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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 12-13-2005, 06:51 AM   #51
Blushing Heliophobe
 
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I definitely don't feel that Toung's offence warranted capital punishment...

But yes, there are definitely people out there who deserve to die. Even so...

I think that if there are 1,000 legitimate executions and even 1 faulty, that 1 is just one too much.

Besides, I think death is the easy way out for someone who's guilty.
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Old 12-13-2005, 10:44 AM   #52
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That was 24 years longer than his victims had. And 24 years that the family and friends of his victims spent paying to keep his sorry ass alive, clothed, fed and sheltered. 24 years that he was allowed to spend writing books, becoming famous, winning awards and celebrating in the glories of murdering 4 people. That's what it is, when you boil it all down. When you kill somebody - especially the way he killed those people - you become a murderer. It doesn't matter how much reform you receive, or how many times you repent, or how many times you find jesus, these things do not make you an innocent person. You will never be innocent of killing somebody, once you kill them. Of course he wasn't going to appologize for it, because that would have meant that he was admitting to having killed them.

In the case of that Taung guy in Singapore, it's shitty that he was executed. I never said that drug dealers should walk free. But execution is too much. He didn't kill anyone. However, he knew - or should have known - the penalty for his crimes in that country. He chose to do it anyway. And he was dealt his sentence accordingly.
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Old 12-13-2005, 06:48 PM   #53
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But was there sufficient evidence to support William's murdering of the victims?
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Old 12-14-2005, 06:10 PM   #54
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Are you even familiar with the story, rockandrose? He murdered 4 people execution style. A convenience store clerk, and a viet-namese family of 3 at a motel.

With just a few minutes of searching the net, here are some links that you can read up on more detail, if you're interested in sufficient evidence. I'm sure with a little more looking you'll find several other sites that may even give more detailed info.

http://crime.about.com/od/deathrow/a/tookie2.htm

http://crime.about.com/od/deathrow/a/tookie3.htm

http://crime.about.com/od/deathrow/a/tookie5.htm

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=47647
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Old 12-14-2005, 06:28 PM   #55
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This case is pretty much fresh news to me, in which I discovered from soggypicklemuncher's post.

The information that I've briefly read, I don't quit know whether he did in fact commit the crime, and since I haven't heard of this case during it's earlier stages, I currently don't have much of an opinion of the convicted or of the case. At the moment, all I can say is that this "Tookie" man shouldn't have been sentenced to death. I don't need to elaborate any further, as I've clearly stated my beliefs on death penality many times, earlier in this thread.
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Old 12-14-2005, 06:39 PM   #56
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No, of course not. You're completely right. He should have been allowed to continue writing books and building his fan base, winning more awards. Hell, why even bother having ever arrested the guy? Just slap him on the wrist and tell him that shooting people is bad. Make him promise not to ever, ever do it again and be a good boy. Then send him on his way.

Hell, for that matter, lets just release all our prisoners. After all, it costs tax payers so much money every year, and they've spent so many horrible years in prison with their cable tv and 3 square meals a day. Their right to free education and guaranteed health care. Damn, such torture! How could we have been so cruel to them? So inhumane!

So yes! I say we shut the prisons down. They've learned their lesson and will never kill anybody ever again. And with all that money we'd be saving, we could have better, bigger schools and fresh, paved streets, the list is endless.
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Old 12-14-2005, 06:46 PM   #57
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And vengeance done through the death penality is a good attempt for a deterrent? I think not.

Well, who's idea was it to provide prisioners the luxury of tv and other entertainment elements in a prision cell? Certainly not my idea.
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Old 12-14-2005, 07:02 PM   #58
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Do you think they segregate murderers from other prisoners? Maybe in some penitentiaries, but not in most. They're put in with other violent criminals, until they run out of room.

I don't look at the death penalty as either vengeance or a viable deterrent. Its punishment, plain and simple. There is no deterrent from killing somebody if that's really what someone wants to do. A lot of them believe they'll never be caught anyway, so it doesn't matter to them what 'deterrents' are put in place.

And you can thank the bleeding heart liberals for cable tv and other luxuries in prison. At some point they decided prisoners were being treated unfairly and harsh by forcing them into various labors and denying various luxuries. So little by little prison has grown into a place where now a lot of people look at it as an easy way to get everything handed to them. There are people who don't want out of prison because then they'd have to actually earn their living. When they get out or parolled they deliberately do something that will send them right back to prison because they think its easier in there than out here. And in a lot of ways it is.
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Old 12-14-2005, 07:11 PM   #59
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Yes, death penality is a punishment, but it's unnecessary. There will always be a risk in sentencing an "innocent" defendant, who didn't even commit the damn crime. There have been people locked away in prision for 30 years for a crime they didn't even commit. A crime, especially an indictable one, should be taken seriously and a person's life shouldn't be played even further, as it's bad enough there are murderers to start off with. Hence, I don't necessarily believe in the "eye for eye".
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Old 12-15-2005, 11:44 AM   #60
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Fair enough. You don't believe in the death penalty. I can accept that. My only real problem with people who don't accept the death penalty is that they never offer a viable alternative to it. Keeping a proven murderer in prison for life is not a viable alternative.

I am well aware that there are many people who spend years in prison for crimes they are completely innocent of. That is the fault of the system, the lawyers, investigators, courts, etc. With a mix of just plain bad luck. It irritates the hell out of me and pisses me off when I hear stories about people who are convicted for doing something they obviously didn't do. But it also pisses me off when a proven murderer gets off on some fucking technicality, or gets to spend the rest of their days in the comforts and luxuries of a penitentiary.

One example: An innocent man, of which I don't remember his name, was convicted of murder in Florida sometime in the late 70's or early 80's. Whether or not he was actually put on death row at the time I don't know. The point is, he was innocent, yet he spent close to 20 years or more in prison for it, based on circumstantial evidence. It happened at a night club that he was known to frequent, but he was wasn't there the night of the murder. A struggle outside the club ended up in a guy being shot to death. Witnesses pegged the guy who wasn't there as being the one that did the shooting. He even had his alibi in the form of a friend who had been at the club that night, that went to his house where said shooter was working in his garage at the time of the shooting. Details are sketchy for me to recall now but basically, he was found guilty and put in prison. Years later some kind of new evidence turned up to prove that not only was he innocent but that they had found, without question, who had really shot the other guy to death outside the club. Only problem now, was that the real killer was dead - having been on the losing end of some other altercation a few years prior. So, did Florida humbly appologize for their fuck up in convicting the wrong guy and let the innocent guy out of prison? No. Their response, basically, was that somebody had to pay for the murder, so he remained in prison, trying to get out. Now the technicalities were not as clear-cut as all of that, I am sure due to knots in the legal paperwork. But Florida is - or at least has been in the past - notorious for keeping innocent people in prison even after those people have been found innocent. And just for icing on the cake, the poor guy was beaten and r a p e d repeatedly by his fellow inmates over the course of his 20+ years in prison, so by the time that the report on his case aired, he was HIV+ and not doing so well.

Another example in complete contrast: Ever heard the case of Susan Smith? (at least I believe her first name was Susan - it may have been something like Sharon). In the early 90's she was convicted of killing her two small children, in Rock Hill, SC. She was a divorced mother that claimed she'd been car jacked one night by a black man who forced her out of her car at gun point. Her car was found in a lake, with her two kids still strapped in the back seat. Eventually she confessed. The story was, she was involved with a guy who really wasn't much interested in her because she had kids. So her reasoning was to get rid of her kids. Not just give them over to their father but drowned them in a fucking lake. How much more cold-blooded could one get? And her conviction? She's in prison, yeah - i'm guessing its life. I am sure that due to her confession she escaped the death penalty. But confessions usually do mean a ticket out of the death penalty and on top of that, its extremely rare that women are ever put on death row in this country anyway. Regardless, she spent a lot of that time in prison fucking every prison guard she could get hold of. Last I heard - which has been a few years now - was that she was pregnant again.
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"What if everything around you
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And if you look at your reflection
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What if you could look right through the cracks?
Would you find yourself [or]
Find yourself afraid to see?..." -NIN
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Old 12-18-2005, 10:00 PM   #61
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I know that the death penality in China goes a long way back in history.

I've been watching chinese movies since I was about four, and have seen many old fashioned type of fictional chinese movies, in which the defendant would be sentenced to death, such as having their head sliced off in public. There was cases where he/she would be have their face tattooed or even have their feet amputated. Castration even occured in certain cases.

These type of punishment were actually enforced in China, a long time ago, and many many were punished for crimes that didn't commit. I know that China still enforce the death penality, but I'm not sure if they still enforce their many old fashioned and cruel sentences.

I think there is obviously a problem with their legal system, if "China executes 10,000 people a year".

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/deliver/document/15264.html
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Old 02-08-2006, 07:43 PM   #62
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Fair enough. You don't believe in the death penalty. I can accept that. My only real problem with people who don't accept the death penalty is that they never offer a viable alternative to it. Keeping a proven murderer in prison for life is not a viable alternative.
Um, why not? That's what most civilised countries do, you know. The US's crime rate isn't any higher than Europes(though scarily, the murder rate is 3 to 4 times, this is an issue that needs to be dealth with in a way that doesn't involve killing more people), So what's the problem? The jails should technically be no more full, if you're having issues you should stop jailing people for stupid things.
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Old 02-09-2006, 07:45 AM   #63
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The US has more people in prison than any other country in the world. Thats sheer number AND per capita. Not to mention the fact their laws are so draconian that they recently once again had to reduce the limits for entry into the various law enforcement agencies as they couldn't find anyone who would fit within their own parameters, meaning that the people enforcing their laws can't even keep from breaking them, which says something about the laws themselves.

And anyone who thinks selling heroin is like killing people should also lock up gun dealers for killing kids. I mean, guns don't take out a school yard full of kids, gun owners do. And those who supply guns to them, well, should be held responsible. Oh wait, the bush admin just passed a law giving blanket immunity to all gun manufacturers and sellers just a while back.

Too bad, eh?

I live in a country where marijuana, ghb, and mushrooms are not only legal but sold in stores. Wonder how many thousands of americans are in prison for possessing/selling these substances in their own country? Seems quite silly from a European perspective...but then again so does the death penalty.
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Old 02-09-2006, 07:59 AM   #64
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Right. Your country is seriously the last one to be using as a model for a lenient and fair justice system.

There's a lot of things to criticize about America but really, who do you think you're kidding?

And before you attempt to prove my ignorance of the situation, or my vendetta against the Irish - my husband grew up there and is Irish, so I know secondhand from him what it's really like.

If your country has it's act together so well then why do you even need Sinn Fein?

God, I bet I just opened a can of worms.
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Old 02-10-2006, 12:50 AM   #65
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I just wanted to add my two little cents to this conversation. In my personal opinion, there are some crimes that do deserve the death penatly. Serious cases of child molestation/****, other forms of ****, and drug trafficking. With murder, the person's life is simply over, but in these cases, they're life can be completely shattered for a time or even permanently. In my opinion, ****** a 9 year old girl is far worse then killing a 25 year old man or woman, or even killing the same 9 year old girl. Because at that age it Will permenantly scar the child. And please dont try to tell me this never happens, it does quite a bit, in my town there were 4 cases of it in the past ten years, and my town is extermely small. I'm kinda rambling, but I just wanted to say, some crimes do deserve the death penalty.
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Old 02-10-2006, 06:36 AM   #66
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I didn't take any offense to that. Were you trying to say something bad? I mean, I got the sarcasm, but what exactly are you being sarcastic about? Murder here gets you 5-10 years. We are the epitomy of a leiniate judicial system. The states will give you 15-life.

As far as SF, it's all about self rule - getting foreign invaders out of our politics. What that has to do with our judicial system or why it makes it good/bad you lost me on that there.

I think the US and UK have waaay to heavy penalties for crimes that are not that bad. Of course here we have what some would call light sentences, but look at our rate of re-incarceration - one tenth of the states. Thats because if you put a man away for a few years they don't have as much problem going back into society than ones who get locked away for decades. Anyone who disagrees can check the stats on that one.
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Old 02-10-2006, 06:48 AM   #67
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The US has a lot of policies that I don't agree with. A lot.

But the point I was trying to make is that trying to use your country as a model of stability isn't the best idea, man.

Ireland has one of the rockiest political and civil histories...

I'm not as well versed in politics as some around here (like Loy and Binkie) but you don't have to be well versed to know that.
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Old 02-10-2006, 08:33 AM   #68
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who's talking innocence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder
It doesn't matter how much reform you receive, or how many times you repent, or how many times you find jesus, these things do not make you an innocent person. You will never be innocent of killing somebody, once you kill them. Of course he wasn't going to appologize for it, because that would have meant that he was admitting to having killed them.
People also don't apologise for crimes that they don't commit. The international reporting of this story hasn't made it obvious that he did do what he was accused of.

As to the innocence question in general - he was the leader (and founder) of a gang, but since then he's worked against that whole system. How many people's lives has he saved by convincing them not to take the gang path?
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Old 02-10-2006, 08:37 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by soggypicklemuncher
Capital punishment is murder, about as premeditated as a killing can be. There are people who have done some horrible things, but hatred is a dangerous thing. It can turn people vengeful and drive them to do things as bad as the crime they are punishing.
Yep - murder can never be justified. Killing can only be justified in self-defence, but killing someone who's behind bars, has no weapons, etc is not self-defence (obviously).

I always look on the latest report of state-sponsored murder from the USA in the same light as beheadings in other countries (and generally they get reported in a similar manner too).

And because I know someone will take that the wrong way - I do only mean the beheadings as a result of criminal misdeeds, not politically motivated executions.
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Old 02-10-2006, 08:38 AM   #70
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argument

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder
No, of course not. You're completely right. He should have been allowed to continue writing books and building his fan base, winning more awards. Hell, why even bother having ever arrested the guy? Just slap him on the wrist and tell him that shooting people is bad. Make him promise not to ever, ever do it again and be a good boy. Then send him on his way.
I was going to spend some actual time responding to your points, but then I realised you didn't have any. It'd be a waste of my time responding to a straw man argument...
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Old 02-10-2006, 08:40 AM   #71
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Bah!

Once you kill someone they're dead. Who gives a shit if the fuckers 'find god' or 'save lives'(supposedly) while they're behind bars.

Going with your logic, sheridan, why punish anyone, huh?

If you murder someone, you should die.

If you steal someone's car, they get yours.

Sounds fair to me.
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Old 02-10-2006, 08:41 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder
There are people who don't want out of prison because then they'd have to actually earn their living. When they get out or parolled they deliberately do something that will send them right back to prison because they think its easier in there than out here. And in a lot of ways it is.
There are people in prison (and homeless, on the streets) who don't know how to integrate into regular society - I'm talking about everyday things like paying bills, cooking, doing the washing. If you've been in a cage since before you were legally an adult and you're now in your thirties then how are you going to cope with that culture shock? Your simplistic statement could be solved pretty easily by properly rehabilitating prisoners before their release.
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Old 02-10-2006, 08:51 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by sheridan
There are people in prison (and homeless, on the streets) who don't know how to integrate into regular society - I'm talking about everyday things like paying bills, cooking, doing the washing. If you've been in a cage since before you were legally an adult and you're now in your thirties then how are you going to cope with that culture shock? Your simplistic statement could be solved pretty easily by properly rehabilitating prisoners before their release.

There are prisoners that I'd be very happy to see just shot. If they can't function in normal society then that's not where they need to be.

I'd rather not have my children on the same streets as former rapists/molesters/killers.

There are places for people like that.

Graves.
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Old 02-10-2006, 08:51 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Blushing Heliophobe
Right. Your country is seriously the last one to be using as a model for a lenient and fair justice system.

There's a lot of things to criticize about America but really, who do you think you're kidding?

And before you attempt to prove my ignorance of the situation, or my vendetta against the Irish - my husband grew up there and is Irish, so I know secondhand from him what it's really like.

If your country has it's act together so well then why do you even need Sinn Fein?

God, I bet I just opened a can of worms.
Err..

Word of Caution..

We've been down that road with Sternn, many many times.

He is an admitted member of the Sinn Fein, and a FORMER resident of the Good ol' UsofA.

He has a real hard-on for Bush, and no love lost for our Government.

Read a bit of his Post History to get a feel for his political views.

I was kind of hoping he'd gotten tired of beating the US to death, because he CAN be quite personable when he isn't bashing our government.

But alas, some things never change.

I like the version of CptSternn BETTER that digs Bruce Campbell and good Electronic Music.

*Pokes Sternn*
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Old 02-10-2006, 08:53 AM   #75
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He's not a bad fellow, when he isn't following politics.

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