing away. I'm not wearing the cape for any reason beyond that I like the way it looks- it renders my movements more dynamic, I feel contributes to my aesthetic some rad extravagance and melodrama, the kind of extravangance and melodrama which characterizes the literature which drew me into goth in the first place.

[Lapin]

(claps hands) And thus the argument has ended! Yay!