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Old 03-30-2012, 02:18 PM   #51
Versus
 
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Before you say anything else, I want you to tell me what you think its like to go to war for half a decade.
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Old 03-31-2012, 12:14 AM   #52
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My argument is you are trying to demonize him as a bad person who was inevitably going to engage in mass murder. You suggested that his criminal background was a major contributing factor, and you again asserted that he joined the military exclusively to dodge responsibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn View Post
Per your comments about him going into infantry, I would counter that if he was on the run from the law and looking to get into the military as fast as possible he signed up and took whatever position was open and could get him to boot camp the fastest. You know as well as I do that with the delayed entry programme they put off some of the more popular jobs for up to two years, yet let people who want to join and go into infantry ship out in a matter of weeks if not days.
I'll pretend this is relevant in the slightest. This is blatantly untrue. I don't have anything more then anecdotal evidence on hand, but let's be fucking honest: I know a lot more people who have joined the army then you do.

Anyway. I've gathered something to support my claim that his service was the contributing factor.

4.4

The likely hood more that a combat veteran will commit domestic violence against a spouse or partner than other men.

6.4

The likely hood more that a combat veteran will suffer from post traumatic stress disorder then other men.

2-3

The likely hood more that a combat veteran will suffer from depression, substance abuse, unemployment, and divorce/separation then other men.

21%

The amount of domestic violence in America that would drop without combat veterans.

http://winoverptsd.com/wp/yale-study...buse/#more-339

114

The murder rate higher within a unit returning from Iraq then the city that they returned to.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/27/AR2009072702331.html


19.5 per 100,000

The general American population's suicide rate

20.2 per 100,000

The army's suicide rate.

30%

The number of those suicides that occurred while in combat.

35%

The number of those suicides that occurred after a deployment.

4

The likely hood more that a soldier between the ages 20-24 will commit suicide than a civilian in the same age bracket.

20%

An estimate of how many Afghanistan and Iraq veterans suffer from post traumatic stress disorder.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/fe...suic-f04.shtml

And this is nothing to say about the number of rapes and sexual assault in veterans, or prior to the event, Bales' friend had a leg blown off, was drinking, and having marital problems.

Now I want you to show me how many criminals used theft as a gateway crime to mass murder.

I also still want you to tell me what you think 5 decades of war is like before you saying anything.
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Old 03-31-2012, 02:07 AM   #53
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You have created a strawman argument. I did not say theft leads to mass murder, I merely pointed out the mass murderer in this case had a history of being involved in crimes of moral turpitude.
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Old 03-31-2012, 02:17 AM   #54
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So you're saying his criminal background had nothing to do with his actions?
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Old 03-31-2012, 04:11 AM   #55
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I didn't say that either. I said he has a past of being involved in crimes in which he shows no remorse or care at all for those whose lives he effects. He had no problem in wiping out the life savings of elderly couples, and when given a chance to make it right with restitution he chose not to and added insult to injury.

The again, it might be something more than both of us know right now...

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news...-was-not-alone

Child witnesses to Afghan massacre say Robert Bales was not alone

Quote:
Here are two versions of what happened the night of March 11, when 17 Afghan villagers were shot to death.

First, the Army version: Staff Sgt. Robert Bales, troubled by marriage woes, drunkenly left Camp Belambai, 12 miles from Kandahar, with a pistol and an automatic rifle and killed six people as they slept. Bales then returned to the base and left again for another village, this time killing 11. He acted alone and he admitted to the killings, according to the Army.

Then there is the account that child witnesses provided Yalda Hakim, a journalist for SBS Dateline in Australia. Hakim, who was born in Afghanistan and immigrated to Australia as a child, is the first international journalist to interview the surviving witnesses. She said American investigators tried to prevent her from interviewing the children, saying her questions could traumatize them. She said she appealed to village leaders, who arranged for her to interview the witnesses.

...

“Village elders said several soldiers took part and that there is boot prints in the area,” Karimi told Hakim. He said villagers told him that they saw three or four individuals kneeling and that helicopters were overhead during the rampage.

“To search for him?” Karimi said he asked them.

“No,” he said they told him. “They were there from the very beginning.”
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Old 03-31-2012, 11:00 AM   #56
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I don't understand how you can compare the two. Not feeling remorse for theft (which, by the way, is a large assumption on your part) is irrelevant from the desire to commit mass murder. They are not the same just because you use the word 'crime' to roll them together, and the former cannot be looked upon as evidence to support the latter.

Again, I want you to show me what had a larger impact then his military service.
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Old 04-01-2012, 03:03 AM   #57
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It's not me comparing the two, I am pointing out from a legal aspect in America his previous crimes of moral turpitude will come into play. You can argue all you want about it, but it's a standard used in US courts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_turpitude

Quote:
The concept of moral turpitude escapes precise definition but has been described as an "act of baseness, vileness or depravity in the private and social duties which a man owes to his fellowmen, or to society in general, contrary to the accepted and customary rule of right and duty between man and man."
This will be used against him in court at is one one of the basic tenants of the US legal system.

It's not me, it's the system of government which will be putting him on trail and using this against him. And I am not comparing the two, just pointing out a correlated relationship in his behaviour, which is exactly what the prosecuting attorney will do in court.

If a person can engage in crime of any sort which harms his fellow countrymen and walk away without feeling any remorse, which is judged by his ACTIONS, then under US law he will be judged as the type of person who has no morals and viewed as a person with a criminal history.

This is US law. This is how courts work in America. It's not me who is making these scenarios up out of thin air, I am merely pointing out what is going to happen.

Crimes of moral turpitude can be used in court by the prosecuting attorney to establish patterns. It can be used to extend criminal sentences. It can be used to impeach the testimony of a witness before they even testify.

Check the chart in the above link. It should help you get a better grasp of this legal term and how it is going to come into play.
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Old 04-01-2012, 05:00 AM   #58
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Are you serious, Sternn? Did you even read your own link and what it applies to? That has nothing to do with his trial. Prosecution doesn't say "Well, he was kind of a dick in the past, so I think he did it."

In criminal cases, and especially as something as serious as this, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he is guilty, with this thing we call evidence.

Are you trying to back out of something you said? Because it's really starting to look like that.
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Old 04-02-2012, 12:28 AM   #59
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Did you even bother checking the link?
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Old 04-02-2012, 12:43 AM   #60
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I like how you still say prosecution could still apply it to the defendant charged with a crime. It's not evidence, dude.
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:48 AM   #61
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It's the US legal system. That's how it works. If you don't want to acknowledge it and want to pretend to be intentionally obtuse and ignore how courts work in America, that's your choice, but it doesn't change the fact that in American court previous crimes of moral turpitude effect not only how your are perceived, but also effects the length of sentencing and can be used as evidence against you.

You should go back and read the chart in the link again...

Crimes involving moral turpitude

Category: Crimes Against Property

Fraud:

Making false representation
Knowledge of such false representation by the perpetrator
Reliance on the false representation by the person defrauded
An intent to defraud
The actual act of committing fraud

Evil intent:

Arson
Blackmail
Burglary
Embezzlement
Extortion
False pretenses
Forgery
Fraud
Larceny (grand or petty)
Malicious destruction of property
Receiving stolen goods (with guilty knowledge)
Robbery
Theft (when it involves the intention of permanent taking)
Transporting stolen property (with guilty knowledge)
Damaging private property (where intent to damage

Category: Crimes Committed Against Person, Family Relationship, and Sexual Morality

Abandonment of a minor child (if willful and resulting in the destitution of the child)
Adultery (see INA 101** repealed by Public Law 97-116)
Assault (this crime is broken down into several categories, which involve moral turpitude):
Assault with intent to kill, commit ****, commit robbery or commit serious bodily harm
Assault with a dangerous or deadly weapon
Bigamy
Paternity fraud
Contributing to the delinquency of a minor
Gross indecency
Incest (if the result of an improper sexual relationship)
Kidnapping
Lewdness
Manslaughter:
Voluntary
Involuntary (where the statute requires proof of recklessness, which is defined as the awareness and conscious disregard of a substantial and unjustified risk which constitutes a gross deviation from the standard that a reasonable person would observe in the situation. A conviction for the statutory offense of vehicular homicide or other involuntary manslaughter requires only a showing of negligence will not involve moral turpitude even if it appears the defendant in fact acted recklessly)
Mayhem
Murder
Pandering
Prostitution
**** (including "Statutory ****" by virtue of the victim's age)


As you can clearly see above under US law both are crimes of moral turpitude.

These types of crime establish a criminal past in the US court system and as I have now said a few times, can and will be used by the prosecutor to establish the defendant had a criminal past and will again be used to increase any sentencing that happens.
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:41 AM   #62
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You are so fucking stupid. From your own god damn link.

Quote:
Moral turpitude is a legal concept in the United States that refers to "conduct that is considered contrary to community standards of justice, honesty or good morals." It appears in U.S. immigration law from the nineteenth century. In other common law jurisdictions it is dated or obsolete.

The concept of moral turpitude escapes precise definition but has been described as an "act of baseness, vileness or depravity in the private and social duties which a man owes to his fellowmen, or to society in general, contrary to the accepted and customary rule of right and duty between man and man."

The classification of a crime or other conduct as constituting moral turpitude has significance in several areas of law. First, prior conviction of a crime of moral turpitude (or in some jurisdictions, moral turpitude conduct, even without a conviction) is considered to have a bearing on the honesty of a witness and may be used for purposes of witness impeachment. Second, moral turpitude offenses may be grounds to deny or revoke a professional license such as a teaching credential,[6] license to practice law, or other licensed profession. Third, it is of great importance for immigration purposes, as offenses which are defined as involving moral turpitude are considered bars to immigration into the U.S.
It can be used to impeach a witness. Yes. Irrelevant because Bales is not a witness. It is NOT EVIDENCE. Evidence places a person to a crime. It is a LOGICAL FALLACY to say that:

This is a crime
Bales has committed crime before
Therefore bales has committed this crime

His guilt with another crime is IRRELEVANT to THIS CRIME.

Furthermore, it's not even to be considered because thinking he is a bad person is, AGAIN, IRRELEVANT to his fucking guilt.

Bad people commit crimes
Bales is a bad person
Bales committed this crime

Evidence before the court

Presenting evidence before the court differs from the gathering of evidence in important ways. Gathering evidence may take many forms; presenting evidence that tend to prove or disprove the point at issue is strictly governed by rules. Failure to follow these rules leads to any number of consequences. In law, certain policies allow (or require) evidence to be excluded from consideration based either on indicia relating to reliability, or broader social concerns. Testimony (which tells) and exhibits (which show) are the two main categories of evidence presented at a trial or hearing. In the United States, evidence in federal court is admitted or excluded under the Federal Rules of Evidence.[1]


Here you go, stupid.

Quote:
Rule 404. Character Evidence; Crimes or Other Acts

(a) Character Evidence.

(1) Prohibited Uses. Evidence of a person’s character or character trait is not admissible to prove that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character or trait.

(2) Exceptions for a Defendant or Victim in a Criminal Case. The following exceptions apply in a criminal case:
(A) a defendant may offer evidence of the defendant’s pertinent trait, and if the evidence is admitted, the prosecutor may offer evidence to rebut it;
(B) subject to the limitations in Rule 412, a defendant may offer evidence of an alleged victim’s pertinent trait, and if the evidence is admitted, the prosecutor may:
(i) offer evidence to rebut it; and
(ii) offer evidence of the defendant’s same trait; and
(C) in a homicide case, the prosecutor may offer evidence of the alleged victim’s trait of peacefulness to rebut evidence that the victim was the first aggressor.

(3) Exceptions for a Witness. Evidence of a witness’s character may be admitted under Rules 607, 608, and 609.

(b) Crimes, Wrongs, or Other Acts.

(1) Prohibited Uses. Evidence of a crime, wrong, or other act is not admissible to prove a person’s character in order to show that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character.

(2) Permitted Uses; Notice in a Criminal Case. This evidence may be admissible for another purpose, such as proving motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, absence of mistake, or lack of accident. On request by a defendant in a criminal case, the prosecutor must:
(A) provide reasonable notice of the general nature of any such evidence that the prosecutor intends to offer at trial; and
(B) do so before trial — or during trial if the court, for good cause, excuses lack of pretrial notice.
http://federalevidence.com/rules-of-evidence#Rule404
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Couldn't rest, nah nigga I was stressed
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:20 PM   #63
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Man Sternn, the last person I ever saw to do that much cherry picking was George Bush looking for evidence of mass destruction.

See? You're a true American.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:14 AM   #64
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While you were shipping off to Afghanistan, at your age I was taking pre-law @ RU, which is where I got most of my degrees. I would love to stay here and dissect your skewed, incorrect, views of the US court system and it's contained doctrine, and I could all day, but this is a futile point as you clearly have no grasp of the material and are bending what you read to meet your own views.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you choose to believe, or myself either for that matter, as it will have no effect on how things transpire inside the court room.

I would think though you of all people would be supporting the idea that this man is guilty and should be punished, for two reasons actually.

First, have you not seen all of the former veterans who have came out publicly on the news condemning this man? Not only for his heinus actions but for also trying to perpetuate the idea that all veterans are 'broken' and should be treated as victims. This stereotype led to a whole generation of Vietnam vets not being able to get jobs and to them being treated as second class citizens after they returned home. This case is making international headlines and furthering that very same stereotype. No one wants a potential crisis on their staff. All it would take is once incident and you could lose your business, or even worse, someone could get shot. Yes, the reality of say a veteran freaking out on a customer and attacking them or getting fired and coming back to shoot everyone is actually quite low, but with this sort of press going around and so many people trying to 'justify' it, it turns the public off to his plight, and the plight of anyone else in the same situation. They tune out and just write you all off as crazy and a potential threat, especially if the courts confirm that he is not guilty because he is crazy, because of what he experienced. It taints him, you, and anyone else returning from the Middle East. Don't take my word for it, ask the Vietnam vets.

Second, and most importantly, what do you think is going to happen if they let him walk? You are there right? You think the people in that country are going to let him walk away? They will just shrug their shoulders and say thats it then? If that happens, it will be the best thing to happen to the Taliban in YEARS from a PR standpoint. They will have new recruits lining up to take action against, well, YOU. They will also want to make a statement, a big bloody, bold statemnt which means they will definately be out trying to kill as many American soldiers they can. The feeling you say patriots got in America when they watched 9-11? Yeah, the Aghanis will have the same sense of patriotism taking up arms against you when they see there is no justice for their people, and the same desire to go out and get some payback.

If I were you, I would be hoping he does get convicted, because if he walks it means more of your friends are going to die, and it also means when you do make it back stateside people are going to view you in a much different light.
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:12 AM   #65
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So now I can't read, apparently. The plight of the veteran worsens everyday.
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:08 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn View Post
First, have you not seen all of the former veterans who have came out publicly on the news condemning this man? Not only for his heinus actions but for also trying to perpetuate the idea that all veterans are 'broken' and should be treated as victims. This stereotype led to a whole generation of Vietnam vets not being able to get jobs and to them being treated as second class citizens after they returned home. This case is making international headlines and furthering that very same stereotype. No one wants a potential crisis on their staff. All it would take is once incident and you could lose your business, or even worse, someone could get shot. Yes, the reality of say a veteran freaking out on a customer and attacking them or getting fired and coming back to shoot everyone is actually quite low, but with this sort of press going around and so many people trying to 'justify' it, it turns the public off to his plight, and the plight of anyone else in the same situation. They tune out and just write you all off as crazy and a potential threat, especially if the courts confirm that he is not guilty because he is crazy, because of what he experienced. It taints him, you, and anyone else returning from the Middle East. Don't take my word for it, ask the Vietnam vets.

You dumbass, Vietnam vets DID have PTSD, the reason they are treated as people who might go crazy at any time is because of propagandha that held that GIs (who rebelled while over in Vietnam and protested against the war when home) weren't sane when they opposed the war, and the emergence of the understanding of PTSD further perpetrated that the army didn't order the massacres, it was just crazy GIs who went nuts. But the thing is, when you witness violence on a large scale, you're going to have to bear it. The Haditha massacre was triggered after a comrade got blown up. In Vietnam, McNamara ordered a body count, every dead Vietnamese looked good on you, so soldiers were pushed to kill anyone. These things happen in war because THATS WHAT WAR IS. Violence in a grand scale that can turn anyone, ANYONE, to even more senseless violence than what is state sanctioned.

Its the naive attitude that only bad people get PTSD or end up on a massacre that allows us to go to war again and again expecting different results.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:15 PM   #67
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I think I would be horrified if Sternn actually did tell me what he thinks war is like, but I also suspect that I wouldn't be able to understand it because my reading comprehension is so low.
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Couldn't rest, nah nigga I was stressed
Had me creepin' 'round corners, homie sleepin' in my vest.


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Old 04-03-2012, 08:52 PM   #68
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Dude. Listen to Sternn. If this man gets the help he needs, religious extremists are going to get extreme.
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