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Old 03-20-2005, 12:25 AM   #1
Granny-like_the_apple
 
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Terry Schiavo's Feeding Tube Removed

I don't know how many people have heard of this whole issue of whether or not Terry Schiavo's feeding tube should be removed, and heard of it before a few days ago when news coverage absolutely exploded, but I want to know what other people think about it. For anyone who doesn't know that much about it, here are a few links to articles that offer some history and describe the arguments on both sides: Newsweek, NYT, Christian Science Monitor, and FOX. (Points to the person who spots the most biased article of these four!) And more: a commentary pro-Michael Schiavo, her husband who wants the feeding tube removed, a commentary pro-parents, who want the tube put back in, and a neutral blog by a Florida lawyer not personally involved with the case. It's a lot, but there's a lot to know.

So-tube in or out? What do you think?
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Old 03-20-2005, 01:50 AM   #2
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i wondered when this would hit.

i have a few thoughts.

this woman died, essentially, more than a decade ago. medical science has kept her body functioning, maintained her biological processes in motion, but as for life - i don't agree. no one is inviting her out to dinner, calling her on the phone, swapping gossip with her about folks in her town, laughing with her, crying with her, taking her for walks in the sun or the rain, having a two-way conversation with her. she's not reading, writing, waxing poetic about her life experiences, moving her arms and legs, conversing, and as far as anyone can tell - thinking. the greatest horror of this story would be to find out that her mind is in fact functioning and she has somehow been aware of her vegetative state for the last 15 years. to the best of medicine's knowledge, that is not the case - and for this, it's not even the point.

michael schiavo has said his wife never wanted to live if extraordinary measures needed to be taken to keep her alive. 19 judges have sided with him over the past 15 years. terri shiavo's parents have blocked the removal of her tube and fought to have it reinserted twice after it was ordered removed in the past. jeb bush enacted a law to keep her alive. the supreme court of florida overturned that law. medicine says she is in a persistent vegetative state. her parents say she is very much alive and want to care for her. whatever.

terri schiavo has become a crusade for those who want her to remain alive - and that includes her parents. she is no longer a person. 4 people were arrested today for trying to bring bread and water into her room - food and drink she hasn't been able to consume on her own for the past 15 years - and they did that because they, like most, have no true conception of her status.

i saw pictures today of people acting out hysterically outside the nursing home where she is being kept. some in the pictures were reverends - people who supposedly believe in a god who welcomes the souls of those departed from the earth. they were wailing and weeping and throwing themselves on the ground, praying for mankind to intervene on schiavo's behalf. i didn't understand that. then i've read that her parents are devout christians - again, people believing in a god who welcomes the soul of departed beings. i didn't understand that, either - the vigorous fight for mankind to intervene. this is not a woman who has been in a vegetative state for a short time with a possible chance of recovery. she's been "dead" for fifteen years with no chance of recovery. just because medicine CAN keep her in a functioning state doesn't mean it SHOULD. her parents have said she can follow a baloon in the room with her eyes, or at least that she did at some point. i say, if that's all she can do and can actually process some sort of awareness - they're torturing the shit out of her. and for what? really?

congress has now decided to jump on the bandwagon and i believe that means her feeding tube will be reinserted until a decision can be reached at the federal level. that might be wrong (about the tube), but i think that was the outcome of the government's decision to act.

terri schiavo is "dead". she's never going to be "alive" again, no matter what anyone does, says, brings her, floats in her room, feeds her, or whatever. what they've done to that woman thus far is disgusting, in my opinion and what they continue to do to her is barbaric.

as for congress getting involved - there's a bigger issue at hand, that of convicted sex offenders getting out of jail and hurting or killing once again. 9 y.o. jessica lunsford was abducted from her home, killed and hidden by a convicted sex offender who was out of jail. how many more times does this have to happen before congress decides to step up to the plate here? the schiavo thing is an issue in florida. local government should be handling that. convicted sex offenders abducting, ****** and murdering children is a national problem. the federal government should be dealing with that instead. look at the coverage for schiavo - it's everywhere and there are photos of god knows how many people protesting the removal of her tube.

then look at the coverage for jessica - a kid who had a true life ahead of her and what do you find? shots of her parents only and spotty coverage. there are other people who are up in arms about her murder, but the masses aren't displayed. it's a subtle hint at what "the news" thinks is important. and it's a fuckin' shame.

even if they put the tube back in, schiavo is gonna die-die at some point, as in no more biological functioning. medical science can only go so far. getting rid of sex offenders when they show their demonic heads is something that would truly benefit society in terms of keeping our kids a little safer. the way the system works now does nothing to deter those savage animals. a dog ravages a child and it gets put down. a human ravages a child and he gets a few years in prison before he's back on the street.

i know the topic was terri schiavo and not jessica lunsford, but in terms of importance - i think the death of a little girl and the reason it happened trumps the ongoing battle to keep a "dead" woman warm.

rest in peace, jessica.

and for mrs. schiavo - i hope you soon get to rest in peace for real.
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Old 03-20-2005, 02:28 AM   #3
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Yeah, I've been hearing about this travesty for quite awhile now.

I think the reason it's making so much noise in the news is because it appears to be a grey area. She's not on any other life support except the feeding tubes. So alot of people think it's not life support. She's not "Brain Dead", and there are no machines breathing for her, or keeping her heart pumping.

But the fact of the matter is, even if there aren't any machines pumping her heart, or her lungs, she is still being kept alive by artificial means. Take away her feeding tube, and she dies. Not quickly, like someone who is on a heart/lung machine...but death is still imminent.

People think that dying this way is cruel and painful. But from what I understand, there are two factors involved. First, she'd dehidrate before she starved, and in that, she would fall into a coma, and then die peacefully (E_E, you would be better at telling me if this were the case). The other factor is, in her persistant vegitative state, she is not going to be aware of what's happening anyway, and very likely wouldn't feel any discomfort.

But there is something that really galls me about this whole sordid affair...and that's the people who claim that removing the tube is interfering with "God's Will".

WTF?! And using science to keep her corpse warm ISN'T?!

-Logically-, it would appear that God already made his decision 15 years ago. Logically...I would not be so arrogant as to assume I know what a Diety really had in mind.

You know, I read alot about this. Michael Shiavo is an asshole, by all accounts. He was mentally abusive, and his mind games pushed Terri into an eating disorder that caused this pathetic state she's in. So, in a sense, he could be guilty of her death.....-marginally- (And no, I'm not making light of mental abuse...it's as horrific to the victims as physical abuse...but the scars are just not as obvious).

But you know something? I think her parents could be considered just as guilty. This all strikes me as more of a power play, than grief-stricken parents who just cannot accept that their baby is dead.

Apparently, about 5 years after Terri's illness put her in the hospital, someone at the behest of the parents (or the parents, themselves, I don't remember which), had offered Michael Shiavo a million dollars to get out of Terri's life entirely, and let her parents have complete control over her disposition.

He turned it down.

Now, make of that what you will. Was he determined to keep fighting to give Terri what she wanted? Or was in determined to battle her parents to the bitter end, because he did not want to lose?

Doesn't matter.

The person caught in the middle of this doesn't have a say. So she remains in the twilight because people are stupid and selfish, and the government of Florida likes to interfere.

Yes, E_E I agree with your remarks about sexual predators. Its a much more important issue than one poor woman stuck in limbo. Pull the plug, let her die, and let's get to doing something really worthwile, like placing sexual predators in prison permanently...and preferably in general population.
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Old 03-20-2005, 02:57 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drgnlvr

Yes, E_E I agree with your remarks about sexual predators. Its a much more important issue than one poor woman stuck in limbo. Pull the plug, let her die, and let's get to doing something really worthwile, like placing sexual predators in prison permanently...and preferably in general population.
I do hope you're not serious about that-- what about those falsely accused? It DOES happen.

Anyway-- on the subject of Terri Schiavo, I'm sort of unsure. I don't believe it is our place as humans to decide when we or anyone else dies. That's for God to decide. But then, on the other hand... It was unnatural to be keeping her alive in the first place. I'm not quite sure where I draw the line between helpful medicine and medicine that goes too far, but I believe in this case, it's gone too far.
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Old 03-20-2005, 03:27 AM   #5
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I do hope you're not serious about that-- what about those falsely accused? It DOES happen.
if i had my way, they'd be killed outright. conviction = death. there is no rehab. children are killed, there's a small respite while they're placed in prison and then children are killed again when they're released. the falsely accused? ha. why don't we get rid of jails, prisons and the courts altogether so no one ever gets falsely accused? in fact, why not get rid of the police while we're at it? and the jurors - those who provide the guilt / innocent verdict - we could prosecute all of them since they've sent the wrong people away and there must be some crime committed because of that. the falsely accused...

you want to see the greatest gathering of innocent men ever? visit a prison. they'll all tell you - they're innocent.

i worked in a prison. sadly, dragon, the general population deterrent is old school. the number of **********, sex offenders and child predators have risen sufficiently so that they have their own "gang" and there's safety in numbers.
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Old 03-20-2005, 06:14 AM   #6
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The thing that people commonly get confused is that Terri is not braindead. If you're braindead, you have no electrical activity going on in your brain, which means there's nothing to tell your heart to beat or your diaphram to help work your lungs. Only part of her brain is damaged (not non-functioning), which controls sophisticated things like speech and motorskils (cognitive neurological functions).

So this woman is still there to some extent. She is able to recognize family members that visit her. She is responsive to real world things. She laughs, she cries like you and I. Not at bizarre random moments either like when no one is around. She's responsive to things in this world. She has brain activity... enough obviously to speak the words "Mom" and "Dad" or immitate the blowing of a kiss.

My personal stance is that it's inhumane to starve someone like that to death They'd be aware of the pain involved in being starved to death and that doesn't just happen overnight. It takes days, even for dehydration.
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Old 03-20-2005, 07:21 AM   #7
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Even though this whole thread makes me want to vomit, and I have no business or interest in placing a value on this person's barely-there state of existence, I would say this: I'm pro euthanasia. Not by starving someone slowly, but quickly and humanely, I'm for it. And those religious freaks wailing outside the hospital, so full of their own moral superiority, can go fuck themselves. Those are the same nutty assholes who would throw pig's blood on mothers coming out of the abortion clinic.
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Old 03-20-2005, 01:57 PM   #8
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I agree with Binkie, yet again.

What made me decide, was Kate Adamson, and her book, Kate's Journey.

Just in case you don't feel like clicking that link, here's a small blurb:

I was totally paralyzed by a severe double brainstem stroke on June 29, 1995.

One day I was active, vibrant, physically fit and starting a fitness training business; a happy mother of two toddlers; living in a beautiful five-bedroom home in an exclusive California neighborhood. The most difficult matter on my mind was organizing tomorrow’s shopping luncheon with my girlfriends.

The next morning I was in intensive care completely paralyzed. I could do nothing. I was totally trapped in my body screaming, silently, helplessly.

But wait – was I totally paralyzed? Was I really helpless? Soon after my stroke, I became aware that I could blink. There. I could do one thing. Could I do anything else? Yes, I could think.

If I could blink, that meant I could communicate. I could blink and think – the world was mine! If I had focused on what I could not do, the list was endless – and I might never have realized that I could communicate. That was the beginning of my new life as a speaker and author.



Kate in 1995


Kate almost 10 years later.



windows media 350k
Real Player 350k
QuickTime 350k
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Old 03-20-2005, 04:22 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gingerbreadwench
I do hope you're not serious about that-- what about those falsely accused? It DOES happen.
No, no, no! I'm talking -real- sexual predators, not some poor schmuck who let the little head do his thinking for him, and slept with a 15 y/o who claimed to be 18, or the poor guy who is -accused- of ****, by some psycho hose-beast. Cases like these are generally weak, at best, and with DNA testing, it's alot easier to prove that the guy is innocent. But even still, yes, I know some innocent guys are still going to slip through the cracks, and end up in prison. That's why I say life, not the death penalty. As long as the guy never admits to anything in a plea to lower his sentence, he can continue to appeal.

And yeah, I know this happens. Which is why convictions for this kind of thing is so hard to come by, and so hard to prove. But letting a -known- sexual offender run around loose after...at best...an 8 year stint, just so he can continue to commit his crimes? Nope. Sorry. Real sexual predators -CANNOT- be rehabilitated, and they have no business out amoung the rest of society, because of that.
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Old 03-20-2005, 04:36 PM   #10
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I don't know all the details about this, but in any case I have something to say. If she is conscious and can think, or is conscious of people around her and can express emotions, but not express herself, then it would well, be wrong to kill her slowly. If she were utterly devoid of thought, and was just a shell of a past being, and just rotting like a vegatable in the sun, then I think they can kill her, but it would be much much better to do it quickly, and not to starve her to death.

This case in particular though, what are the husband's motives? If they are in good standing, as in they are obviously not based on self-interest, then it might be OK. The biggest thing is, when someone says "It's in his/her best interest," how should they know? They aren't the ones lying in bed dieing slowly with or without a feeding tube.

As it stands in my knowledge, without knowing anyone's motives, I personally think it would not be proper to have a court decide what to be done with someone's daughter or wife, it should be up to the family. And if they can't come to a conclusion on their own, it should be left up to the parents. All in all, it's their affair, not ours. We all die in the end, and it would be better to leave this family to their own devices, not some political court.

*note: I'm totally ignorant on this case, this is all based off of scant evidence and personal feelings.. don't read into it any more than you should, and it's up to you to decide how far you should read into it.
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Old 03-20-2005, 09:14 PM   #11
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I was going to write a long post responding to everyone else in detail, explaining how disgusted I am at the (mostly) Republicans who are trying to exploit a personal tragedy for political reasons, how sad this whole situation is, but it doesn't really matter. This is not an issue that should be decided by public opinion, last-ditch legislative attempts to stave off her death, the case of one woman who recovered after being in a persistent vegetative state (for five months, not fifteen years), or anything except the one thing that matters here: the law. It doesn't matter whether or not her death will be painful or painless. It doesn't matter if she's in a persistent vegetative state or has some higher cognitive functions. It doesn't matter what her parents want, it doesn't matter what Jeb Bush wants, it doesn't matter what the crowds outside the hospice want, and it doesn't even matter what her husband wants. It only matters, legally and morally, what Terry Schiavo would have wanted. What did she want? Well:

"Florida law calls for the trial court to determine what Terri would chose to do in this situation, and after a trial hard fought by Terri's husband and her family, where each side was given the opportunity to present its best case about what Terri would do, the court determined the evidence was clear and convincing that Terri would chose not to continue living by the affirmative intervention of modern medicine -- that she would chose to have her feeding tube disconnected. In a second trial, brought about by Terri's family's claims new therapies could restore her and that the existence of such a therapy would make her "change her mind," the trial court again heard evidence from all sides and determined that no new therapy presented any reasonable chance of restoring Terri's brain function. The propriety of these decisions -- from the sufficiency of the evidence to the appropriateness of the procedures used -- has been unanimously upheld on appeal each time."

I read the 2000 court decision here, the decision that said the tube should be removed, and the 2001 appeal decision here. Anyone who thinks that her husband is an asshole who just wants money, that her death will undoubtedly be painful, and/or that the feeding tube should be reinserted, I suggest you read at least the 2000 decision. It was about what she would have wanted. The courts have repeatedly and consistently found that she would want the tube removed. I'm with the law.
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Old 03-20-2005, 11:37 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drgnlvr
You know, I read alot about this. Michael Shiavo is an asshole, by all accounts. He was mentally abusive, and his mind games pushed Terri into an eating disorder that caused this pathetic state she's in. So, in a sense, he could be guilty of her death.....-marginally-
One more thing-what have you been reading? Can you provide any links to this? Because I've been reading official reports and court decisions, and I've never seen anything like that anywhere. From the Wolfson report: "Through the age of 18, Theresa was, according to her parents, very overweight, until she chose to lose weight with the guidance of a physician. She dropped from 250 pounds to around 150 pounds, at which time she met Michael Schiavo. They dated for many months and married in November of 1984. The Schiavo and Schindler families were close and friendly. [...] About three years later, without the apparent knowledge of her parents, Theresa and Michael sought assistance in becoming pregnant through an obstetrician who specialized in fertility services. For over a year, Theresa and Michael received fertility services and counseling in order to enhance their strongly held desire to have a child. By this time, Theresa’s weight had dropped even further, to 110 pounds. She was very proud of her fabulous figure and her stunning appearance, wearing bikini bathing suits for the first time and taking great pride in her improved good looks. Testimony and photographs bare witness to these facts."

It seems like she was already in the mindset that she needed to lose weight long before she met her husband. I think blaming him is hugely unfair.

Quote:
But you know something? I think her parents could be considered just as guilty. This all strikes me as more of a power play, than grief-stricken parents who just cannot accept that their baby is dead.
I can understand thinking like that, but every official account that I've read has had the opinion that they are sincere in this, not doing it for money or anything.
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Old 03-21-2005, 04:58 AM   #13
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The two biggest factor here that they brought out in court is this:

1. She has been this way for over 10 years. If she was going to recover, you think it would have happened by now. I think 10 years is more than enough time to show SOME improvement.

2. No one in the history of the world with her condition has ever recovered. There have been similar cases, but with the amount of brain injury she has, NO ONE has ever recovered.

And most importantly, I think a husband or wife should have more say so than the parents legally. In a similar situation, I think most woul like to think your soul mate can make the call, the person who you share your home, bed, and life with rather than the 'rents.

And for those who think the man is doing it for the money, medical history shows it was an accident, nothing more. Had he some way been implicated in the injury I'd say he might have alterior motives, but there has never been that accusation.

Sorta off topic, but does anyone else see the irony in a country that is seeing hundreds die in a war every month, killing people monthly in prisons, and giving police the right to shoot first in some states, then spending millions of dollars and hundreds of congressional man hours in fighting for the life of a vegetable? I mean, they didn't put this much work into the patriot act or the repealing of the clean air act.
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Old 03-21-2005, 05:12 AM   #14
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At the risk of being (more) unpopular, todays funniest link from FARK...

http://www.whitehouse.org/news/2005/031905.asp
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Old 03-21-2005, 06:38 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Granny-like_the_apple
This is not an issue that should be decided by ... the case of one woman who recovered after being in a persistent vegetative state (for five months, not fifteen years
Actually, Al was right on the money with that comparison. Perhaps the time frame would not be the same, but something many people overlook, don't realize, or flat out ignore, is the fact that dozens upon dozens of highly recognized doctors have come out and said that Shaivo can recover from this through rehabilitory and therapy treatments to where she can talk and move around freely. So why hasn't she recieved any of these treatments since as far back as 1991? Because Michael Shiavo, the loving husband that only wants what's best for Terri, has repeately said no to the treatments being administered.

So that whole "Terri's not going to get better" crap is just that; crap. She won't get better because Micheal won't let doctors rehabilitate her.

Another thing people don't look at is the fact that Michael has what amounts to a second wife. He has a fiance and has had two kids with her. So why doesn't he just divorce Terri and marry this other woman? Well if he does that, how is he going to collect on the life insurance when Terri kicks the bucket? Another funny thing is that when doctors ruled out the cause of Terri's state being due to a heart attack, they did a bone scan that reveiled a "history of trauma" to the skull. And there are reports now that nurses overheard Mike say such loving remarks as, "when is that bitch going to die?" So, there's some food for thought on why this isn't just about what Michael Shiavo says in court to a judge. This woman is able to walk and talk again (according to MANY highly recognize medical doctors), but can't because Michael has taken the necessary steps to ensure she will not recieve medical therapy to do so. She's now inevitably in this state and he wants the "plug pulled."
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Old 03-21-2005, 08:00 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Binkie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Granny-like_the_apple
This is not an issue that should be decided by ... the case of one woman who recovered after being in a persistent vegetative state (for five months, not fifteen years
Actually, Al was right on the money with that comparison. Perhaps the time frame would not be the same, but something many people overlook, don't realize, or flat out ignore, is the fact that dozens upon dozens of highly recognized doctors have come out and said that Shaivo can recover from this through rehabilitory and therapy treatments to where she can talk and move around freely. So why hasn't she recieved any of these treatments since as far back as 1991? Because Michael Shiavo, the loving husband that only wants what's best for Terri, has repeately said no to the treatments being administered.

So that whole "Terri's not going to get better" crap is just that; crap. She won't get better because Micheal won't let doctors rehabilitate her.
Actually, what you just said is crap.

From the Wolfson report: "Theresa spent two and a half months as an inpatient at Humana Northside Hospital, eventually emerging from her coma state, but not recovering consciousness. On 12 May 1990, following extensive testing, therapy and observation, she was discharged to the College Park skilled care and rehabilitation facility. Forty-nine days later, she was transferred again to Bayfront Hospital for additional, aggressive rehabilitation efforts. In September of 1990, she was brought home, but following only three weeks, she was returned to the College Park facility because the “family was overwhelmed by Terry’s care needs.”

On 18 June 1990, Michael was formally appointed by the court to serve as Theresa’s legal guardian, because she was adjudicated to be incompetent by law. Michael’s appointment was undisputed by the parties.

The clinical records within the massive case file indicate that Theresa was not responsive to neurological and swallowing tests. She received regular and intense physical, occupational and speech therapies.

Theresa’s husband, Michael Schiavo and her mother, Mary Schindler, were virtual partners in their care of and dedication to Theresa. There is no question but that complete trust, mutual caring, explicit love and a common goal of caring for and rehabilitating Theresa, were the shared intentions of Michael Shiavo and the Schindlers.

In late Autumn of 1990, following months of therapy and testing, formal diagnoses of persistent vegetative state with no evidence of improvement, Michael took Theresa to California, where she received an experimental thalamic stimulator implant in her brain. Michael remained in California caring for Theresa during a period of several months and returned to Florida with her in January of 1991. Theresa was transferred to the Mediplex Rehabilitation Center in Brandon, where she received 24 hour skilled care, physical, occupational, speech and recreational therapies.

Despite aggressive therapies, physician and other clinical assessments consistently revealed no functional abilities, only reflexive, rather than cognitive movements, random eye opening, no communication system and little change cognitively or functionally.

On 19 July 1991 Theresa was transferred to the Sable Palms skilled care facility. Periodic neurological exams, regular and aggressive physical, occupational and speech therapy continued through 1994.

After the malpractice case judgment, evidence of disaffection between the Schindlers and Michael Schiavo openly emerged for the first time. The Schindlers petitioned the court to remove Michael as Guardian. They made allegations that he was not caring for Theresa, and that his behavior was disruptive to Theresa’s treatment and condition.

Proceedings concluded that there was no basis for the removal of Michael as Guardian Further, it was determined that he had been very aggressive and attentive in his care of Theresa. His demanding concern for her well being and meticulous care by the nursing home earned him the characterization by the administrator as “a nursing home administrator’s nightmare”. It is notable that through more than thirteen years after Theresa’s collapse, she has never had a bedsore.

By 1994, Michael’s attitude and perspective about Theresa’s condition changed. During the previous four years, he had insistently held to the premise that Theresa could recover and the evidence is incontrovertible that he gave his heart and soul to her treatment and care. This was in the face of consistent medical reports indicating that there was little or no likelihood for her improvement.

In early 1994 Theresa contracted a urinary tract infection and Michael, in consultation with Theresa’s treating physician, elected not to treat the infection and simultaneously imposed a “do not resuscitate” order should Theresa experience cardiac arrest. When the nursing facility initiated an intervention to challenge this decision, Michael cancelled the orders. Following the incident involving the infection, Theresa was transferred to another skilled nursing facility.

Michael’s decision not to treat was based upon discussions and consultation with Theresa’s doctor, and was predicated on his reasoned belief that there was no longer any hope for Theresa’s recovery. It had taken Michael more than three years to accommodate this reality and he was beginning to accept the idea of allowing Theresa to die naturally rather than remain in the non-cognitive, vegetative state."

"As part of the first challenge to Michael’s Guardianship, the court appointed John H. Pecarek as Guardian Ad Litem to determine if there had been any abuse by Michael Schiavo. His report, issued 1 March 1994, found no inappropriate actions and indicated that Michael had been very attentive to Theresa. After two more years of legal contention, the Schindlers action against Michael was dismissed with prejudice. Efforts to remove Michael as Guardian were attempted in subsequent years, without success."

Quote:
Another thing people don't look at is the fact that Michael has what amounts to a second wife.
"It took Michael a long time to consider the prospect of getting on with his life – something he was actively encouraged to do by the Schindlers, long before enmity tore them apart. He was even encouraged by the Schindlers to date, and introduced his in-law family to women he was dating."

Quote:
So why doesn't he just divorce Terri and marry this other woman? Well if he does that, how is he going to collect on the life insurance when Terri kicks the bucket?
"Mr. Pearse documents the evolving disaffections between the Schindlers and Michael Schiavo. He concludes that Michael Schiavo’s testimony regarding the basis for his decision to withdraw life support – a conversation he had with his wife, Theresa, was not clear and convincing, and that potential conflicts of interest regarding the disposition of residual funds in Theresa’s trust account following her death affected Michael and the Schindlers – but he placed greater emphasis on the impact it might have had on Michael’s decision to discontinue artificial life support. At the time of Mr. Pearse’s report, more than $700,000 remained in the guardianship estate."

"In response to Mr. Pearse’s report, Michael Schiavo filed a Suggestion of Bias against Mr. Pearse. This document notes that Mr. Pearse failed to mention in his report that Michael Schiavo had earlier, formally offered to divest himself entirely of his financial interest in the guardianship estate. The criticism continues to note that Mr. Pearse’s concern about abuse of inheritance potential was directly solely at Michael, not at the Schindlers in the event they might become the heirs and also choose to terminate artificial life support. Further, significant chronological deficits and factual errors are noted, detracting from and prejudicing the objective credibility of Mr. Pearse’s report.

The Suggestion of Bias challenges premises and findings of Mr. Pearse, establishing a well pleaded case for bias.

In February of 1999, Mr. Pearse tendered his petition for additional authority or discharge. He was discharged in June of 1999 and no new Guardian Ad Litem was named."

Quote:
This woman is able to walk and talk again (according to MANY highly recognize medical doctors), but can't because Michael has taken the necessary steps to ensure she will not recieve medical therapy to do so. She's now inevitably in this state and he wants the "plug pulled."
"Fresh and exhaustive motions regarding new evidence were again crafted and proffered to the trial court by the Schindlers resulting in a lengthy hearing. Affidavits from medical doctors and others alleged that Theresa’s condition could be improved.

In particular, the sworn statement of a single, osteopathic physician, Dr. Webber, claimed that he could improve Theresa’s condition and had done so in like and similar cases.

The quality of evidence in this affidavit was marginal, but the court allowed it to create a colorable entitlement to additional medical review. The case was remanded to the trial court with the charge that each side would select two expert physicians (a neurologist or a neurosurgeon, according to the court) and agree between them regarding a fifth, and if they could not agree on the fifth, the court would select it.

By May of 2002, the physicians were selected by both sides, but no agreement could be reached about a fifth, so the court selected one. Curiously and surprisingly, Dr. Webber, who had served as the basis for this entire process at the 2nd DCA, did not participate in the exams or the procedure.

Each of the physicians was afforded access to Theresa for the purpose of conducting a thorough examination. Video tape recordings were made of some of the examinations along with segments in which family members interacted with Theresa. The physicians were deposed and proffered testimony regarding their findings.

Written reports of the examinations were prepared by all five physicians, and a very detailed hearing was held in October of 2002.

The clinical evidence presented by the five physicians reflected their examinations and reviews of the medical records. Four of the physicians were board certified in neurology, as suggested by the court, and one physician was board certified in radiology and hyperbaric medicine. All of the physicians had excellent pedigrees of medical training.

The scientific quality, value and relevance of the testimony varied. The two neurologists testifying for Michael Schiavo provided strong, academically based, and scientifically supported evidence that was reasonably deemed clear and convincing by the court. Of the two physicians testifying for the Schindlers, only one was a neurologist, the other was a radiologist/hyperbaric physician. The testimony of the Schindler’s physicians was substantially anecdotal, and was reasonably deemed to be not clear and convincing.

The fifth physician, chosen by the court because the two parties could not agree, presented scientifically grounded, academically based evidence that was reasonably deemed to be clear and convincing by the court.

Following exhaustive testimony and the viewing of video tapes, the trial court concluded that no substantial evidence had been presented to indicate any promising treatment that might improve Theresa’s cognition. The court sought to glean scientific, case, research-based foundations for the contentions of the Schindler’s physician experts, but received principally anecdotal information.

Evidence presented by Michael Schiavo’s two physicians and the fifth physician selected by the court was reasonably deemed clear and convincing in support of Theresa being in a persistent vegetative state with no hope for improvement."
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Old 03-21-2005, 08:02 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn
Sorta off topic, but does anyone else see the irony in a country that is seeing hundreds die in a war every month, killing people monthly in prisons, and giving police the right to shoot first in some states, then spending millions of dollars and hundreds of congressional man hours in fighting for the life of a vegetable? I mean, they didn't put this much work into the patriot act or the repealing of the clean air act.
Sad. Sternn can't even pretend to not be obsessed with America's politics. He can't even bring it up appropriately.


I find the irony in the fact that a guy who has never served in the military is obsessed with it.
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Old 03-21-2005, 09:11 AM   #18
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I say that if there's absolutely no hope of any improvement then take the tube out.BUT!,I think she should be euthanized.We kill animals and serial killers humanely, why not this woman?Doesn't she deserve a painless death?

I think it's ridiculous that Shiavo and another local man have gotten so much help staying 'alive', yet the plug was pulled on a child recently who was in the same condition as far as never being able to recover.Do we put more importance on the life of an adult than a child's?Cuz that's exactly how it looks to me.I think it's stupid to give one person help and not another, but I think they should all be helped into a painless death.

This Shiavo thing has gotten my husband to confess that, agianst my wishes, he would choose to keep me alive.I say, if I'm dead let me die don't hang onto my empty shell.It'd be the same as keeping a corpse around the house.
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Old 03-21-2005, 10:30 AM   #19
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binkie -

i've respected every post of yours i've read up 'til now, mostly because you're well read and well informed - however this last veered somewhere off the map of your consistent astuteness.

there's no comparison between a coma and severe brain damage. while symptomatically, they may coincide - etiologically, they are very different and thusly, the outcomes or resolution of each, if one can be reached, is different as well. coma is reversible, brain damage is not and will continue to be non-reversible until we have the capacity to rebuld nervous tissue.

the "dozens upon dozens of highly recognized doctors have come out and said that Shaivo can recover from this through rehabilitory and therapy treatments to where she can talk and move around freely" comment is just false, as far as i'm been able to determine. where did you get that information? i'd be interested to read what these "highly recognized doctors" had to say on record with their professional reputations in the spot light.

terri schiavo won't get better. michael schiavo is not her doctor and does not commandeer her medical care. doctors, nurses, social workers, etc. are responsible for her care. lay people are not in charge of assessing, determining, outlining and perpetrating plans of care. that's not the way medicine works in this country.

terri schiavo has been in a persistent vegetative state for 15 years. michael schiavo would be a fool, if not morbidly bizarre, if he had not taken up with someone else - especially when he's been told there's no chance for her to recover. this isn't a movie. this is real life. whatever their relationship prior to her present state - does it matter? really? marriages come in all shapes and sizes, gentle, rough, whatever. there are only two people who know what went on behind closed doors and one of them is in a persistent vegetative state. everything else is just conjecture.

"able to walk and talk again"?
"can recover from this through rehabilitory and therapy treatments to where she can talk and move around freely"

i'd like to read that report.
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Old 03-21-2005, 11:16 AM   #20
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"It is notable that through more than thirteen years after Theresa’s collapse, she has never had a bedsore."

everything else aside - that's pretty fuckin' impressive.
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Old 03-21-2005, 01:21 PM   #21
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Ya know, I promised myself I would not comment on this thread.

But there has been some remarks made that frankly, turn my fucking stomach.

So here I am, and today Boys and Girls, I am going to tell you about 'Vegetables.'

My brother Donnie was born in 1976.

He was a C-section birth because of problems my mother had delivering naturally. He was born normal in every way. Policy at the time was that ALL C-section births were to be monitored in an incubator in the nursery for the first 72 hours of life.

Donnie was placed however in a bassinet with all of the other babies in the nursery.

Shortly after, Amniotic fluid that was not properly suctioned out of his lungs at birth, began to choke him.

The nurse did not notice.

He stopped breathing, which finally caught the nurses attention.

Only enough so that she THUMPED HIM ON THE FOOT to stimulate his breathing again.

She went and sat back down and DID NOTHING!

She didn't call his doctor. Or another nurse. There was no 'Code' because a newborn was in respiratory distress.

Nothing.

Donnie stopped breathing again.

He turned BLACK from lack of Oxygen.

A doctor just happened to walk by the nursery and see Donnie, lying there, Jet Black.

He immediately began CPR and Donnie was quickly Life Flighted to another hospital close by this one.

Donnie's brain was severely deprived of Oxygen for SEVERAL minutes.

The doctors said that Donnie had severe Diffuse brain damage. Diffuse means that it was not localized to any one specific area. It was all over his brain. Dead spots everywhere. He also developed severe Pnumonia in both lungs.

He was in the hospital for months.

The doctors took us aside finally and gave us the bad news.

Donnie would be a vegetable for the rest of his life.

It was their reccomendation that he be instituitonalized and that there was no way medically possible that he would live past the age of 9 or 10.

My parents were faced with a terrible decision.

Give up on him and throw him away in some cold, loveless hopsital for the rest of his life, or bring him home where he could be loved and cared for by his family.

They chose to fight for Donnie.

They told them they were wasting their time. Condemning themselves to a prison at home with a child that would never feed himself, drink for himself, dress himself. go to the bathroom by himself.

Never talk, never walk, never laugh.

Never be anything but a vegetable.

The years have been hard, and sometimes heartbreaking, but let me tell you about this vegetable.

He will be 27 in May.

He feeds himself, dresses himself. Goes to the bathroom by himself. He has a 30 0r 40 word vocabulary and a wicked sense of humor.

His favorite tv show is Wheel of Fortune and I swear he has a huge crush on Vanna White.

He understands Spainish and English, and some of his words are his version of Spainish words our nanny used with him for years.

He follows many commands, both complex and simple.

And loves playing ball more than anything in the world.

He has many, many medical problems, and I know in my heart every year we get him with us is just a bonus.

He has terrible terrible, epilepsy. And unfortunately has a type of seizure a few times a year called Status Epilepsy that will eventually be the cause of his death.

The seizures have taken such a terrible toll that he walks like an old man now. His balance and coordination have begun to worsen as well.

But his life has been full and rich and full of love and laughter because we fought for him, because we did not give up on him.

The doctors said HE IS A VEGETABLE!

HE WILL NEVER WALK,TALK,CRY!

Look at him now.

Fuck, I am jacked up for the rest of my life because of doctor error.

The doctors are not always right.

If we had listened to them, thats exactly what Donnie would be.

A vegetable.

It took years and years and years, but he is a unique and charismatic individual and I love him.

As Terri's parents love her.

As I love my son.

Terri has brain activity. And Terri's parents love her.

Terry left no directive.

And let me tell you about directives. I have a Living Will. Donnie has a Living Will. My mom has a Living Will. My Grandmother has a Living Will.

We have made it clear that we do not wish Artificia Life Support if we are brain dead, or only being kept alive artificially.

Terry left no Living Will.

Plus her medical problems were brought on my complications from a severe eating disorder she had, and any directive she left could have been challenged on the basis of competence.

There was nothing.

But there is someone still alive there in that brain.

Still there, still functioning.

If she left a directive, it would be her husbands duty to see it enforced.

She left none, and my brother is living proof that a ' Vegetative State ' from a permenantly damaged brain IS POSSIBLE!

It happened to Donnie, and it COULD HAPPEN for Terri.

She deserves a chance at life, at whatever quality can be provided.

Most people would say Donnie has no quality of life, he has the mind of a toddler.

Donnie would hug you and kiss you on the cheek and say HI, with his big smile, and you would know he is wonderfully alive.

Terri deserves that chance.

I hope she gets it.
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Old 03-21-2005, 01:50 PM   #22
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eps -

stories like the one of your brother are what keep hope in the medical community alive. fuck, it's because of stories like those that the human spirit is able to derive hope. your brother's story is a miracle in action.

there are stark differences, though - the most glaring of which is the age of onset. another would be the gradual degree of improvement your brother was able to achieve with his intervention. obviously, enough of his brain survived for him to 'become'. it is not the same for everyone, as i'm sure you know.

to take this out of the realm of specifically terri schiavo and into the global implication - any single one of us will somehow be affected by the ruling in this case IF, god forbid, any one of us should have some terrible act of fate befall us. without an advance directive, living will or some written document stating your wishes regarding life sustaining measures, this is exactly what could be happening while you or i exist as an essentially non-functioning, warm body lying on a bed somewhere. it's important to understand that, i think.

the most important lesson you outlined, aside from the lesson of hope, is the need for a living will, or advance directive.
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Old 03-21-2005, 02:12 PM   #23
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Of which I wholeheartedly agree.

If you have strong wishes about your care in the event you are incapacitated, then you MUST make them known.

The argument has been that Terri did not wish artificial life support, however verbal assertions cannot be proved, and if she felt so adamantly about it she should have had a living will. She did not.

Age of onset is certainly a factor, but it remains true that the brain CAN and DOES create NEW Neural Pathways when OLD Neural Pathways are damaged. This is a slow process, without an Advanced Directive who is ANYONE to say Ten years is enough time for her brain to begin the slow work of rewiring itself as best as it can?

The fact remains, she had no directive and she DOES have brain activity.

And as I demonstrated the term ' Persistent Vegatative State ' should be taken with a truckload full of salt.

This simply remains my opinion.

For whatever that is worth.
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Old 03-21-2005, 02:35 PM   #24
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I'm not going to render a judgement here, but i'll say this. Even if she wants to die (and who's really to say for sure), they're going to let her fucking starve to death. I dont think its so bad that they want to terminate her life....its the way in which they'll do it. They will just stop feeding her, hoping it wont take too long. Doesnt something about that seem horribly fucking wrong??? Even if they dose her on pain killers, she will still gush blood from cracked mucus membranes that are so dry you can literally flake them away. Shes going to vomit from the seizures in her stomach, and then her stomach will distend in one last shudder of pain before she dies. Its been studied before, and thats basically how it happens before you die of forced hunger. See, this guy, Josef Mengele, studied and made notes on these sorts of things. Look him up if the name doesnt ring a bell.
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Old 03-21-2005, 03:53 PM   #25
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um... my guess is mengele did other things to his victims if that was the outcome. not to rain on your violent parade - which provided a fuckin' awesome visual, by the way - but that's not the way it happens.

it's a gradual process and i can't imagine any doctor, whether or not they believe she's capable of feeling, processing or otherwise experiencing the sensation of starving - i can't imagine her doc wouldn't provide morphine to help her slip comfortably away. think hospice. think comfort measures. it's not like - ok, take away the food, turn out the light and we'll check on her in a couple of weeks. the opiates will erase any sensation of hunger. the opiates will cloud her mind and make her feel good. the opiates provide pleasure and rest. it won't be as uncomfortable as some are making it out to be. it will be, in fact, rather euphoric. that's the way comfort measures are delivered - you ride out on a wave of morphine.
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