Gothic.net News Horror Gothic Lifestyle Fiction Movies Books and Literature Dark TV VIP Horror Professionals Professional Writing Tips Links Gothic Forum




Go Back   Gothic.net Community > Boards > Politics

Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-10-2011, 12:30 AM   #1
CptSternn
 
CptSternn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,587
Prisons offer special dorms for veterans



http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,4754325.story

Quote:
Veterans Day is a holiday that honors all who have served in the U.S. armed forces — including those who have run into trouble after the end of their service.

In that spirit, the state's Department of Corrections this week has opened special dormitories for incarcerated vets at several prisons around the state.

Veterans whose service has been verified and who are within three years of being released are eligible. Only inmates who volunteer are selected to live in the dorms.

One of the main ideas behind the program is to "congregate as many inmates as possible in one area where the V.A. could meet with them and discuss the programs available to them," said DOC spokeswoman Jo Ellyn Rackleff.

Life in the dorms differs from standard prison life in several ways, including daily flag raising and retiring ceremonies and the use of military standards in maintaining inmates' clothing, bunks and living areas. Staff in the dorms have military backgrounds as well.

Inmates in the dorms have access to academic and vocational programs, and can receive counseling for Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder.

Approximately 6,700 inmates in Florida prisons — out of a total population of 101,000 — are veterans, according to Rackelff.

The dormitories are at five prisons: Santa Rosa, Gulf, Martin, Sumter and Lowell correctional institutions. The nearest is Lowell, which is in Ocala. Each unit can house about 400 inmates.

There are no current plans to expand the program to prisons closer to Orlando.

"The military emphasizes pride, character and integrity," DOC Secretary Ken Tucker said in a statement. "By housing veteran inmates in the same dorm before their release from prison, they can work together to recapture some of those qualities, while also learning about programs and benefits available specifically for veterans."
How very patriotic.
CptSternn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2011, 10:00 AM   #2
Versus
 
Versus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,812
What are your thoughts, Sternn?
__________________
Woke up with fifty enemies plottin' my death
All fifty seein' visions of me shot in the chest
Couldn't rest, nah nigga I was stressed
Had me creepin' 'round corners, homie sleepin' in my vest.


-Breathin, Tupac.
Versus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2011, 10:36 AM   #3
Solumina
 
Solumina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cali
Posts: 8,030
I think it could be a really good idea as so many of the vets who end up incarcerated get there because they were unable to adjust back to civilian life or because they are suffering from psychological conditions resulting from their service (and many end up self medicating and/or having somewhat uncontrollable bouts of rage) so, if nothing else this gives them a better opportunity to get the help that they need, I'll go more into what I think about enforcing military standards of dress and such when I have more time (I have to leave for work in about 15 minutes and I'm still in my pjs).

I'm curious to know which veteran inmates would qualify for this, it seems like it is designed for those who are serving shorter sentences but it doesn't specify.
__________________
Live a life less ordinary
Live a life extraordinary with me
Live a life less sedentary
Live a life evolutionary with me
-Carbon Leaf
Solumina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2011, 12:13 AM   #4
CptSternn
 
CptSternn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Versus View Post
What are your thoughts, Sternn?
It's the same cycle that has been going on since Vietnam. The US government does not care about the troops. When they are no longer on the battlefield, the quality of care they receive drops to almost nil.

It reminds me of what the same conservatives do to unborn babies. Before they are born, they spend hundreds of millions of dollars and put tens of thousands of man hours into saving them. The minute they leave the womb the same people could care less about them, and pull any resources that could help the exact same person.

Same with the military. While on the battlefield they get the best medical care and access to the best resources money can buy. Once thats over, they don't want to hear from you, and God forbid you don't have a family to claim your remains as they will just chuck you in a landfill and move on.

The hypocrisy is astounding. Why anyone would support such politicians is beyond me sure.

Then there also is the issue with the training and how they do it in America. Compared to military training elsewhere in the world, it still stands alone. There is a lot less breaking down of individuals in the European military, less situations where the person is made to feel belittled. The chain of command still exists, but without the same stranglehold on the power structure. This method of training will inevitably lead to criminal activity within certain individuals due to the aspects which it instills.

Then there is the isolation. To keep up public support for wars these days the US government pretty much invokes a media blackout. A few stories here and there, but for the most part the average America is shielded from what is happening. They don't see graphic images, they don't see coffins coming home. The average America is not asked to sacrifice anything and the whole ordeal with a few limited exceptions is deleted from the public view. That creates a whole new set of psychological issues for troops, knowing their service is being intentionally removed from society, like what they are doing is somehow wrong or that the average America might not agree with their mission if they actually knew what was happening on the ground.

Improper training combined with a complete lack of caring and such isolation leads to what we are seeing now and have been seeing for decades.

People snap, for good reason. I expect it to get much worse in the future as the middle class is being erased in America and that includes the troops and their families. Top off all I mentioned above with the fact many will come home to no jobs and their homes being taken from them and you set the stage for quite an explosive situation.
CptSternn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2011, 12:45 AM   #5
Solumina
 
Solumina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cali
Posts: 8,030
So those are your thoughts on military training and such but you didn't really say anything about these "dorms" for vets.
__________________
Live a life less ordinary
Live a life extraordinary with me
Live a life less sedentary
Live a life evolutionary with me
-Carbon Leaf
Solumina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2011, 03:18 AM   #6
Versus
 
Versus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,812
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solumina View Post
So those are your thoughts on military training and such but you didn't really say anything about these "dorms" for vets.
Damn, you beat me to it.

But pretty much, yeah. I meant "What are your thoughts on the article you posted?"
__________________
Woke up with fifty enemies plottin' my death
All fifty seein' visions of me shot in the chest
Couldn't rest, nah nigga I was stressed
Had me creepin' 'round corners, homie sleepin' in my vest.


-Breathin, Tupac.
Versus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2011, 10:03 AM   #7
Acharis
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 729
Hmm...

Pros: Structure, a familiar environment/routine, possible camaraderie. Other veterans who can understand what they went through, ie less stigma and more chances to discuss.

Cons: Veterans may dwell together on distressing war experiences.The rage and interpersonal difficulties that come with PTSD (in the ones that have it) could exacerbate things when veterans are grouped to live closely together.

Also the rigid structure might mirror any previous stresses of the military, or make it even more difficult to adjust back to the general community after release.



I'd be interested to see how it turns out.

But I do think this course of action is missing the wood for the trees. ie. If the number of vets in prison is so high that the volunteers-near-release alone can fill a dorm, there's a deeper problem.

Ps. The schmaltzy 'patriotism' angle fucks me right off, and a designated dormitory in prison is no substitute for actual support or health care.
Acharis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2011, 10:42 AM   #8
Saya
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn View Post

Then there also is the issue with the training and how they do it in America. Compared to military training elsewhere in the world, it still stands alone. There is a lot less breaking down of individuals in the European military, less situations where the person is made to feel belittled. The chain of command still exists, but without the same stranglehold on the power structure. This method of training will inevitably lead to criminal activity within certain individuals due to the aspects which it instills.
There's a reason its like that though. In WWI they found that men isolated in trenches wouldn't fire their guns since no one was around to judge them for not shooting. The firing rate was something like 15%. By the time they tweaked their training, in the Vietnam War the problem was mostly gone. The training is meant to instill a sense of brotherhood with your fellow soldiers and to obey, so you will shoot even if no one is looking. The point of any soldier in any military around the world is ultimately to kill and to die, how they get them to the point where they are willing to do both is pretty fucked up no matter what country is doing it.

Quote:
Then there is the isolation. To keep up public support for wars these days the US government pretty much invokes a media blackout. A few stories here and there, but for the most part the average America is shielded from what is happening. They don't see graphic images, they don't see coffins coming home. The average America is not asked to sacrifice anything and the whole ordeal with a few limited exceptions is deleted from the public view. That creates a whole new set of psychological issues for troops, knowing their service is being intentionally removed from society, like what they are doing is somehow wrong or that the average America might not agree with their mission if they actually knew what was happening on the ground.
Not quite. Many many many journalists were embedded with Afghanistan troops and Iraqi troops. There was plenty of coverage of soldier deaths. And while mostly it didn't get graphic unless you were watching independent media (which is a whole other issue), its not like there was a media black out. It was just a disgusting display of militarism from most major news sources, but the coverage was there.

Quote:
Improper training combined with a complete lack of caring and such isolation leads to what we are seeing now and have been seeing for decades.

People snap, for good reason. I expect it to get much worse in the future as the middle class is being erased in America and that includes the troops and their families. Top off all I mentioned above with the fact many will come home to no jobs and their homes being taken from them and you set the stage for quite an explosive situation.
Improper training was when we gave children guns and shoved them off to war. Again, from WWI we learned there are only so many combat days you can see before you snap. Its not an American issue, its a issue all countries have to face, that war is horrific and most people just can't deal with it. The American way of dealing with it is to instill obedience, camaraderie, and violence. And so far its a huge improvement from the point of view of getting soldiers to kill and not having them snap quite as easily.

That's all quite off topic, but I do agree that setting up a nice prison dorm is pretty miserable. "We expect you to kill, and if you survive your enemy, and don't kill yourself, or end up freezing to death when you're homeless, well, we have a nice dorm in prison for you!"
Saya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2011, 01:01 AM   #9
CptSternn
 
CptSternn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,587
The focus shouldn't be on the dorm or how good the accommodations there are, the issue is how is it so many people who made it through the military selection and training process and then did service for their respective country now find themselves incarcerated at such a large rate they are building special dorms in prisons for all the ex-service members.

@Saya

The embedded journalists did little to get the story out there. They were window dressing. Americans never saw violence on their tellies like was show elsewhere around the world. The first coffins were not shown until years after the war had begun, and even then they pictures were secreted out into the public domain.

To this day people are dying there and you don't even see a smallest bit of coverage unless it is some special day like veterans day or memorial day over there.

The government actively hid these wars as not to lose public opinion. As long as the average Joe Soap in America wasn't directly effected and didn't see the line of bodies coming home on their TV, they wouldn't start organising against the war effort.

That practice is still ongoing.
CptSternn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2011, 02:17 AM   #10
Renatus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Back in Wisconsin(thinking about invading the south)
Posts: 3,693
It seems to me that the media is covering it pretty well including the body count, and people have been protesting against the war effort. There were even protesters camped out across the street from Bush's house. On top of that with the internet we have plenty of websites providing body counts, as well as information directly from the horse's mouth from soldiers talking directly with civilians at home, including our own Versus.
__________________
"The chaos of the world viewed from a distance reveals perfection."- me

"Never overestimate the intellect of someone so foolish that they would exploit and perpetuate stupidity in the people around them, for they create their own damnation as they tear out and sell the pillars that support society as a whole, bringing it crashing down upon them."-me

“I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.”- Einstein
Renatus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2011, 06:17 AM   #11
Versus
 
Versus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,812
My polite courtesy of silence has expired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn View Post
It's the same cycle that has been going on since Vietnam. The US government does not care about the troops. When they are no longer on the battlefield, the quality of care they receive drops to almost nil.

Same with the military. While on the battlefield they get the best medical care and access to the best resources money can buy. Once thats over, they don't want to hear from you, and God forbid you don't have a family to claim your remains as they will just chuck you in a landfill and move on.
No. Service members, as well as there families, are offered numerous services before, during, and after combat or other service, such as mental health programs, sexual assault programs, domestic violence prevention and family counseling, substance abuse programs, guidance and tuition assistance with both military and civilian education, as well as an extensive equal opportunity program. There's even a program that provides assistance with something as fucking stupid as smoking.

All of these are completely free to service members.

As well as medical assistance, I'll share some personal insight that you would otherwise never see.

After having only been in the military for 4 years, I have had laser eye surgery, extensive dental work, several types of medication prescribed to me, and been offered disability benefits when I get out.

While I was married, my wife had several problems with mental health, to include multiple suicide attempts. She had been hospitalized several times for it, and even received months of counseling with a therapist and psychologist. My chain of command even allowed me to stay in a barracks room when I felt that I could not safely live with her. She also had her bladder removed. This was all completely free.



The man on the right of this picture was my platoon sergeant when I came to Afghanistan. After a bullet touched his brain and induced a stroke back in july, he went into a coma for 3 weeks. When he woke up, he had lost 90% of his vision, and could only manage to give the doctors a thumbs up. Now he is able to speak simple words, and is moving around again on his own.

The man on the left is the one that I mentioned died in that same firefight.

Sternn, after I just told you everything I and my wife were provided because I am a service member with only a little over 4 years, do you honestly think that the ones who really need help, like those two friends of mine, get anything less?

Quote:
Then there also is the issue with the training and how they do it in America. Compared to military training elsewhere in the world, it still stands alone. There is a lot less breaking down of individuals in the European military, less situations where the person is made to feel belittled. The chain of command still exists, but without the same stranglehold on the power structure. This method of training will inevitably lead to criminal activity within certain individuals due to the aspects which it instills.
No. Here is what army leadership and training actually looks like.

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/Repository/Materials/fm6-22.pdf


All of that bullshit you just said is what you picked up from a fucking movie.

Quote:
Then there is the isolation. To keep up public support for wars these days the US government pretty much invokes a media blackout. A few stories here and there, but for the most part the average America is shielded from what is happening. They don't see graphic images, they don't see coffins coming home. The average America is not asked to sacrifice anything and the whole ordeal with a few limited exceptions is deleted from the public view. That creates a whole new set of psychological issues for troops, knowing their service is being intentionally removed from society, like what they are doing is somehow wrong or that the average America might not agree with their mission if they actually knew what was happening on the ground.
No. If you can't find out what's going on in Iraq and Afghanistan after a quick look through google, netflix, youtube, and BBC, you obviously do not understand that: You simply. Can. Not. Capture. War.
Quote:
Improper training combined with a complete lack of caring and such isolation leads to what we are seeing now and have been seeing for decades.
What's that, Sternn?
__________________
Woke up with fifty enemies plottin' my death
All fifty seein' visions of me shot in the chest
Couldn't rest, nah nigga I was stressed
Had me creepin' 'round corners, homie sleepin' in my vest.


-Breathin, Tupac.
Versus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2011, 09:06 AM   #12
Versus
 
Versus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,812
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn View Post
@Saya

To this day people are dying there and you don't even see a smallest bit of coverage unless it is some special day like veterans day or memorial day over there.

The government actively hid these wars as not to lose public opinion. As long as the average Joe Soap in America wasn't directly effected and didn't see the line of bodies coming home on their TV, they wouldn't start organising against the war effort.

That practice is still ongoing.
The Army Times has printed the face and name of every single service member that has died in Iraq and Afghanistan, and it continues to do so in every single issue. In addition to this, it keeps a running tally of that number which it also prints.

You have to be legitimately ignorant to not know that people die here, even in the vaguest sense.

http://www.militarytimes.com/valor/

But honestly, there isn't a lot going on in either theater that hasn't been talked about in some form or another. Repeatedly. For years. The information is out there. It's just not really news.
__________________
Woke up with fifty enemies plottin' my death
All fifty seein' visions of me shot in the chest
Couldn't rest, nah nigga I was stressed
Had me creepin' 'round corners, homie sleepin' in my vest.


-Breathin, Tupac.
Versus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2011, 11:52 PM   #13
CptSternn
 
CptSternn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,587
If things are so rosy as you put them, then why are there currently more vets incarcerated then ever before and more vets committing suicide than ever before?

If things are as perfect as you say, then what is the causality of the above two issues?

And do you think the US government dumping dead veterans bodies in the local landfill is appropriate?

You are looking at this from your perspective. What you are missing, is the perspective of someone not there. The average American is and has been shielded from the daily violence since the war began. They did not allow coffins to be displayed anywhere. Do you not remember that controversy?

The telly has reduced the war down to nothing. Right now there is no coverage of it at all. Are people still not engaged in war and dying? Then why is it dancing with the stars gets bigger headlines than the current course in Afghanistan right now?

The American public has had to make no sacrifices. Anyone not related to a service member has had to do absolutely nothing. Most could care less and have had a lackadaisical attitude from the start because of the lax tv coverage. If you think anyone outside of service members and their families have been effected in anyway, you are obviously not talking to enough people outside of your own peer group.

If you think the American public has been shown what is going on this whole time, you are diluting yourself. If you think you are going to continue to receive the same treatment from the government you are getting now once your four years or whatever tour you are on is up, you are in for a rude awakening.

As we speak the police around the country are engaging war vets who are protesting. Two have been hospitalised in Oakland. One shot in the head with a gas canister, another beaten until he had organ failure by the police.

These events aren't happening because all is well.
CptSternn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 12:07 AM   #14
CptSternn
 
CptSternn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,587
A few links...

Pentagon Rethinks Its 18-Year Ban on Photos and Videos of Coffins Bearing War Dead Home

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...021601480.html

Concern grows over epidemic veteran suicide rate

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/0...c-veteran.html

One U.S. veteran attempts suicide every 80 minutes: Hidden tragedy of Afghanistan and Iraq wars

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...Iraq-wars.html

Across America, Deadly Echoes of Foreign Battles

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/us/13vets.html

Fallen Marine

http://www.ap.org/fallen_marine/

Bearing The Cost Of War

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...-war?page=show

The Unseen Wars

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...371411,00.html

Censoring The War

http://sites.google.com/site/maurice...he-war-in-iraq
CptSternn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 12:45 AM   #15
Versus
 
Versus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,812
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn View Post
If things are so rosy as you put them, then why are there currently more vets incarcerated then ever before and more vets committing suicide than ever before?
Things are not rosy, and I did not say they were. My immediate guess to what the cause is of both those questions that there are simply more vets out there. The U.S. military has undergone several surges and draw downs since 2001 and the increased number of veterans exacerbates the already large percentage of vets who become criminals or commit suicide in comparison to the civilian sector.

Quote:
If things are as perfect as you say, then what is the causality of the above two issues?
I did not say that things are perfect and I do not know what the cause is. Maybe Saya could help you with that. It is interesting to feel the effects, though. I consider suicide on a weekly basis and I really can't explain why.

Quote:
And do you think the US government dumping dead veterans bodies in the local landfill is appropriate?
Absolutely not. That, however, was a military decision and not something the U.S. Government decided to do because they don't care. You drew that conclusion on your own. The air base was given jurisdiction over the process, and as sometimes happens in the military, they fucked it up. Completely irrelevant.

Quote:
You are looking at this from your perspective. What you are missing, is the perspective of someone not there. The average American is and has been shielded from the daily violence since the war began. They did not allow coffins to be displayed anywhere. Do you not remember that controversy?
My perspective isn't one of someone inside the military, it's one of someone is knowledgeable about the military. I concede that it wasn't broadcast very in-depth, but honestly, what is with American mainstream media? From a relative standpoint, it was.
Quote:
The telly has reduced the war down to nothing. Right now there is no coverage of it at all. Are people still not engaged in war and dying? Then why is it dancing with the stars gets bigger headlines than the current course in Afghanistan right now?
It's because OEF is a slow process, and there isn't anything relating to the big picture that happens every single day. It's not news when Joe Blow gets blown up by an EFP, and you can only talk about the overall operational strategy so much.
Quote:
The American public has had to make no sacrifices. Anyone not related to a service member has had to do absolutely nothing. Most could care less and have had a lackadaisical attitude from the start because of the lax tv coverage. If you think anyone outside of service members and their families have been effected in anyway, you are obviously not talking to enough people outside of your own peer group.
I know that most people have not been affected in any way. That is exactly why I do what I do; So they never will be.

Quote:
If you think the American public has been shown what is going on this whole time, you are diluting yourself.
Yes. Because I have no fucking idea what has been going on in Iraq and Afghanistan, and it's ridiculous for me to verify that. Thank you, Sternn. I'm so glad we have your armchair perspective to enlighten us.

Quote:
If you think you are going to continue to receive the same treatment from the government you are getting now once your four years or whatever tour you are on is up, you are in for a rude awakening.
I'm not going to respond to this because I already did, and you refuse to acknowledge what's right in front of you.

Quote:
As we speak the police around the country are engaging war vets who are protesting. Two have been hospitalised in Oakland. One shot in the head with a gas canister, another beaten until he had organ failure by the police.
Oakland police are not representative of my government, Sternn.

Quote:
These events aren't happening because all is well.
What events?
__________________
Woke up with fifty enemies plottin' my death
All fifty seein' visions of me shot in the chest
Couldn't rest, nah nigga I was stressed
Had me creepin' 'round corners, homie sleepin' in my vest.


-Breathin, Tupac.
Versus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 12:49 AM   #16
Versus
 
Versus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,812
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn View Post
A few links...

Pentagon Rethinks Its 18-Year Ban on Photos and Videos of Coffins Bearing War Dead Home

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...021601480.html

Concern grows over epidemic veteran suicide rate

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/0...c-veteran.html

One U.S. veteran attempts suicide every 80 minutes: Hidden tragedy of Afghanistan and Iraq wars

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...Iraq-wars.html

Across America, Deadly Echoes of Foreign Battles

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/us/13vets.html

Fallen Marine

http://www.ap.org/fallen_marine/

Bearing The Cost Of War

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...-war?page=show

The Unseen Wars

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...371411,00.html

Censoring The War

http://sites.google.com/site/maurice...he-war-in-iraq
I'll look at these in a minute, though I have a distinct feeling that I already know what I'm going to see.
__________________
Woke up with fifty enemies plottin' my death
All fifty seein' visions of me shot in the chest
Couldn't rest, nah nigga I was stressed
Had me creepin' 'round corners, homie sleepin' in my vest.


-Breathin, Tupac.
Versus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 01:43 AM   #17
Renatus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Back in Wisconsin(thinking about invading the south)
Posts: 3,693
What I'm curious is, how is he finding all this info from media sources, if the media is supposedly being censored? How is it hidden when it is so easily available?
__________________
"The chaos of the world viewed from a distance reveals perfection."- me

"Never overestimate the intellect of someone so foolish that they would exploit and perpetuate stupidity in the people around them, for they create their own damnation as they tear out and sell the pillars that support society as a whole, bringing it crashing down upon them."-me

“I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.”- Einstein
Renatus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 01:49 AM   #18
Versus
 
Versus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,812
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renatus View Post
What I'm curious is, how is he finding all this info from media sources, if the media is supposedly being censored? How is it hidden when it is so easily available?
Because his idea of hidden or censored is anything that is not on the television everyday.
__________________
Woke up with fifty enemies plottin' my death
All fifty seein' visions of me shot in the chest
Couldn't rest, nah nigga I was stressed
Had me creepin' 'round corners, homie sleepin' in my vest.


-Breathin, Tupac.
Versus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 02:21 PM   #19
KissMeDeadly
 
KissMeDeadly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 323
Can I just pop in with a little note about something that irks me about the general flow of the argument here?

It seems like everyone is assuming soldiers are treated like complete jack shit.

My cousin joined the Marines, and, while he is a total douchnozzle, they did a whole fuck of a lot that helped him get his shit together in a way that I don't think he could have done without.

First off, they are paid rather handsomely considering all the time living on barracks is basically free, so, they are already providing free food and lodging, then they give you training and excersize, as well as decent relaxation time...I mean, it worked out for him. He's out, honorably discharged, he has a really nice nest-egg for his new-born son, he gets healthcare from the VA (It's not the best but it's free - a whole lot better than what I get (No insurance at all). They paid for him to go to college, and while he's working as a CNA (I certification he got while in college) he has a masters in business managment (Something like that - I don't know what specific degree it is), he has prospects. He's way more likely to find a decent job than a whole lot of people. The fact that he is a veteran actually helped a lot in getting the job he has.

The vets that are in jail though...they did something to get there, you know?

Look I'm not sticking up for them, I just think it's unfair how much bad press they get for not taking care of the soldiers. They totally do.

EDIT: I'll also point out that he is in *great* freaking shape. Dudes got washboard abs, and is on a fantastic diet. Healthiest guy I know. A skill also learned while in the Marines.
KissMeDeadly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 06:11 PM   #20
Renatus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Back in Wisconsin(thinking about invading the south)
Posts: 3,693
Quote:
Originally Posted by KissMeDeadly View Post
Can I just pop in with a little note about something that irks me about the general flow of the argument here?

It seems like everyone is assuming soldiers are treated like complete jack shit.
Nope, Versus is a soldier, and my family has a long history of military service in all branches, my own father is a retired Lt. Colonel. I've been to and seen the conditions at several military bases first hand, including the Great Lakes Naval base which is the sole basic training center for the Navy. I've even been to a mostly decommissioned military base that is now home to a very nice suburban community.

I will note however, soldiers from what I've seen have bad eating habits, while yes they more than work off the calories, they consume a considerable amount of processed food(filled with chemicals/fake). I'm not a fan of MREs either, I've had a few, and they don't have much flavor to me.
__________________
"The chaos of the world viewed from a distance reveals perfection."- me

"Never overestimate the intellect of someone so foolish that they would exploit and perpetuate stupidity in the people around them, for they create their own damnation as they tear out and sell the pillars that support society as a whole, bringing it crashing down upon them."-me

“I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.”- Einstein
Renatus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2011, 08:41 PM   #21
Saya
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,548
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn View Post
If things are so rosy as you put them, then why are there currently more vets incarcerated then ever before and more vets committing suicide than ever before?
The easy explanation is that combat vets are far more prone to PTSD. Its not just an American problem, thousands of Canadian vets are also homeless. War is a horrific thing and no matter what army is fighting it, those who survive are going home with a lot of emotional baggage.

And the thing is, stats include those who never saw combat. Regarding those in prison:

http://www.nchv.org/background.cfm

Quote:
The U.S. Army accounted for 46 percent of veterans living in the United States but 56 percent of veterans in state prison.
In 2004, the percentage of state prisoners who reported prior military service in the U.S. Armed Forces (10 percent) was half of the level reported in 1986 (20 percent).
Most state prison veterans (54 percent) reported service during a wartime era, while 20 percent saw combat duty. In federal prison two-thirds of veterans had served during wartime, and a quarter had seen combat.
Six in 10 incarcerated veterans received an honorable discharge.
Its not surprising so many have served during a wartime since that's when recruitment gets aggressive, but relatively speaking not many have seen combat, so why then are so many soldiers having problems?

I don't think anyone really established anything at this point, but I remember Versus telling me once about a guy he works with who really couldn't take care of himself and probably wouldn't be able to fend for himself in the civilian world. That could be it, they like to recruit young people, and when you're in the army for all your adult life, it must be difficult adjusting to not having the safety nets the army provides for soldiers.
Saya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2011, 09:13 PM   #22
Solumina
 
Solumina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cali
Posts: 8,030
NPR did an interesting broadcast about a month ago and what they found to be a major problem with vets transitioning to the civilian world, especially finding jobs (even though the government has done a lot to try and help them, thought education and incentives for employers) is that most employers do not understand military training and how it could correlate to training and job experience in the civilian world, and as a result their training and experience are undervalued, and in some cases when the vets have left the military they are not technically qualified for the certifications required for the civilian equivalent of the job they have already been doing. They also went into a lot of the social stigma of being a soldier, sure lots of people support the troops but there is also a lot of bias against them because (unlike with past wars) most people don't know any soldiers so it is simply a lack of familiarity, and that is compounded by worries about PTSD and similar conditions, making employers see them as a risk. (I know this isn't directly about soldiers ending up in jail but it does touch upon a lot of relevant issues)

I'll go look and see if I can find a link to it.

Edit: I found it http://www.npr.org/2011/10/10/141213...-civilian-life
__________________
Live a life less ordinary
Live a life extraordinary with me
Live a life less sedentary
Live a life evolutionary with me
-Carbon Leaf
Solumina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2011, 10:16 PM   #23
Versus
 
Versus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,812
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solumina View Post
NPR did an interesting broadcast about a month ago and what they found to be a major problem with vets transitioning to the civilian world, especially finding jobs (even though the government has done a lot to try and help them, thought education and incentives for employers) is that most employers do not understand military training and how it could correlate to training and job experience in the civilian world, and as a result their training and experience are undervalued, and in some cases when the vets have left the military they are not technically qualified for the certifications required for the civilian equivalent of the job they have already been doing. They also went into a lot of the social stigma of being a soldier, sure lots of people support the troops but there is also a lot of bias against them because (unlike with past wars) most people don't know any soldiers so it is simply a lack of familiarity, and that is compounded by worries about PTSD and similar conditions, making employers see them as a risk. (I know this isn't directly about soldiers ending up in jail but it does touch upon a lot of relevant issues)

I'll go look and see if I can find a link to it.

Edit: I found it http://www.npr.org/2011/10/10/141213...-civilian-life
Yeah, that's an accurate assessment of some of the issues veterans face. Before I even looked at the link, the first thing that sprang to my mind was how the army's medical qualifications don't mean anything in the civilian sector. I can't really speak on behalf of individuals who have more technically oriented jobs, like those in the Navy or Air Force, but it's especially hard to translate skill sets, qualifications, and awards to something a civilian employer can understand.

A friend of mine told someone "Staff Sergeant" during a job interview, and she was like "Oh. Cool." They ended up not hiring him, saying that he didn't have the kind of management experience they were looking for. I guess they didn't understand that at age 22 and while in combat, he was responsible for 10 subordinates and equipment valued at millions of dollars.

I can't really comment on any kind of social stigma I've seen. I haven't lived anywhere other then a city with 4 military installations surrounding it since I enlisted, so I haven't been exposed to places and people that aren't used to seeing service members everyday.
__________________
Woke up with fifty enemies plottin' my death
All fifty seein' visions of me shot in the chest
Couldn't rest, nah nigga I was stressed
Had me creepin' 'round corners, homie sleepin' in my vest.


-Breathin, Tupac.
Versus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2011, 11:45 PM   #24
Solumina
 
Solumina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cali
Posts: 8,030
Yeah it is kind of weird, I easily forget about the social stigma when I'm home in Hampton Roads as there is an insanely high military population but when I go visit my friends and family people up there all react very differently to the idea of Jake enlisting, it isn't really anything that they say but you can kind of see it in their faces that they are either thinking "why would anyone want to do that?" as if they think that nobody would enlist if they had any other option or "you poor thing, you're going to be a Navy wife" as if A) that will be the single, defining facet of my existence and B) that it is something that should elicit their sympathy. Those certainly aren't the views of everyone up there but they seem to be held by a surprising number of people.
__________________
Live a life less ordinary
Live a life extraordinary with me
Live a life less sedentary
Live a life evolutionary with me
-Carbon Leaf
Solumina is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:53 PM.