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Old 05-03-2012, 07:19 PM   #176
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A lot of women have been socially taught that being too eager to express their opinions is a bad thing and makes them "uppity", sometimes they are taught to gather and consider all information before giving their insight, sometimes they are taught not to emphatically express anything, so you are very right about that. I can't say for sure whether or not the same is true of poc but I would think that something similar is going on there as well. Unfortunately white boys are encouraged from an early age to take charge and to be confident but the same actions that they get praised for can lead to less positive reactions for others.
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:20 PM   #177
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I read a statistic that 20% of American domestic violence would stop if there weren't any combat veterans in the country.

To say that it's not just a women's issue is an understatement.
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:27 PM   #178
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It goes deeper and I'm bothered by it. I'm not a guy who likes to try to take a leadership role. It's not my style. But the past few semesters, I've felt like I had to step up and get discussions in all my classes going. Now this is predominantly a school of people of color. And from what I've seen, there's almost this hesitation in the classes for people to speak up. Now granted, there are a lot of white people too and they also don't speak up very often. The thing is, I have to wonder if perhaps some of the reasons they don't talk is because I get excited and start discussing things. I can't know for sure. I almost want to take a vow of silence because I'm not sure if I'm just steam rolling people or what.

Another thing that's starting to bother me is that most of the people in my creative writing class are women. At least 65% women. And what's just god damned weird is how rare it is that they ever say anything. I really wonder if there's something going on that we're not really aware of.
Germaine Greer (as much as I dislike her) once said that feminist spaces should remain female only because when you put a man in a group with women, we're cultured to shut up and let him talk and he's cultured to talk over us. I do think that's true sometimes, and I've definitely become more bold and speaking up more since I've become more aware of that. I had a rough time this semester with this one guy in my anthropology course who was with the department of defense (this was a war course) and who was just not willing to admit at all that the military has such a horrible history. I don't think I changed his mind about shit, but funny enough our last argument was about Occupy and while I don't think I changed his mind, he was a lot meeker in that course since.

On the other hand, I also notice in classes that its usually the older ones who speak up the most in general and the younger ones straight out of high school tend to just listen, and that could be with an attitude that they're used to high school mentality where the teacher goes on and you passively recieve information.
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:30 PM   #179
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Well there is the age gap indeed. I'm 27. Most of my classmates are around 18 to 23 years of age. What this does do is make me think about my last assignment in Speech class.
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:32 PM   #180
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What is your assignment?
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:36 PM   #181
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I have to do a persuasive speech.

Originally, I wanted to do one about being pro-choice or why you should at least BE pro-choice. I still may do that. But I've got to do it for 10 minutes and I need good sources. At least 3 to 5 I think.

But now I kinda want to talk about male privilege and how males can recognize it and control it. But I don't feel like I'm as versed in that as I should be for such a loaded thing and the talk about pro-choice is almost a no brainer.

Basically, I've got to get this bad boy up and running by the 7th and I kinda want to make it count.
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:38 PM   #182
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Do the sources have to be from academic sources? I may be sitting next to a feminist theory gold mine.
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:39 PM   #183
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Oh, and speaking of pro-choice, did I tell you about the news coverage of the rally? On the anti-choice side, they said they had people who had regrets about abortion. They then interview A DUDE who's girlfriend had an abortion in high school and he's felt bad ever since.

The two are super related. Apparently most anti-choice organizations are run by and mostly are male.
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:43 PM   #184
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Oh, and speaking of pro-choice, did I tell you about the news coverage of the rally? On the anti-choice side, they said they had people who had regrets about abortion. They then interview A DUDE who's girlfriend had an abortion in high school and he's felt bad ever since.

The two are super related. Apparently most anti-choice organizations are run by and mostly are male.
You have a very good point there. If I want to talk about male privilege, I can still include the pro-choice aspects.

Thing is, which way would I want to do it? Talk about males running anti-choice campaigns in a pro-choice speech or talk about male privilege affecting the dialogue of even anti-choice rallies.
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:44 PM   #185
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Do the sources have to be from academic sources? I may be sitting next to a feminist theory gold mine.
Yes, the sources need to be legitimate.
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:50 PM   #186
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You have a very good point there. If I want to talk about male privilege, I can still include the pro-choice aspects.

Thing is, which way would I want to do it? Talk about males running anti-choice campaigns in a pro-choice speech or talk about male privilege affecting the dialogue of even anti-choice rallies.
How about in regards to the anti-choice movement being a backlash against the feminist movement? In Susan Faludi's Backlash she has a chapter on that and talks a lot particularly about Operation Rescue (the founder was actually raised by his pro-choice feminist aunts. Makes me afraid to have kids, this is how they'd rebel against me.) There's several academic sources about how the evangelicals got into it for the same reason, before the eighties they viewed abortion as a Catholic problem, but then felt demoralized by the gains of feminism (such as no-fault divorce) and was seduced by the right.
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:58 PM   #187
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Alright. I'm digging this. Let me digest on it for tomorrow and hopefully I can build up a kind of frame work to work on. It's a 10 minute speech, so I'll have to be aware of that. When I get the basic framework down, I could let you take a look at it to see where things can be inserted and if you want and if you actually care to give some input on it, I will give you credit in my speech for assisting me.
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:01 PM   #188
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I would be more than happy to give you any input or anything but I think Saya is the only one who can really give you sources, I have some great books but um...I haven't really used them lately, I'm not even sure where most of them are
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:05 PM   #189
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Sure thing! I'm not doing school over the summer and already I feel weird and off by the lack of writing D:

Sol, the only reason I can give resources really is that I have access to academic journals and I never sell my text books XD
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:07 PM   #190
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Okay. Well, let me figure out an outline. When I have the outline down, I can have you guys look at it, see what it is I kinda want to talk about and then I'll do my best to deliver it.

I think this is a speech that's worth doing. But if I'm going to give it, I want to have good sources and I want to make sure I keep on message.

Just the other day, we were doing play readings and one play was about a pimp and his daughter. The pimp was a stereotypical pimp though and people laughed as he was violent to the women of the play. Most specifically the males and even some of the females. I couldn't say anything on it because you're not supposed to interrupt a reading and it's not my place to tell an audience how to take a play.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:44 PM   #191
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Okay, let's say you guys are 100% right and I am 100% wrong.

Aside from admitting my wrongness what can I do? What can Occupy Wall Street do to make amends for being so racist and sexist. What would you need to see happen to march with me as a comrade?
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Old 05-04-2012, 09:06 AM   #192
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Okay I'm not sure exactly how much sense this will make as I currently have a fantastic headache and I know that this is far from covering everything but I think it is a good starting place.

Just having an open dialogue would make a huge difference and that is something that must be done on the individual level. Up to this point just about everything that I have seen has been very much a closed discussion, things are explained away or excuses are made, this is not helpful, this only invalidates the experiences people have had. What needs to happen is that if someone comes forward with a negative experience it needs to be embraced as something valid and something worth consideration, because if you validate their experience you are validating them, if you invalidate their experience then you invalidate them. Occupy does not need you to defend it, the people who want to discredit it already have a huge fucking arsenal and have no qualms about straight making shit up, don't worry about them, worry about this person who is telling you that they feel repressed, who feels like they are being treated as worthless.

There also needs to be a discussion with people outside of Occupy, on message boards, facebook, twitter, and every single site for social networking that admits that this shit is going on and that it needs to stop, not "there is a problem with people not realizing their privilege but (excuse)", it needs to just be "there is a problem with people not realizing their privilege, every one of us is part of this problem and we need to dedicate ourselves to fixing it". You need say "I am Despanan and I have privilege" you need to take a hard look at every single interaction you have with people and realize that some of those would be very different if you were a woman or a person of color. I know that there are already people doing this but they are few and far between, I also know that there are a lot of people who think that they are aware of their own privilege but who really only have a general idea of how it affects them which leads to things like them behaving in a privileged manner and then getting all defensive and dismissive when someone calls them on their privilege.

Saya kind of joked earlier about having a privilege confessional but that honestly isn't such a bad idea. Saying that you have privilege is extremely easy but admitting how and when you enjoy the benefits of that privilege can be really hard but it needs to be done. For me, personally, the hardest to recognize is my straight privilege, because I'm not straight, I'm queer, I identify as being queer, I'm open about being queer but I'm married to a man so in all of my interactions with strangers there is an assumption that I am exclusively heterosexual so I enjoy the benefits of being a part of a group that I'm not even in.
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:09 AM   #193
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That is VERY do-able. Versus, Saya, would you agree with this?
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:22 AM   #194
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I agree. I'll try to think of more suggestions but one I've been thinking of is having caucuses and discussions about discrimination within the movement, beyond the general assembly. Its really hard sometimes to even articulate WHY something bothered you, or you don't want to be the only person speaking up (even if its likely that other people are having the same problems) so lots of people don't speak up, or in smaller collectives I know you just don't want to confront a friend. I don't know if you've encountered this but it seems if one person does manage to speak up, suddenly a lot of people had the same issue, but were waiting for someone else to say it or didn't even realize it until it was said. I went to one about discrimination within the LGBTQ movement and easily it was the most therapeutic discussion I had in my life. GAs are bigger and more intimidating, but when you're in a smaller discussion where other people have similar experiences and concerns a lot more can be said. And then they can work on things to bring to the GA as a group. You can also narrow each caucus down by identity group, like lets say have a queer identity caucus, a PoC identity caucus, etc, just schedule them for different times so for people with multiple identity points can go to all the ones that affect them.
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:04 PM   #195
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Excellent! That actually fits in really well with what Occupy is all about, and would work well within our structure. I think that would be something folks here in NYC would really go for, and as it's participatory instead of simply instructional, it would help get people more involved...

ALSO: While I was browsing interoccupy.org (To see if I could arrange an on-line version of this on the site), I found this gem that you guys might be interested in:

http://interoccupy.org/catalyst-proj...esource-guide/

The Catalyst Project

But yeah, participatory discussions on priviledge could be easily done through something like The People's Think Tank working group.
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Old 05-04-2012, 03:22 PM   #196
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I just went to reddit. There's a huge occupywallstreet subreddit there with 30,000 subscribers. I just left this:

What is OWS doing about teaching people about white, male, straight, religious, non-disabled privilege?

Malcom X said that we can't have capitalism without racism. I think that is true. I also think we can not have capitalism without sexism or any other exercise of privilege in a negative manner.

Is there anything in Occupy that is reaching out and opening up this dialogue?

Clearly it's important. I'm not interested in people trying to prove that they don't have certain kinds of privilege or inventing privilege on those that are oppressed to balance it out. I want to know if the most socially privileged of the movement is being taught and illuminated about their privilege so as to avoid alienating would-be comrades.

Thanks for your time, guys.

Is this a good way to start trying to reach out to them? Is that on message? I will clarify if there needs to be any amendments.
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Old 05-04-2012, 03:38 PM   #197
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Holy shit. I just skimmed through a whole bunch of threads there.

We've got people on there trying to make a distinction between capitalism and corporatism.

We've got red scare of the collectivist persuasion.

If they're not representative of Occupy, then I'd be really glad to try to understand why they scream and whoop and holler about May Day but then turn around and preach of the sophistication and the final solution attitude of capitalism.

So far, this shit is pissing me off.
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Old 05-04-2012, 03:48 PM   #198
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Scratch that. That was on their new page. But the hottest threads are apparently very worker friendly so far. It's a start.
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:15 PM   #199
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I don't really know anything about the OWS redditors. I haven't heard anything about them at Occupy, and I have never seen Reddit threads tweeted by the OWS Tweet Boat. It may be that they're primarily armchair activists, and if this is trye it's not surprising they'd be all up ons about capitalism, considering how popular Ron Paul is on Reddit.

You might have better luck with the Kossacks. I've seen their stuff show up on twitter and FB.
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:35 PM   #200
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This was one guy's reply:

"There has been ONE case of **** by an Occupier against another Occupier. All the other cases did not involve Occupiers as the rapist, and some even involved Occupiers as the victims! Claiming Occupy is racist is the most ridiculous claim ever, there are anti-racist (along with anti LGBT discrimination, and feminist) working groups in nearly every Occupation. Not to mention that there are far more African-American Occupiers than there are African-American participants in that other movement. "

This was my reply:

"No I get you. I wouldn't be too quick to get mad yet.

However, this is an interesting thing, right? The media is painting this out to be a bunch of white privileged hipster kids. If they're targeting YOU as a white male, acknowledge their complaints, identify your privilege that they're accusing you of abusing and then don't use your privilege as a weapon for anything. The media is focusing on the whites in the group right now because they're using the idea that white privilege deserves no sympathy and they'd be right about that. So the object of the game is to recognize our privilege be it white privilege, male privilege, religious privilege, straight privilege, able-bodied privilege, ect and by being aware, be able to keep it in check and then they wont have anything to go on.

I'm not an outright accuser. But the accusations that they're making against Occupy such as this is simple. These are things we should AVOID AT ALL COST AT BEING. Therefore, take the critiques as constructive criticism and amend your behavior where the critiques may be relevant.

Take their accusations and use them as examples on what NOT to be. Perhaps YOU do not do this. Perhaps you're not aware of the privileges you have.

We must understand our cultural and social privileges AS WELL as the economic inequality of capitalism or else we can be more easily demonized.
"
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