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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 09-20-2011, 12:55 AM   #101
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If you think you have primacy over a piece of land to the point where you can call it "mine!", you are unapologetically bigoted towards a minority and exclusively blame them for their circumstances instead of asking what would the socioeconomic context be that put them in their situation, and you cannot understand that nomadic cultures will invariably have no respect for the concept of "private property", then yeah, you're not a marxist.
They choose to live the way they do. There are programmes in the country that give them FREE HOUSES, all the have to do is go accept them. They WANT to live the way they do.

Per the private property issue, in Mexico they don't have gypsys as much as ye have cartels. If the local drug cartel wanted to setup a shop in the back of your grandmothers garden, would you just say 'thats fine, because as a Marxist I don't recognise property rights'?

Your argument is infantile assuming that anyone who protects the place they live from criminals is somehow not able to embrace Marxist ideals.

Seriously, arguing that someone who doesn't want random strangers setting up a drug or explosives manufacturing lab three metres from the table where their family and children eat dinner is somehow wrong for doing so is just daft.
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Old 09-20-2011, 01:01 AM   #102
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Well, in all fairness, I can't really say it would be a problem for me unless I encounter it myself, which I haven't. My experiences with gypsys/travellers has never been that so it's difficult for me to say. I imagine though, that no, I wouldn't especially enjoy having someone living at the bottom of my garden. MY point though, is that it isn't just gyspys who behave in those ways and they shouldn't carry all the blame for those types of behaviour.

It is also fair to say that a number of them end up living on other people's land/gardens because they have nowhere else to go, there is no space anywhere for them and that isn't right either. I don't know a great deal about gypsy/traveller culture but it should be treated with the same respect as any other race or religions is. Which isn't to say you should agree with it but respecting their right to live their own way, as long as they aren't hurting anyone, is not something I would say it is beyond people's ability.
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Old 09-20-2011, 02:31 AM   #103
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Well, in all fairness, I can't really say it would be a problem for me unless I encounter it myself, which I haven't. My experiences with gypsys/travellers has never been that so it's difficult for me to say. I imagine though, that no, I wouldn't especially enjoy having someone living at the bottom of my garden. MY point though, is that it isn't just gyspys who behave in those ways and they shouldn't carry all the blame for those types of behaviour.

It is also fair to say that a number of them end up living on other people's land/gardens because they have nowhere else to go, there is no space anywhere for them and that isn't right either. I don't know a great deal about gypsy/traveller culture but it should be treated with the same respect as any other race or religions is. Which isn't to say you should agree with it but respecting their right to live their own way, as long as they aren't hurting anyone, is not something I would say it is beyond people's ability.
You seem to be mixing two totally different arguments here. I could care less how people choose to live their lives. I do care however when someone sets up their own residence, quite literally on my front door step. I care even more when they then decide to run an illegal operation from the residence they have setup upon my legal abode, where my family reside.
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Old 09-20-2011, 02:44 AM   #104
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I don't see it as two different arguments, more just picking up points that have been raised in previous posts. It's understandable that you wouldn't want someone running an illegal operation at the bottom fo your garden, I wouldn't want that either, hell I don't even like the fact that my next door neighbours are drug dealers. All I'm saying is, that it isn't just gypsys/travellers who engage in this sort of behaviour and it isn't right to say it is only them. If people don't want them illegally setting up home on their property, then they need to understand that these families need somewhere to go to. If there is nowehere for them to go and live legally then they will just set up wherever there's space. I don't know the answer but I'm sure there must be better ways of dealing with these issues than just kicking them out of areas because all that does is force them to move on and cause the same problems elsewhere. Or is it a case of out of sight, out of mind?
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Old 09-20-2011, 08:42 AM   #105
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They choose to live the way they do. There are programmes in the country that give them FREE HOUSES, all the have to do is go accept them. They WANT to live the way they do.
Surely that's proving the point somewhat - you are obviously right, they don't want to live in static settlements, but why should they have to? Why should they take up an offer to something that goes against one of the fundamental aspects of their life and culture??

They want to live as a travelling community, true, and to preserve their cultural and religious beliefs, true.
I would debate whether they want to be ostracised by the masses, accused of pissing on the roads, thieving, making themselves unwelcome, etc etc etc.


I knew a group of travellers who attended (when they were in the area) the same school as I did.
They had an agreement with a local farmer that they could stay on his land and pay rent.

They amount of unfounded rumours and violence directed towards these kids and their families just because they were travellers was fucking disgusting. I know that there is a reason for the stereotype, but I would point out that the "problem" of travellers is limited to certain groups, not all, and that to go on about them camping in your backyard manufacturing explosives is the sort of shite that ends up in the daily mail mate, not exactly known for its lefty views...
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:10 AM   #106
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Per the private property issue, in Mexico they don't have gypsys as much as ye have cartels. If the local drug cartel wanted to setup a shop in the back of your grandmothers garden, would you just say 'thats fine, because as a Marxist I don't recognise property rights'?
Wow, do gypsies really kill seven people a day on average in your country?
Do they buy out government officials?
Do they hang up mangled people from bridges to send out a message?
Do they steal teenage girls to sell them into prostitution?


And you call MY argument infantile? You ignorant dipshit.
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You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:44 AM   #107
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Sternn, you're a fucking racist asshole. You think Mexico is the only country with drug cartels and slavery?
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:58 AM   #108
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No. You cannot blame him for that, at all.
He's saying that gypsies are just like drug cartels. The stupidity of his comment is exactly the opposite of what you're claiming he said.
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You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
real classy
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:54 PM   #109
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No. You cannot blame him for that, at all.
He's saying that gypsies are just like drug cartels. The stupidity of his comment is exactly the opposite of what you're claiming he said.
Are you sure? Wouldn't be the first time I read something completely wrong in the last two days. Fuck, I'll take your word for it. Sorry, Sternn, I apologize.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:46 AM   #110
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No. You cannot blame him for that, at all.
He's saying that gypsies are just like drug cartels. The stupidity of his comment is exactly the opposite of what you're claiming he said.
Thats not what I am saying exactly either.

I was making a comparison of between one group of people moving on to the property where you live and engaging in activity that could have detrimental effects on you and your family, and another group.

I don't think gypsies are anything like cartels, but my point was if you think my views on travellers living 'illegally' on my property is bad because it means I believe in property rights then how would you in your country feel if some group did the same.

The question still stands, I was using cartels as an example. Your assertion that my statement somehow disqualifies me from being a Marxist because I don't want random people of any sort putting a trailer in my back garden (back yard for ye stateside) and setting up shop.

I was just posing the question to you using local terms, sure a bit more extreme, but under the precedent you set which is acknowledging any property rights somehow disqualifies you to believe in Marxist principles would still hold true no matter which group you put into your scenario.

Are you really OK with anyone from gypsies to criminals to foreign invaders just quite literally putting a trailer or caravan on your driveway and calling it home? Throwing their rubbish literally on your doorstep?

I understand what your views on home ownership and land ownership are, but there is reality as well. Even if all land was owned by the people, it still wouldn't mean anyone at any time can just plant a flag and live wherever they want. There will still be boundaries.

Until the country adopts a more communal land ownership policy you can't expect people to adopt such principles on a local level. I pay for water, rubbish removal, electric, etc. If someone moves into my garden and parks a trailer and starts living here, I would have real-world expenses to cover associated with them. Taking care of my family and providing for them comes first and can't afford to pay for someone elses water usage, rubbish removal, heating, and electricity. To ignore that seems like you are being intentionally obtuse about the realities of the discussion.
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Old 09-21-2011, 12:01 PM   #111
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I don't see the big deal. Gypsies appear to be rather clean and they fulfill a necessary part of the workforce that most people would not want or have the ability to perform.
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Old 09-26-2011, 10:49 AM   #112
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Compulsory ID laws and integrated police through out the EU would fix this. That way if you get nabbed in Ireland and jump bail you'll get picked up the next time you get arrested and they'll know who you are and that you jumped bail. It surprises me you don't need an ID to do anything over there. Your already allowed to travel between the various EU states without passports so getting the police to work together shouldn't be that hard or illogical.

The fact that they intimidated the security company's is frankly disturbing. What kind of wanky company's do they have over there? Its private property, get some blackwater style company with balls to toss those people off the property.
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